Blindly Trusting ATC

Cajun_Flyer said:
;)

Honestly, if I was going to fire him for anything, it would be for being a Patriots fan. (...he was also in a sour mood because they lost the night before! lol)
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At least they are winning. I feel like it's the 90's again rooting for the Saints.
 
rolivi said:
I'm wondering what the rest of the story is. Was there weather and they were getting expedited for a void time? How far out did the CFI see the traffic on the ground moving to the line?
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Skies were clear, winds were calm, no incoming weather or adverse conditions in the region. My CFI and I saw the traffic start moving to the line at the same time... we were pretty close, definitely <500 feet. The jet didn't immediately takeoff, either. We were well into the go-around before I saw him start moving down the runway.


Velocity - Good point, but he's been a CFI there for 18 years, so I'm guessing he is pretty clear on the required separation for that airport.
 
ejensen said:
May be awesome but I question giving instruction and missing calls in the pattern.
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Can you clarify?

There were no missed calls. ATC cleared the jet and the jet immediately started moving out. That's how it works at this airport... you don't waste time moving when you get clearance (although, he then just sat on the runway twiddling his thumbs when he should have immediately taken off :nono:). I did not hear the ATC clear the jet. I can't speak for whether my CFI did, but either way he reacted within seconds of when that clearance was given and the jet started moving. He may have been reacting to the ATC clearance while I was reacting to the jet moving, or both. I will ask him, though. I think it's an important thing to address with him and a fair point you brought up.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
Can you clarify?

There were no missed calls. ATC cleared the jet and the jet immediately started moving out. That's how it works at this airport... you don't waste time moving when you get clearance (although, he then just sat on the runway twiddling his thumbs when he should have immediately taken off :nono:). I did not hear the ATC clear the jet. I can't speak for whether my CFI did, but either way he reacted within seconds of when that clearance was given and the jet started moving. He may have been reacting to the ATC clearance while I was reacting to the jet moving, or both. I will ask him, though. I think it's an important thing to address with him and a fair point you brought up.
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Sure, I saw this line in your original post.

"Apparently, as we were coming in to land and my instructor was giving me direction on best practices, they cleared the other plane for takeoff! "
 
ejensen said:
Sure, I saw this line in your original post.

"Apparently, as we were coming in to land and my instructor was giving me direction on best practices, they cleared the other plane for takeoff! "
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Ok. Let me clarify the situation a bit more then. I'm working on my landings with the hope of soloing in the next week. My CFI was correcting me on using power instead of flaps when I was coming in a bit too fast. As I was about to pull up the last notch of flaps, the situation unfolded on the runway. Like I said, I did not hear the call. It's possible my CFI did, but it all happened within seconds and I never asked him.

Like I said, it is a fair point on your end. So I will address it with him. Thanks!
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
Ok. Let me clarify the situation a bit more then. I'm working on my landings with the hope of soloing in the next week. My CFI was correcting me on using power instead of flaps when I was coming in a bit too fast. As I was about to pull up the last notch of flaps, the situation unfolded on the runway. Like I said, I did not hear the call. It's possible my CFI did, but it all happened within seconds and I never asked him.

Like I said, it is a fair point on your end. So I will address it with him. Thanks!
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Great, one can only get so much from a post. Sorry if I came on too strong. Distractions in critical phases can be deadly. Best of luck you sound enthusiastic.
 
This youtube video (mostly audio) reminds me of the situation you describe about lollygagging on a runway:

https://youtu.be/uWg7IpphPc8

ATC is trying to get a plane to depart and they are just sitting on the runway doing checks, making calls, blah blah...is that standard for the airlines?
 
Shame on the jet pilot for not confirming the final approach was clear before pulling onto the runway. The screw-ups here were on the part of multiple people. That said, you have to look out for yourself and not trust anyone else is doing it for you.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
Velocity - Good point, but he's been a CFI there for 18 years, so I'm guessing he is pretty clear on the required separation for that airport.
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It doesn't matter how long someone has been a CFI or a pilot. They can be wrong.
 
