Bittersweet

Richard

Richard

Final Approach
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Ack...city life
I took my wife out for breakfast over the wknd. An oldtimer walks in with his wife to do the same. On his jacket, on his cowboy hat, on his vest, and on his shirt visible after removing his jacket and vest he had the Army Air Cav emblem. His shirt was festooned with no less than 5 Cav emblems. That ol buzzard was all about Air Cav.

Why did that bother me? Like the man who openly wears his PH in public. Like the Pearl Harbor survivor with a PH vanity license plate. Like the man who never misses a chance in conversation to again inform you that he saw combat. Never mind it was only 2 maybe 4 years in a man's life who is now well into his 7th or eighth decade. Sure, it was a defining moment in that man's life...a turning point...a milestone....but surely there must have been something else since then.

But that isn't why it bothered me. I'm damn glad he did what did. And I'm proud of him for the doing. He was tested and he survived. He should be proud of that moment. So what's my problem?

Today it ocurred to me. I purposely passed on the opportunity to do some formation flying today because the lead pilot was going to be one of those men.

Yes, he fought bravely and was highly decorated. Yes, he was on top of his game and, yes, he did lead his squadron on bombing runs. And yes, he probably lived more in those few short years than most will in a lifetime. But that was a long time ago and I cannot again trust such a man to do what is necessary or at the right time. I no longer will give him the chance to prove to me that he doesn't have it anymore.

That man in the coffee shop reminded me of all the others. He was stuck in the past--glorious remembrances to him, deadly to the rest of us.

I could not think of an appropriate title for this. What I put pretty much sums it up for me. God bless these men and women but I cannot afford to be anything less than wary around them.
 
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Richard said:
I took my wife out for breakfast over the wknd. An oldtimer walks in with his wife to do the same. On his jacket, on his cowboy hat, on his vest, and on his shirt visible after removing his jacket and vest he had the Army Air Cav emblem. His shirt was festooned with no less than 5 Cav emblems. That ol buzzard was all about Air Cav.

Why did that bother me? Like the man who openly wears his PH in public. Like the Pearl Harbor survivor with a PH vanity license plate. Like the man who never misses a chance in conversation to again inform you that he saw combat. Never mind it was only 2 maybe 4 years in a man's life who is now well into his 7th or eighth decade. Sure, it was a defining moment in that man's life...a turning point...a milestone....but surely there must have been something else since then.

But that isn't why it bothered me. I'm damn glad he did what did. And I'm proud of him for the doing. He was tested and he survived. He should be proud of that moment. So what's my problem?

Today it ocurred to me. I purposely passed on the opportunity to do some formation flying today because the lead pilot was going to be one of those men.

Yes, he fought bravely and was highly decorated. Yes, he was on top of his game and, yes, he did lead his squadron on bombing runs. And yes, he probably lived more in those few short years than most will in a lifetime. But that was a long time ago and I cannot again trust such a man to do what is necessary or at the right time. I no longer will give him the chance to prove to me that he doesn't have it anymore.

That man in the coffee shop reminded me of all the others. He was stuck in the past--glorious remembrances to him, deadly to the rest of us.

I could not think of an appropriate title for this. What I put pretty much sums it up for me. God bless these men and women but I cannot afford to be anything less than wary around them.
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He's just an old man who needs attention. there are many who have done much more and never got or needed it, that is no worse than any retired person wearing all their union pins.
 
Your statement bothers me a whole lot more than his behavior. I have a 1st Cav (not air Cav, it's Airmobile thank you) and a 7th Cav patch displayed on the rear window of my truck. My motivation for doing so is none of your business. Please stop generalizing...

I'll bet it never even occured to you to say "Welcome home", did it?
 
Richard. That man was proud.
Hes not stuck in the past, but remembering a time when he was great. wish I could go through life being that proud.
 
Last night at our EAA meeting we had a guest speaker who flew bombers in WWII. I would thrilled to fly with him but I would not consider myself qualified for such an honor.

You have obviously never experienced anything which had a profound and/or lasting effect on your life.
 
