Bonanza crash, KAPA 4/21/2012

bfergie10 said:
What does this mean?
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According to the media..... All planes that fly need a flight plan or they are destined to crash..:confused:

So. even if you wash your plane and make one lap around the pattern to dry it off you need to file a flight plan.:idea:
 
N801BH said:
According to the media..... All planes that fly need a flight plan or they are destined to crash..:confused:

So. even if you wash your plane and make one lap around the pattern to dry it off you need to file a flight plan.:idea:
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Maybe if he filed a flight plan the plane would not have nosed up! :rofl:
 
The media, and the general public seem to think that some sort of permission should be required before flying a plane. Friends and relatives first question often is "Do you have to let anyone know that you are flying to another airport, and get permission to land?" They are incredulous when I say no. Then I typically ask if they need permission to drive their car somewhere, but they don't seem to make the connection.

I think the general belief is that a "Flight Plan" is the permission we need to fly. If we don't file a flight plan, therefore we must be doing something wrong which would add to the probability of a "crash".
 
Anthony said:
The media, and the general public seem to think that some sort of permission should be required before flying a plane. Friends and relatives first question often is "Do you have to let anyone know that you are flying to another airport, and get permission to land?" They are incredulous when I say no. Then I typically ask if they need permission to drive their car somewhere, but they don't seem to make the connection.

I think the general belief is that a "Flight Plan" is the permission we need to fly. If we don't file a flight plan, therefore we must be doing something wrong which would add to the probability of a "crash".
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Just had a non pilot co-worker try to argue with me about why all flights should "require" a flightplan even a short hop to a nearby field...:rolleyes2:

Wish I had thought of the car question:lol:
 
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denverpilot said:
Go grab the newer photos showing the damage from the side and you might change your mind. That Bo won't fly again.
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plane-crash.jpg
 
N801BH said:
According to the media..... All planes that fly need a flight plan or they are destined to crash..:confused:

So. even if you wash your plane and make one lap around the pattern to dry it off you need to file a flight plan.:idea:
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Oh yeah, I'm totally in agreement that any flight made without a flight plan will surely crash. I've just never heard it called a "flight log." I also wasn't aware that "flight logs" were filed with the airport.
:dunno:
 
N801BH said:
According to the media..... All planes that fly need a flight plan or they are destined to crash..:confused:

So. even if you wash your plane and make one lap around the pattern to dry it off you need to file a flight plan.:idea:
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Even if he had filed, I doubt he would have listed his destination as:

"the 8200 block of South Potomac Street." :D
 
denverpilot;888190......[URL said:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=crash[/URL]

Which apparently the pilot did at the hospital. :(
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Now that's funny right there........... I don't care who you are.:lol::lol::rofl:
 
denverpilot said:
"5. Aeronautics . to land in an abnormal manner, usually causing severe damage: The airliner crashed."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/crash

Let 'em know if you want to change it. I didn't write it. :)

Means something different in the Urban Dictionary, though.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=crash

Which apparently the pilot did at the hospital. :(
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So, please reread my post where I stated "It's all a matter of definition" This is the ICAO (I trust you are familiar with them) definition of a forced landing. "An immediate landing, on or off an airport, necessitated by the inability to continue further flight. A typical example of which is an airplane forced down by engine failure." In my limited experience (16500 total hours, 11400 in military fixed and rotor wing) a "crash" is an uncontrolled arrival. You call it what you want, I'll stick to my view. It is not immediately obvious to me why it is so important for you to be the sole arbiter of definitions, but perhaps it originates from your involvement with young members of the CAP. I'm too old to be swayed, and too jaded to be impressed.
 
For those familiar with KAPA, the bonanza is on a trailer over by the key lime hangar.
 
FormanFlyer said:
For those familiar with KAPA, the bonanza is on a trailer over by the key lime hangar.
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Interesting... Usually Beegles gets all the "clean up on aisle 7" messes.... Good chance it was not insured and the owner is picking up the pieces as best as he can.. IMHO.
 
