Bonanza down KFLG

I will be paying attention to this sad story.
Flagstaff sits at 7014 elevation and currently DA is 9262 ft.
I mention this because all day I have been researching flying in high altitude because of my planned trip from Florida to Phoenix in October. I didn't want to ask stupid questions that I should probably already know, but the elevation at my home airport is about 28 ft so I don't get much practice and I have never flown my plane over 9,000 much less took off at high altitude.

I know how to calculate additional runway requirements and reduced rate of climb. But what, if any, does the high altitude do to max takeoff payload. Back to the POH I guess.
 
JOhnH said:
I will be paying attention to this sad story.
Click to expand...
Luckily, Oct should be about 10 degrees cooler. Just keep things light, and don't fly into Flag and fuel up. The first time I left there in the Summer, I couldn't believe how long it took to gain altitude. This video shows take-off to the North (I think Bonaza may have been to the South). Note 9300 warning at end of runway (through window).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4CdNP9RNTk
 
This DA should be no problem at all for a properly loaded and running Bonanza. In general, they are overpowered for the airframe, and the slippery design allows them to accelerate quickly once airborne. Of course, all things may not be nominal, but I can climb at > 400FPM from 9000' pretty easy. Of course, having the gear down will make a difference so maybe he never got the gear up clean.
 
Very sad indeed.

After seeing the fire pics, the aviator in me wants to believe they worked hard to do everything they could to avoid the accident. The other part of me hopes they were distracted, playing with the radios, and it all happened instantly.
 
docmirror said:
This DA should be no problem at all for a properly loaded and running Bonanza. In general, they are overpowered for the airframe, and the slippery design allows them to accelerate quickly once airborne. Of course, all things may not be nominal, but I can climb at > 400FPM from 9000' pretty easy. Of course, having the gear down will make a difference so maybe he never got the gear up clean.
Click to expand...


I didn't see anything to indicate which model of bonanza it was.

Some climb better than others.

I was born and raised not far from there, and used to fly into Flagstaff occasionally in both a 1966 172, and my 1960 M–35.

Like someone else pointed out though… don't use Flagstaff as a fuel stop in the summer.
 
JimG. said:
Like someone else pointed out though… don't use Flagstaff as a fuel stop in the summer.
Click to expand...
I don't know that I'd say don't use it as a fuel stop in the summer. You just need to know your airplane how it is loaded and it's performance. I stopped for fuel at FLG a week ago in the Baron in the early afternoon. Topped it off no less.....but it was just me and my bags so it was very doable.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I don't know that I'd say don't use it as a fuel stop in the summer. You just need to know your airplane how it is loaded and it's performance. I stopped for fuel at FLG a week ago in the Baron in the early afternoon. Topped it off no less.....but it was just me and my bags so it was very doable.
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True…

Maybe I should have phrased it as “it may not be the best airport for a fuel stop in the summer”

I have a gut feeling this bonanza was pretty close to maximum takeoff weight today.
 
With only two on board and assuming they weren't packing for three months they should have had a safe reserve of power. I wonder if the pilot was local or transient. Pilots not used to high/hot ops do not know to lean for max power and instead follow the sea level checklist, leaving the mixture full rich.
 
Not flown in there. does the terrain rise or drop off in that direction?
 
TriGear28 said:
Not flown in there. does the terrain rise or drop off in that direction?
Click to expand...

it does rise slightly in the direction they took off

It's been 25 years since I've landed in Flagstaff, so I don't remember just how much it does rise
 
Threefingeredjack said:
Pilots not used to high/hot ops do not know to lean for max power and instead follow the sea level checklist, leaving the mixture full rich.
Click to expand...

This is the first thing I thought of. My partner also has a bonanza. I can't imagine issues climbing out in that thing with 2 on board in normal circumstances with that DA. Also, the witness reporting that "it didn't sound right", made me also think that it was stumbling as it was too rich.

But for the grace of God go I... RIP.
 
JOhnH said:
I will be paying attention to this sad story.
Flagstaff sits at 7014 elevation and currently DA is 9262 ft.
I mention this because all day I have been researching flying in high altitude because of my planned trip from Florida to Phoenix in October. I didn't want to ask stupid questions that I should probably already know, but the elevation at my home airport is about 28 ft so I don't get much practice and I have never flown my plane over 9,000 much less took off at high altitude.

I know how to calculate additional runway requirements and reduced rate of climb. But what, if any, does the high altitude do to max takeoff payload. Back to the POH I guess.
Click to expand...

Rule of thumb on weight - be at least 10% below max gross
Lean. Lean. Lean.

By October, you should'nt have much trouble with the heat at Flagstaff, but Phoenix will still be in the 90s
 
The last time I flew into flagstaff it was January, and it was still a huge decrease in performance. If you're not familiar with high altitude flying flagstaff isn't your place to go excitement with it.
 
JOhnH said:
But what, if any, does the high altitude do to max takeoff payload. Back to the POH I guess.
Click to expand...

The POH probably won't tell you directly how to deal with high DA departures. It might suggest leaning for proper engine operation above 3,000 or 5,000 feet. What it probably won't say is that leaning for best power is required prior to departure. It also won't say that the speed of the world going by will be much faster for the same indicated airspeed when compared to lower elevation operations.