Everskyward said:
It doesn't matter how long someone has been a CFI or a pilot. They can be wrong.
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You guys really have your pitchforks out, sharpened and shined for my CFI! :rolleyes:

I'd say it's extremely unlikely that he is wrong about ATC separation rules at the airport he has been teaching at for almost 20 years, but, yes... sure, anyone can be wrong about anything at anytime anywhere and anyhow. That said, it didn't take knowledge on separation rules to be able to visually assess the dangerousness of the situation and assess the fact something wasn't right.
 
ejensen said:
Sorry if I came on too strong.
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No worries. I work in emergency management, so it's nothing I'm not used to. Rolls right off me. Besides, you brought up a valid point, which I can respect.

And, yes, I'm very enthusiastic... aviation has been my passion since I was young and I'm finally in the cockpit having the time of my life. My least favorite words right now, "Let's make a full stop."
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
You guys really have your pitchforks out, sharpened and shined for my CFI! :rolleyes:
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No, it's just that I see many posts about CFIs or pilots having a zillion hours so they must be right about some issue. That is not the case.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
You guys really have your pitchforks out
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Uh oh. She's on to us!!!

:D

Seriously though. What you will find as you become more involved in aviation (or anything really) is that the guy who's been 'around forever' that seems to know it all, turns out to not really know it all. Now, your CFI might be one of those who isn't that way, but most everyone on this board at some point discovers that something their CFI had told them turned out to be incorrect. So, all we are saying is just because he's been around 15,20,30 years, doesn't mean that everything he says is 100% accurate.

He's probably not going to get you killed, but he's not infallible. And I say that as a flight instructor as well. In fact one of the things I tell my students early on is,

"I am not Jesus. What I say is not gospel. If something doesn't sound right or seem right, or you hear differently from somewhere else, call me out on it. We will go over it, look up what we need to, and discuss it until we've both got it right."
 
EdFred said:
What you will find as you become more involved in aviation (or anything really) is that the guy who's been 'around forever' that seems to know it all, turns out to not really know it all.
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Wait a second, are you guys saying that my CFI is human too?!! ;)

Don't worry - I know he's fully capable of mistakes. Anytime he suggests I do something and I see some reason why perhaps I shouldn't, I always tell him so. There have actually been a few times that he has agreed with me. That's one of the many reasons I say he is "awesome." Because I can call him on those things and instead of getting all "but I'm the expert!!", he listens to me and if I'm right, he concedes. It's a respect thing. None of us are perfect, and that's definitely something we have to be more hyper-aware of in GA.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
Wait a second, are you guys saying that my CFI is human too?!! ;)

Don't worry - I know he's fully capable of mistakes. Anytime he suggests I do something and I see some reason why perhaps I shouldn't, I always tell him so. There have actually been a few times that he has agreed with me. That's one of the many reasons I say he is "awesome." Because I can call him on those things and instead of getting all "but I'm the expert!!", he listens to me and if I'm right, he concedes. It's a respect thing. None of us are perfect, and that's definitely something we have to be more hyper-aware of in GA.
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Sounds like a great CFI - almost as good as me! :D
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
No worries. I work in emergency management, so it's nothing I'm not used to. Rolls right off me. Besides, you brought up a valid point, which I can respect.

And, yes, I'm very enthusiastic... aviation has been my passion since I was young and I'm finally in the cockpit having the time of my life. My least favorite words right now, "Let's make a full stop."
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Sounds similar to mine path. I was 42 before time, money, airport all came together. The last 20 have been great.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
I appreciate your advice, but no thank you. I have a fantastic CFI. And he had a right to be ****ed. As did I. Don't know if he was really going to file a complaint or if he was just venting in the plane, but I wouldn't blame him if he did. Also, he definitely made it a teaching lesson. Talked me through the go-around and all the steps involved. It was a great learning experience - both in how to do go-arounds and how never to fully trust ATC.
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Cajun, just anticipate and you'll be fine. Your going to experience this quite often, might as well get used to it now and not get mad.

1. Pilots will be on wrong frequency - use your eyes
2. A LOT of pilots don't clear both runway directions and finals before entering the runway environment
3. Some pilots do intersection departures in ANY direction they see fit with radios off or non-existent
4. Some fields have a "hump" and you may not even be able to see the other departure area, be alert.
5. Animals like to cross the runway at the TDZ during your flare
6. Have your CFI show you a go around after touchdown

I've had at least 5 go arounds this year at my own field and twice pilots flying the downwind opposite direction even though there were 4 of us in the pattern (pattern is north of the runway RP28 and LP10). Welcome to POA, just your participation here will make the PPL oral easier.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
You guys really have your pitchforks out, sharpened and shined for my CFI! :rolleyes:
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Oh yes, this is PoA, swim at your own risk, no lifeguard on duty.