Threefingeredjack said:
So, please reread my post where I stated "It's all a matter of definition" This is the ICAO (I trust you are familiar with them) definition of a forced landing. "An immediate landing, on or off an airport, necessitated by the inability to continue further flight. A typical example of which is an airplane forced down by engine failure." In my limited experience (16500 total hours, 11400 in military fixed and rotor wing) a "crash" is an uncontrolled arrival. You call it what you want, I'll stick to my view. It is not immediately obvious to me why it is so important for you to be the sole arbiter of definitions, but perhaps it originates from your involvement with young members of the CAP. I'm too old to be swayed, and too jaded to be impressed.
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Does ICAO say a forced landing can't also be a crash?

The terms are not mutually exclusive in any way.

A forced landing without damage isn't a crash.

A forced landing with damage, is a crash.

A cloud is also water. Very Zen, as the hipsters would say. ;)

If I go run an aircraft into your car on the ramp in a completely controlled fashion, on purpose, I think you'd say I crashed into your car.

You can do everything right -- under control -- and still "crash" any machine.

There's even an excellent book titled, "How to crash an airplane and survive." Written by Mick Wilson, formerly of the Denver FSDO. It's a fun read. His lecturer that went with it was even more fun, but alas... He retired.

Would it be easier for you if I said "wreck"?

"He did everything right to survive but he still 'wrecked' his airplane."

"He did everything right to survive but he still 'crashed' his airplane."

No difference really. It can still be a "forced landing" too, all at the same time, if it meets the definition of both.

Not sure I get where you're going with the logbook hours. I know we all love our logged flight time numbers, but I'm pretty sure flight time is trumped by Webster's if it's "all a matter of definition". I didn't log my dictionary use over the years. I never suspected I would be challenged to produce that particular logbook. ;)

Leave it to a pilot to bring up flight time as a qualification in reading/writing English language! :rofl: ;)
 
Well, I wrote an email to the OP link (thedenverchanel.com) and registered a complaint. I got an email back and he FIXED THE ARTICLE! Whoo hoo, justice prevailed! ...sort of.

I wrote:

"Why is it important to report there was 'no flight log filed with the tower'?

I'm an ex airline Captain and hold an ATP. I have no idea how to 'file a flight log with a tower'. I assume the article meant a flight plan and I still ask why would that be important? Flight plans are not required to fly."


To which I received from Wayne Harrison -Web Editor:

"Thanks for your email. I've made the correction and forwarded your email to the person who wrote the story."



And I just checked too. "Flight Log" has been removed!!! Victory!! One small step for a pilot...One major leap for journalism.
 
Captain said:
Well, I wrote an email to the OP link (thedenverchanel.com) and registered a complaint. I got an email back and he FIXED THE ARTICLE! Whoo hoo, justice prevailed! ...sort of.

I wrote:

"Why is it important to report there was 'no flight log filed with the tower'?

I'm an ex airline Captain and hold an ATP. I have no idea how to 'file a flight log with a tower'. I assume the article meant a flight plan and I still ask why would that be important? Flight plans are not required to fly."


To which I received from Wayne Harrison -Web Editor:

"Thanks for your email. I've made the correction and forwarded your email to the person who wrote the story."



And I just checked too. "Flight Log" has been removed!!! Victory!! One small step for a pilot...One major leap for journalism.
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Good job. Your next mission should you decide to accept it, is to explain that a "stall" has nothing to do with the engine. :)
 
dennyleeb said:
One more v-tail down.
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Shoot and I was in one a few weekends ago. Someone told me they were the old doctor killer before the cirrus. That and the yoke is only on one side with a pivot. Strange. Plus he took out my side's rudders too. So I had no controls.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Shoot and I was in one a few weekends ago. Someone told me they were the old doctor killer before the cirrus. That and the yoke is only on one side with a pivot. Strange. Plus he took out my side's rudders too. So I had no controls.
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Did he say if that was to improve safety of flight?;)
 
If you had been flying the plane, how would you have classified it?

denverpilot said:
Does ICAO say a forced landing can't also be a crash?

