Black Hole Takeoff

spiderweb

spiderweb

Final Approach
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Ben
Any of you ever done it?

I've done it twice. I was (and am) instrument rated and current. I briefed the approach to myself (was alone both times) as thoroughly as I could, and launched.

First time was off a remote airport in MA. No lights, no city lights, nothing. I knew I would start to see some lights about 90 seconds or so after liftoff. That approach was with a G1000 which was extremely helpful for something like this, but with no SVT.

Second time was from same airport, but now with a G1000 with SVT. That was a piece of cake, and nerves were very low with that backup.

Both approaches were in good VFR weather at night (of course).

Tell me your experiences!
 
What do you mean 'no lights'?

Did the runway have lights? Did the airplane have lights?
 
spiderweb said:
Should have clarified. Runway had no lights, airplane did.
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What's harder, is too takeoff on a well lit runway into desert nothingness. A true black hole. Depart Rwy 27L at Boulder City, NV on a moonless night. Rte 93 is soon under the nose, so no auto headlights to give up a line. You've got some distance to cover, about 2 minutes before you can pick up the city lights through Railroad Pass.
 
Ben

I have departed in a couple of circumstances which I rehard as analogous to that which you describe-

Shortly after first securing my cerrtificate, wifey and I went to a rural airport in Oklahoma for supper (oh, the glamor!). WX was clear, vis was supposed to be ten or better- my butt, it was, it was so hazy I could discern no horizon at all. Should have just trurned around and come home, but it was dinner I promised, and it would be dinner we'd have. Taking off (after dark, because everything took longer than it was supposed to) was a little freaky, but flying at night like that - well, I was really glad my instructor emphasized hood work and not clutching the yoke. I was very glad when we got closer to Dallas and began to have enough lights around to make the horizon more obvious. Scared me a bit.

Worst, though, was departing into a very low ceiling. I was on top in a couple of minutes, but it was... intimidating.
 
I've done it, not my favorite thing to do.

Big bear at 1am, fun... max performance t/o

Take off over ocean out of KCDK.

It's not anything hard to do, you just need to realize you will have NO horizon after t/o.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccLDPn_pNLc

Not me, but all my black hole launches have been similar. This is from a waist cat, which provides more ambient lighting, but a shot from cat 1 or 2 up on the bow is about as black as it gets. Real lonely feeling, sitting on the cat all alone, looking out towards nothing, flicking the external light pinky switch (signal that you are ready to be shot), and then waiting for the cat stroke. The upside is that you can't tell that you are like 60-70' off the water as you clear the deck because it is too dark to see the water normally :)
 
Many times. Another example of how instrument skills may be necessary for VFR flying. You'd better be sharp on your instruments and prepared for the quick and early transition to them at rotation. There are some nasty somatogravitic illusions which can accompany them, too.
 
I have taken-off several times into a pitch black night. At rotation, losing the runway lights, and then instantly going to the gauges was required. At most of the airports here in my home state, a pitch black climb-out is expected at night.

What is not expected is flying into a cloud at 2am on a pitch black night. In level flight, buzzing along at altitude and than have all the ground lights just disappear. You have no idea if you will come out of the cloud or does a change altitude required to get back to VFR.
 
Ron Levy said:
Many times. Another example of how instrument skills may be necessary for VFR flying. You'd better be sharp on your instruments and prepared for the quick and early transition to them at rotation. There are some nasty somatogravitic illusions which can accompany them, too.
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This remind me- if you ever fly into/out of New Orleans Lakefront (KNEW), when departing one of the 36s or arriving to the 18s, even VFR conditions are VERY intimidating over Lake Pontchartrain- hazy, minimal visual references.
 
