Borescopes

Yep, and that shows there are A&Ps looking to drive up business. We all know that they exist.

But how often do you see people buying a $25k 310B and then have an expensive first annual?

About 90% of the time over the last 10 years there has been on average 6-12 twins on TAP for sale from $20,000-$29.999. I suspect all of them that sold, sold for that price or less. So to answer your question? As many as there were.
 
About 90% of the time over the last 10 years there has been on average 6-12 twins on TAP for sale from $20,000-$29.999. I suspect all of them that sold, sold for that price or less. So to answer your question? As many as there were.

And what's your bet on what percentage of those people who got such a "great deal" had those $40k annuals? My bet would be "as many as there were."
 
Maybe you are missing the sunshine of beautiful San Diego?

You had a thread about wasting your time looking at an engine for your hosed 170. I recommended you consider the STC to upgrade to a Cherokee engine because there are so many more choices to buy them inexpensively. Tom D even posted the STC's available.

It wasn't the only solution to your concern, it was the only one that I had any particular knowledge and I put if forth for your consideration. If you have such trouble with my choice of words maybe I will just ignore your threads and you are welcome to ignore mine.

I speak from a certain perspective....its not the only perspective but it is mine. Agree, do not agree ok I don't really care.

I will always fight against the idea that keeping your maintenance cost down can only be prescribed few only the sorority of licensed mechanics which have a cabal that everyone has to pay canonization too.

But you may feel free to stay on your knees and pucker.
Well, Tony, perhaps I gave you more credit than you deserve.

Your recommendation to do that STC upgrade is completely NOT worth the money that would be required to pull it off.

FWIW, there is no need to sit on my knees....as it turns out, my engine requires a basic teardown, cleaning and re-assembly which is covered by my insurance.
 
I was thinking the same thing.

Just like a borescope is one of many tools, individual A&Ps including Mike Busch are just one of many tools and resources available to owners.

I do not agree with everything Tom D says, just like I don't agree with every single thing Ron Levy puts out when it comes to interpreting FARs (not singling anyone out, just using a couple of prolific examples), but since I have been on this board I have learned alot from both of them along with countless others here....just like I have learned from Mike Busch.

As an owner, you need to take it all in....learn as much as you can about your airplane and make educated decisions. Don't just automatically and categorically discount what someone is telling you because it isn't what you want to hear.

If you ignore the motivations of or the sources of information in your equation then you will be listening to a lot of garbage a fair amount of the time as well. In the Military you get in the habit of listening to the Authority and Command. In the real world it is often quite different from that and you have to first judge the source of the information. All information that you get is not equally balanced.

For example if ten salesman tell you their product is great and 3 customers tell you the product is bad who do you believe? The salesman have a motivation in that they benefit if you believe them. The 3 customers who have already been burned by those salesman have much less to gain by giving you their experiences. The ten salesman are not bad people they might even believe what they say because they are biased and used to making those claims.

Just like news....if your news comes from fox well.....or msnbc.... lets just say it is not fair and balanced.

I'd recommend you research "condition based maintenance in aviation," as well as "infant mortality" and "mechanic induced maintenance/failure."

Condition based maintenance came about when American Airlines (I think it was) had trouble keeping up with their time based maintenance on a fleet of commercial airlines and still had large down time issues.

Infant mortality came into being as they noticed that sometimes when they would replace a perfectly working part with a new one the new one fail immediately after installation and it was obvious that the old part would have run much longer had they left it alone.

Mechanic induced maintenance is another term that came about as even when there wasn't infant mortality of the new part just having the imperfect action of a human messing with something to change, modify, upgrade it introduced a some not so small % of additional failures.

AA began/started/invented condition based maintenance with Drastic reductions in overall down time and maintenance costs. The program was so successful that NASA went to the company and asked for them to consult them start the program at NASA.

This ties into the TBO of engines in that you can run an engine long past TBO for several reasons.... If it ain't broke don't fix it.

In addition to the preflight walk around engine check of no oil leakage, no significant oil usage you have the 100 hr or annual of check the screen for metal and check the filter for metal and oil analysis to determine the particles of metal in the engine oil as a guide of approximate wear. Then you have the boroscope as another prescriptive device to see scoring or burnt issues.