The terms are not mutually exclusive in any way.

A forced landing without damage isn't a crash.

A forced landing with damage, is a crash.

A cloud is also water. Very Zen, as the hipsters would say. ;)

If I go run an aircraft into your car on the ramp in a completely controlled fashion, on purpose, I think you'd say I crashed into your car.

You can do everything right -- under control -- and still "crash" any machine.

There's even an excellent book titled, "How to crash an airplane and survive." Written by Mick Wilson, formerly of the Denver FSDO. It's a fun read. His lecturer that went with it was even more fun, but alas... He retired.

Would it be easier for you if I said "wreck"?

"He did everything right to survive but he still 'wrecked' his airplane."

"He did everything right to survive but he still 'crashed' his airplane."

No difference really. It can still be a "forced landing" too, all at the same time, if it meets the definition of both.

Not sure I get where you're going with the logbook hours. I know we all love our logged flight time numbers, but I'm pretty sure flight time is trumped by Webster's if it's "all a matter of definition". I didn't log my dictionary use over the years. I never suspected I would be challenged to produce that particular logbook. ;)

Leave it to a pilot to bring up flight time as a qualification in reading/writing English language! :rofl: ;)
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kimberlyanne546 said:
Shoot and I was in one a few weekends ago. Someone told me they were the old doctor killer before the cirrus. That and the yoke is only on one side with a pivot. Strange. Plus he took out my side's rudders too. So I had no controls.
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My advice is to not fly in a plane with the nickname killer. Doctors had nothing to do with them breaking up in flight. About 10 yrs ago I was looking to purchase my first plane. A buddy and my flight instructor were at the local airport for a small airshow and the fbo had a v tail for sale. They kept trying to convince me to buy it. I explained to them I would not only not buy it I would not even take a ride in it. They both laughed. About a month later they both died in that plane. I think they should all have holes drilled in their wings.
 
dennyleeb said:
My advice is to not fly in a plane with the nickname killer. Doctors had nothing to do with them breaking up in flight. About 10 yrs ago I was looking to purchase my first plane. A buddy and my flight instructor were at the local airport for a small airshow and the fbo had a v tail for sale. They kept trying to convince me to buy it. I explained to them I would not only not buy it I would not even take a ride in it. They both laughed. About a month later they both died in that plane. I think they should all have holes drilled in their wings.
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There was an AD which fixed the structural issue. The other issue is that it is a sexy, fast plane so people use it for long IFR missions leading to the accident record. I had an instructor I had flown with die in a C172 when it broke apart in flight. However, I still consider the C172 a great plane.
 
peppy said:
There was an AD which fixed the structural issue. The other issue is that it is a sexy, fast plane so people use it for long IFR missions leading to the accident record. I had an instructor I had flown with die in a C172 when it broke apart in flight. However, I still consider the C172 a great plane.
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To each their own. I will not fly in a plane known as a killer throughout the aviation community....
 
Your wadded-up knickers notwithstanding, the crash problem has very little to do with the type of airplane and very much to do with the type of pilot.

dennyleeb said:
To each their own. I will not fly in a plane known as a killer throughout the aviation community....
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dennyleeb said:
My advice is to not fly in a plane with the nickname killer. Doctors had nothing to do with them breaking up in flight. About 10 yrs ago I was looking to purchase my first plane. A buddy and my flight instructor were at the local airport for a small airshow and the fbo had a v tail for sale. They kept trying to convince me to buy it. I explained to them I would not only not buy it I would not even take a ride in it. They both laughed. About a month later they both died in that plane. I think they should all have holes drilled in their wings.
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If I took your advice (and others) I'm pretty sure none of my flights would have happened. Old planes, experimentals, tail draggers, etc. Though the people I have gotten rides from have thousands more hours than me and all briefed me on their flight planning, thought through each aspect of the flight, and included me in the duties and the learning. I've been very lucky, no crazies so far.
 
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