Strangely enough the only time I had pilots gets disoriented and relinquish the controls was under pitch black conditions. Never had it happen in the clouds. First time was in Afghanistan. If you've been there you know there's no place darker. Anyway the guy was on downwind for the ILS and started complaining of being dizzy. Shortly there after he gave me the controls. Once he took a couple minutes to gather himself he was OK again. Second time was at Hilton Head SC coming of the VOR approach and heading 090 out to sea. The pilot wasn't climbing for the missed. He started a right turn and was decsending at about 500 fpm. Just as I was going to say something he said "f$%k, I'm disoriented, you have the controls!" Both cases were on evals so the debrief didn't go so well.
 
Try turning away from a dimly blue-lit helo deck out over the ocean in heavy overcast. One pilot does the take-off while the other follows on the controls already heads down on instruments. As soon as the cutter is clear control is passed. That is a black hole.
 
I think a VFR black hole landing, when the only thing you can really see is the runway lights, is more deceiving than a takeoff. I've always been taught to go on instruments for the takeoff but that doesn't work so well for the landing.
 
I fly almost exclusively IFR so when I have taken off in the dark over water I was already mentally "tuned up" for instrument reference from the point of rotation so spatial disorientation is not too much of a concern. It's still not a comfortable thing to do so I try not to do it. When I have done it, it's because I'm trying to avoid convective weather at my destination, which here in Texas usually develops in the afternoon. In those situations I am willing to trade the risks associated with a black hole takeoff against the risks of a close encounter with tornado alley convection. My greatest fear is that an animal will appear out of the darkness on the runway during the takeoff roll. Even something small like a raccoon or possum could spell disaster. It's also a good idea to taxi along the entire length of the runway before turning around for the takeoff to make sure there isn't any inanimate debris on the runway that could also ruin your day.
 
Took off to the north from Eastsound, Orcas Island, WA, with T. Wilson, who was at that time the head man at Boeing. Nothing in front of me but dark islands and water. As Ron says, it is an instrument takeoff from the get-go.

Bob Gardner
 
SCCutler said:
This remind me- if you ever fly into/out of New Orleans Lakefront (KNEW), when departing one of the 36s or arriving to the 18s, even VFR conditions are VERY intimidating over Lake Pontchartrain- hazy, minimal visual references.
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I went into KNEW at minimums (18R) and departed at/below approach minimums (36L). The approach was low enough that we used the "have lights in sight" provision to complete the approach. Asked tower for a slight delay on departure as neither we nor the tower could see the traffic that just landed (once I was sure of where he was, I accepted the takeoff clearance). Followed that with an arrival/departure at Brazoria County to minimums.

I concur with your assessment, though, because there is no difference in color between clouds/haze and the water. None. They blend from one to another. It is quite the sight to see the approach lights just appear in the haze.
 
spiderweb said:
Should have clarified. Runway had no lights, airplane did.
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is it legal to land on at night? Mass prob has some law about that- they got laws about everything else - what does the AF/D say about night ops there?
 
Iraq at Balad...one big black hole at night and one brown hole during daylight sandstorms.
 
35 AoA said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccLDPn_pNLc

Not me, but all my black hole launches have been similar. This is from a waist cat, which provides more ambient lighting, but a shot from cat 1 or 2 up on the bow is about as black as it gets. Real lonely feeling, sitting on the cat all alone, looking out towards nothing, flicking the external light pinky switch (signal that you are ready to be shot), and then waiting for the cat stroke. The upside is that you can't tell that you are like 60-70' off the water as you clear the deck because it is too dark to see the water normally :)
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^^^THIS!^^^
 
Thanks for all the responses!

I do think that black hole takeoffs, while challenging, should be safe as long as you commit to them basically as IFR procedures.
 
Many rural airports in MI are like this, including the one I did most of my primary training at. 76G has a 4/22, and departing 22 at night you are pointed straight at Anchor Bay with few if any lights below on upwind until you are near pattern altitude and high enough to see the city lights across the bay. I rented from there for years and am fairly used to that kind of takeoff. Yes you are on the gauges for a while and need to be primed for that. I'm with Mari that the black hole approach is a lot more deceptive since you have to be visual. If literally all I can see is a box of runway lights, I won't land there at night unless there is a VASI.
 