It is not uncommon for the aviation mechanic cabal to attempt to chip away at the condition based maintenance philosophy by critizing condition based maintenance against the proven statistical evidence. You will see them attack boroscoping as in this thread, the old and faithful "well that doesn't tell you nothin bout the bottom" "put new cylinders on a weak bottom puts you in worse shape" or any number of other self serving attacks on weaknesses of oil analysis or waiting till you see metal in the filter or screens......blah, blah, blah......

Obviously I am responding to several threads in this post but then again you referred to several threads I posted in.

Most of my posts are for newbe owners/pilots more than for seasoned guys who figured all this out. Sometimes I might express myself a bit hard in that there is a great deal of noise around this issue and I want to new guys to hear it. When you are new to aviation and ownership you might well be a little romanced by the mechanic cabal.

I realize there are people you can never reach, so let them fall into the clutches of the cabal. But I keep trying to help the new owners. For those of you that find this irritating this is a good time to put me on your ignore list.

And for those who post or repost the propaganda of the cabal, don't be surprised when I slam it and slam it hard.
 
Well, Tony, perhaps I gave you more credit than you deserve.

Your recommendation to do that STC upgrade is completely NOT worth the money that would be required to pull it off.

FWIW, there is no need to sit on my knees....as it turns out, my engine requires a basic teardown, cleaning and re-assembly which is covered by my insurance.

I am not surprised, disappointed nor offended that it won't work out. When I evaluated changing the Cherokee 150hp to 180hp it was going to cost 120% as much as I had paid for the Cherokee.

but you referenced by one sided opinions. I guess I am strange that way. I guess there are a few topics I have two sided opinions on like guns are good and guns are bad?????? But usually I have a single sided opinion. I don't tend to waste much time advocating other peoples opinions not shared by me.

As far as recommending you change engines.....I had no idea what it might cost.
 
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As far as recommending you change engines.....I had no idea what it might cost but then again I had no idea that your 170 was a pile of crap....don't kill the messenger.
Well, I think we have seen Tony's true colors.

I'm sorry I have offended you so. I was simply trying to backup an observation made by Ted, whose opinions I respect. I simply pointed out that you should keep a more open mind and you responded with direct insults.

When you outright insult someone's airplane (that you have never even seen)... Well, your credibility is toast.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
I'm wondering how many "bad posts" Tony can accumulate complaints from on this thread. I count three on this page alone.
 
Well, I think we have seen Tony's true colors.

I'm sorry I have offended you so. I was simply trying to backup an observation made by Ted, whose opinions I respect. I simply pointed out that you should keep a more open mind and you responded with direct insults.

When you outright insult someone's airplane (that you have never even seen)... Well, your credibility is toast.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Agreed, monetary value (or lack there of) does not dictate crap
 
Agreed, monetary value (or lack there of) does not dictate crap

And even if it did, that smells like a RoC violation as a personal insult, which Tony has been throwing around wildly on this page.
 
...It is not uncommon for the aviation mechanic cabal to attempt to chip away at the condition based maintenance philosophy by critizing condition based maintenance against the proven statistical evidence. You will see them attack boroscoping as in this thread...

Paranoid delusions aside Tony, you still have not answered this one simple question: If I poke a $150 videoscope into your cylinder, one that shows normal compression test readings, and see what I "think" is discoloration on the exhaust valve, what is it that you want me to do?

"aviation mechanic cabal" - that deserves a couple of emoticons :hairraise::yikes:
 
And what's your bet on what percentage of those people who got such a "great deal" had those $40k annuals? My bet would be "as many as there were."

Agreed! that is exactly the point or part of the point that they are many $$$ annuals.
 
Thank you I thought it states it all, nicely.

You still have not answered the question Tony:

If I poke a $150 videoscope into your cylinder, one that shows normal compression test readings, and see what I "think" is discoloration on the exhaust valve, what is it that you want me to do?