Lean for best power prior to departure. Embrace the fact that TAS is much higher than IAS when the DA's are above 5,000. Okay, the 5,000 is a little arbitrary but understand the meaning behind it. Fly the indicated airspeed no matter what your gut tells you.
 
JOhnH said:
I will be paying attention to this sad story.
Flagstaff sits at 7014 elevation and currently DA is 9262 ft.
I mention this because all day I have been researching flying in high altitude because of my planned trip from Florida to Phoenix in October. I didn't want to ask stupid questions that I should probably already know, but the elevation at my home airport is about 28 ft so I don't get much practice and I have never flown my plane over 9,000 much less took off at high altitude.

I know how to calculate additional runway requirements and reduced rate of climb. But what, if any, does the high altitude do to max takeoff payload. Back to the POH I guess.
Click to expand...

I am in the Denver area. My rule is don't fly in the mountains if winds at passes greater than 25kts and keep it below 90% of gross
 
JOhnH said:
I will be paying attention to this sad story.
Flagstaff sits at 7014 elevation and currently DA is 9262 ft.
I mention this because all day I have been researching flying in high altitude because of my planned trip from Florida to Phoenix in October. I didn't want to ask stupid questions that I should probably already know, but the elevation at my home airport is about 28 ft so I don't get much practice and I have never flown my plane over 9,000 much less took off at high altitude.

I know how to calculate additional runway requirements and reduced rate of climb. But what, if any, does the high altitude do to max takeoff payload. Back to the POH I guess.
Click to expand...

Check out this video I found yesterday on Density Altitude and performance. May answer some of your questions. It goes into what many pilots apparently take for granted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZvBYhUkksw
 
JOhnH said:
I will be paying attention to this sad story.
Flagstaff sits at 7014 elevation and currently DA is 9262 ft.
I mention this because all day I have been researching flying in high altitude because of my planned trip from Florida to Phoenix in October. I didn't want to ask stupid questions that I should probably already know, but the elevation at my home airport is about 28 ft so I don't get much practice and I have never flown my plane over 9,000 much less took off at high altitude.

I know how to calculate additional runway requirements and reduced rate of climb. But what, if any, does the high altitude do to max takeoff payload. Back to the POH I guess.
Click to expand...


Just watch and trust your airspeed indicator. ;)

Lean to best power on take off.

Do NOT land or take off full rich. :no:

Let the plane build up speed and ease it off the runway when it is ready to fly.
 
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JOhnH said:
I will be paying attention to this sad story.
Flagstaff sits at 7014 elevation and currently DA is 9262 ft.
I mention this because all day I have been researching flying in high altitude because of my planned trip from Florida to Phoenix in October. I didn't want to ask stupid questions that I should probably already know, but the elevation at my home airport is about 28 ft so I don't get much practice and I have never flown my plane over 9,000 much less took off at high altitude.

I know how to calculate additional runway requirements and reduced rate of climb. But what, if any, does the high altitude do to max takeoff payload. Back to the POH I guess.
Click to expand...

You get some nice high DA temps right where you are, plus the humidity penalty. Regardless of temp, I'd get a CFI and go to a nice long RWY and do some T.O.s & LDGs at reduced RPM to simulate DA performance using GrWt that you wish and see how long you take to clear a 100 foot obstacle each way.

Simulating high DA on pavement is much more forgiving than gravel or grass, which are rarely of the length needed to do these simulations safely.

As you mentioned, the POH should give you the reduced power settings to make the simulations most realistic.
 
CT4ME said:
Luckily, Oct should be about 10 degrees cooler. Just keep things light, and don't fly into Flag and fuel up. The first time I left there in the Summer, I couldn't believe how long it took to gain altitude. This video shows take-off to the North (I think Bonaza may have been to the South). Note 9300 warning at end of runway (through window).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4CdNP9RNTk
Click to expand...

This old FAA video on Density Altitude is fun:

Baggage helper: "Be careful now, you've got a big load on board."

Female passenger: "you're not talking about ME, now, are you?!?!"

 
TangoWhiskey said:
This old FAA video on Density Altitude is fun:

Baggage helper: "Be careful now, you've got a big load on board."

Female passenger: "you're not talking about ME, now, are you?!?!"

Click to expand...


Those are obviously actors.

No experienced bonanza pilot would put all that luggage in the luggage compartment.:D
 
Geico266 said:
Do NOT land or take off full rich. :no:
Click to expand...

Follow your POH/AFM. Some engines, including my turbocharged engine, specify no leaning above a certain power level (including takeoff power). It still makes full power at 9000' DA.
 
JOhnH said:
I mention this because all day I have been researching flying in high altitude because of my planned trip from Florida to Phoenix in October.
Click to expand...

If the timing's right for you, be sure to come visit with us at the Copperstate Fly-In. You might even have a shot at the "furthest flown" award-- people from Florida have won it before!

http://www.copperstate.org
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Of course they are! Check out his HAT! :rofl:
Click to expand...


It actually looks better than the one my dad wore when he flew back when I was a kid:D

He used to call it his “flying into the sun hat”

Truth be known… it was the only place my mother would let him wear it
 
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