SCCutler said:
This remind me- if you ever fly into/out of New Orleans Lakefront (KNEW), when departing one of the 36s or arriving to the 18s, even VFR conditions are VERY intimidating over Lake Pontchartrain- hazy, minimal visual references.
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I can see how a little less visibility or night could make that approach fun / interesting:

 
spiderweb said:
Yep, and even with that, the landing was flat.
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As are all of mine I film.

Since I stopped filming my landings, they have improved considerably. The best ones are when no one is watching at all.
 
SCCutler said:
As are all of mine I film.

Since I stopped filming my landings, they have improved considerably. The best ones are when no one is watching at all.
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"You should see the one that got away...." :D:D
 
Everskyward said:
I think a VFR black hole landing, when the only thing you can really see is the runway lights, is more deceiving than a takeoff. I've always been taught to go on instruments for the takeoff but that doesn't work so well for the landing.
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I've done that but only at familiar airports. Coming into unfamiliar places at night my personal standards include a VASI or preferably an approach with vertical guidance
 
dell30rb said:
I've done that but only at familiar airports. Coming into unfamiliar places at night my personal standards include a VASI or preferably an approach with vertical guidance
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Item added to my 'list of things to check during planning'.
 
azure said:
Many rural airports in MI are like this, including the one I did most of my primary training at. 76G has a 4/22, and departing 22 at night you are pointed straight at Anchor Bay with few if any lights below on upwind until you are near pattern altitude and high enough to see the city lights across the bay. I rented from there for years and am fairly used to that kind of takeoff. Yes you are on the gauges for a while and need to be primed for that. I'm with Mari that the black hole approach is a lot more deceptive since you have to be visual. If literally all I can see is a box of runway lights, I won't land there at night unless there is a VASI.
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I visited 76g while I was up seeing some family that lives 7 miles from the airport. Sounds like a fun approach.
 
ChrisK said:
I visited 76g while I was up seeing some family that lives 7 miles from the airport. Sounds like a fun approach.
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Just to be clear: I don't consider either direction at 76G to be a black hole approach. It's nowhere near dark enough looking northeast, and coming in on 22 the TDZ is pretty well lit. I still wouldn't land on 4 at night without a PAPI because of the power lines, and because the runway isn't quite long enough for me to comfortably land from 150 AGL over the threshold.

Taking off on 22, that qualifies as a black hole takeoff once you're airborne. But like I said, I don't think black hole takeoffs are that difficult, as long as you stay on the instruments until you can be visual.
 
azure said:
Just to be clear: I don't consider either direction at 76G to be a black hole approach. It's nowhere near dark enough looking northeast, and coming in on 22 the TDZ is pretty well lit. I still wouldn't land on 4 at night without a PAPI because of the power lines, and because the runway isn't quite long enough for me to comfortably land from 150 AGL over the threshold.

Taking off on 22, that qualifies as a black hole takeoff once you're airborne. But like I said, I don't think black hole takeoffs are that difficult, as long as you stay on the instruments until you can be visual.
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Woo. Got it. Thanks.



Sent from my brain using my fingers.
 
SCCutler said:
As are all of mine I film.

Since I stopped filming my landings, they have improved considerably. The best ones are when no one is watching at all.
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Hahah, so true of me, too!
 
I've done a night departure from Kona, HI.....climbing right turn after takeoff takes you immediately out over the ocean. No moon, just pitch black. Did not experience any issues, but it was a little intimidating.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I've done a night departure from Kona, HI.....climbing right turn after takeoff takes you immediately out over the ocean. No moon, just pitch black. Did not experience any issues, but it was a little intimidating.
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I've flown from Kona, but it was daytime. I can envision your takeoff (I am assuming to the South). That's when giant G1000 panels are your friend!
 
First night solo was out of unlit grass strip bordered by corn fields. After liftoff it was pitch black and I got vertigo. Transitioned to gauges until high enough to pick up lights from home city/airport 20 miles away.
 
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