Conversely, let's say your cylinder is failing it's compression test with a reading of 30/80 and leakage into the exhaust system. Valve staking and an extended engine run fail to change the situation. Now we poke that $150 videoscope in there and see nothing abnormal. What do you want to do?

Rather than go off on another rant about cabals and mechanics conspiring to defraud and fleece unsuspecting owners why don't you just explain,succinctly, why you believe the borescope to be the best diagnostic tool available for determining the condition of reciprocating engine cylinders and valves. And while you're at it how about a link to this empirical data you claim proves it.
 
I sincerely doubt you are sorry about anything. As you state you were merely piling on like a bully.

You guys attack Gieco every post he makes, now you are attacking Aviatingfool and now I am in vogue. Do not think you will pile on gang up and attack me without my fighting back and telling you want I think.
I am somewhat apologetic. My initial response in this thread was not intended to offend you, but to try and get you to respect other's opinions.

As for the others, most of us do not attack Geico, we just give him some ribbing for the fact that he comes across rather over zealous about his RVs. Personally, I actually like the guy and he takes the ribbing well.

You are correct, however, about the Fool. I will fully admit to singling out the negativity and belittling nature of his posts. And that is because I feel strongly that anyone who would personally attack and harass another POA member through either PMs or personal email has absolutely no place here and since that episode, 90% of his posts here have contributed no value whatsoever and I will continue to highlight that negativity.
 
I was drawing a conclusion from several threads the owner stated about his how airplane to come to the conclusion he did not even feel his plane was worth fixing up when he stated he needed an engine, needed a paint job and was looking at buying another used plane instead.
I am afraid you drew your conclusions without actually reading my posts. I had already painted my airplane when the magneto problem took the engine out of commission. And I was never looking at another 170, I had every intention of upgrading to another aircraft before the engine problem came up.
 
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Hmmmmm

Fearless, Ted, Sky, looks like it is time to take the high road. Nothing to be gained here.

Just an old mans thoughts.
 
I am somewhat apologetic. My initial response in this thread was not intended to offend you, but to try and get you to respect other's opinions.

As for the others, most of us do not attack Geico, we just give him some ribbing for the fact that he comes across rather over zealous about his RVs. Personally, I actually like the guy and he takes the ribbing well.

You are correct, however, about the Fool. I will fully admit to singling out the negativity and belittling nature of his posts. And that is because I feel strongly that anyone who would personally attack and harass another POA member through either PMs or personal email has absolutely no place here and since that episode, 90% of his posts here have contributed no value whatsoever and I will continue to highlight that negativity.

I try not to be too thin skinned but when more than one pile on then it becomes a slug fest rather than a conversation.....I am apologetic too. Lets start over.

I do respect about 90% of what they say: Tom, Silver and others as they do have Experience and skills which I do not have. Likewise about 99.9% of Capt Levy.

However I won't take their guff when I feel like they are completely full of crap on some issues. I'd rather set the record straight and let all the browsers read for themselves and make their own minds up rather than let some stale tradition stand. Just like in a court room both sides plea a case and the judge hopefully can see the truth between the arguing parties.

So my staunch rejection of some of their ideas doesn't mean I don't respect other people here, I do. I'd love to go to fly ins and eat hamburgers with just about anyone here. I don't buy 100% of anyone's opinions....If I respected no one elses opinions then what would be the point of coming to chat each night?

Sorry I come across so arbitrary, when I am arguing and standing up for something I feel important and I do get a bit frustrated and short at at times....aka grumpy old men.

Don't ever play monopoly with me. :)
 
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I am afraid you drew your conclusions without actually reading my posts. I had already painted my airplane when the magneto problem took the engine out of commission. And I was never looking at another 170, I had every intention of upgrading to another aircraft before the engine problem came up.

My honest mistake.....didn't read close enough I guess.
 
"You are correct, however, about the Fool. I will fully admit to singling out the negativity and belittling nature of his posts. And that is because I feel strongly that anyone who would personally attack and harass another POA member through either PMs or personal email has absolutely no place here and since that episode, 90% of his posts here have contributed no value whatsoever and I will continue to highlight that negativity."

Who is harassing who here? Throwing rocks in glass houses again.......pity.
 
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