I too had my ex-CFI ridiculed here and even though I tried defending him, I lost. They called him all kinds of names, even though they've never met him or spoke to him. The Internet warriors will always get ya. :)

Enjoy PoA for what it is ... and turn on the "crazies filter" soon. ;)
 
Ok, so I shot my CFI an email asking if he could better explain what happened yesterday. His response:

"They (ATC) told the jet to taxi out and then I told you to start a go around. Interestingly enough, it happened again when I was flying with my next student. They told us to do a 360 on final at 500 feet."

So, it sounds like he was reacting to the ATC call, while I was reacting to the jet moving out in front of us.


Lou - I'm not scared! :)
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
Ok, so I shot my CFI an email asking if he could better explain what happened yesterday. His response:

"They (ATC) told the jet to taxi out and then I told you to start a go around. Interestingly enough, it happened again when I was flying with my next student. They told us to do a 360 on final at 500 feet."

So, it sounds like he was reacting to the ATC call, while I was reacting to the jet moving out in front of us.


Lou - I'm not scared! :)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWqIiCnCA-w&t=25
 
Velocity173 said:
So, talk to management, not the Twr sup and bring up specific gripes that you might have. If they can't explain their actions for these suspected mistakes or they actually admit to a series of mistakes, then I'd take it up with the local FSDO.
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Sounds like there's thin margin for them to NOT get called in to the FSDO:confused: Did I misinterpret?
 
Okay folks. You've seen it here first. I'd say the nuptials are in 15 months....or less.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Sounds like there's thin margin for them to NOT get called in to the FSDO:confused: Did I misinterpret?
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ATC isn't going to get called into the FSDO. It's out of their hands. If the CFI has a legitimate complaint about ATC service and the facility management can't resolve the issue, I'd go to the FSDO. At the very least they can put him in touch with a regional manager. I'd say file an ASRS while he's at it but I doubt ATC would ever hear from it.

The problem in all this is ATC has their own safety net (ATSAP) to protect themselves from punitive action. Record number of Operational Errors being reporting by ATC since they went the ATSAP route.
 
Me thinketh thou dost protesteth much.

Ed- Elementary school boys get bashful and argumentative when the other boys accuse him a liking a girl. Men own it.

Seems to me that she MIGHT like you too. I have a 6th sense about these things. Except I sometimes can't see if she already has a ring on her finger.

We'll let her answer that part.
 
Now that we've totally derailed this thread, I'm gonna let it get back on track and go back to telling people they aren't real IFR pilots unless they had IMC in their training.
 
Norton AFB tower, circa 1973 or so, "41G, immediate left turn out of traffic, there's a 141 behind you, one half mile!"

I was flaring at the time. . .it was a good call though, and a great excuse for a a few moments of real low-level flying. I think he just flat forgot about me, and he was apologetic after. I beleive it may have been a bit less 1/2 mile, too. I guees he had to make a decisive call quickly, and figured I could get out of the way easier than the heavy could initiate a go.

I think, over the years, I've probably committed doubled the ATC errors I've experienced. The rare jerk bothers me oire than an honest error.
 
I've been cleared to land, and did, with traffic at what used to be called "position and hold" (now line up and wait). Does ATC not do that much anymore? I'm an infrequent visitor to places with controllers, I usually just talk to them enroute.
 
jordane93 said:
They are humans too and make mistakes. I've been cleared to land on the wrong runway, given incorrect taxi instructions, cleared for the wrong approach, cleared to the wrong IAF. As pilots, we also need to learn to not blindly listen and make sure the ATC instruction makes sense.
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As a controller and a pilot I can see both sides of the issue. I had to smile as I read the above. Every scenario mentioned has a counter for ATC. For example, I've cleared aircraft to land on one runway and then had to tell them they are lined up to the wrong runway. I gave Air Force One (yeah...that pretty 747) taxi instructions and he taxied to the wrong runway. (nope...didn't correct, just rolled with it)

Pilots have to be cognizant of training in ATC just as controllers need to cognizant of pilots in training.
 
Hank S said:
I've been cleared to land, and did, with traffic at what used to be called "position and hold" (now line up and wait). Does ATC not do that much anymore? ...
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All the time. It's called anticipated separation. :yesnod:
 
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