I really don't see any connection between someone being proud of what they did and their flying skills.
I have many things around my house from when I was in the military, if you were to come to my house will that make you not want to be around me flying?
You deciding not to fly will probably be your loss in the long run, it is very likely you could have learned something.
Being proud enough of something that you did that you are willing to let the world know does not make you "stuck in the past--glorious remembrances "
 
I guess I'm more bothered by reading an obit on someone I knew by name only, and find out only then that they had some exciting and marvelous life experiences that I never talked to them about.
Just last night I found a post on a Navy discussion board by a fellow Hawkeye crew - we flew together off the Nimitz in '79. Was fun to reminisce and trade emails after 25+ years... but I found him because I still have fond memories of that experience and still cruise the web for past and current info.
 
Maybe with the numerous pins and patches he is honoring all of those who can't talk about their days serving our country because those fellow veterans are dead or they just can't talk about their days serving their country.

Never forget that without our military we could be paying homage to a king or queen or our kids could be learning English as a second language or the world could be a radioactive ball floating in space inhabited by cockroaches or we could all be stockpiling duct tape and plastic tarps to protect ourselves from someone that might have been our neighbor.

If someone who served wants to wear a few pins, a hat, some patches or put some stickers on their car, truck, boat, plane, motorhome then they should do it in spades. For me, it would just be another reason to say "Hi", "Good morning" and "How are you"! Don't wait too long to say those things to the WWII vets, they are not going to be here forever and we owe them a lot.

Yes, never forget.

Len
 
Richard said:
I took my wife out for breakfast over the wknd. An oldtimer walks in with his wife to do the same. On his jacket, on his cowboy hat, on his vest, and on his shirt visible after removing his jacket and vest he had the Army Air Cav emblem. His shirt was festooned with no less than 5 Cav emblems. That ol buzzard was all about Air Cav.
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Wow .. I can't believe you have so much contempt for someone who fought for his country. He deserves to be proud of it and to have the respect of the
rest of us. Let him wear anything he wants and flaunt it as much as
he wants. I would have asked him where he served and thanked him.


RT
US Army 69-72
Son of a WWII Army vet
 
I have a friend who spent three tours in Vietnam. I've heard his stories so many times, I can probably tell them better than he can. But I never pass up the chance to hear him tell them again and I would never dream of reminding him he's told me a story before. I love hearing him talk about it and seeing the pride he feels for having served. If he wanted to wear patches and pins and wave flags, I'd help him sew, pin and place every single one.
 
I disagree with your view, and I am entitled to do so. Grow up. It's your mind that formulated that opinion of someone. The old man probably never said one word to you.
 
1) I disagree strongly with Richard's view of such men.
2) Just because I do, I'm not going to insult Richard.

Voice of the Mod
Feel free to disagree with Richard and point out why you do, but lets steer clear of personal remarks like "Grow up" moving foward.

K? Thanks.
 
I cannot help but wonder if you feel the same way about those who wear their Piper or Cessna shirts out and about, or those who wear those their AOPA hats out and about, or middle aged men who sit around wearing college jerseys getting hammered while watching the March madness stuff on tv.

Or if your feelings are strictly limited to vets who proudly show their heritage, their service, and their connection to those they still feel a bond with. If your feelings of wishing they'd just go away, that vets should be willing to be discarded or hide their past like it's something shameful, is limited strictly to those who have served this nation. You say you are grateful for what they did, but you so strongly dislike and distrust them that you will not fly with them.

You are entitled to those feelings. Many of us have done what we had to do to buy you that right. That old man you ridiculed in your post did, and so did the old man you refused to fly with. I suppose it's best we'll never have a chance to fly together. I still wear some of my old t-shirts, and in fact am looking for some new ones to replace them so mine can be retired and stored. I cannot throw them away. They represent, to me, memories of people who paid the ongoing price for our freedoms. Some of whom are no longer here to enjoy them.
 
Well, IMHO vets can wear anything they want. Several years ago, I ran into a bunch of former WWII B-17 crew walking the streets of Philly looking for a place to eat. I was with a friend of mine who is also a pilot. We walked with those guys and asked them tons of questions and thanked them profusely for their service. They were suprised us "young fellas" knew anything about what they did and it made them feel good to be remembered. I think a few were wearing soem jackets with B-17's on them, and that'w how we knew they had a connection to that plane. I was glad they wore what they wore or I would have never met those guys and be able to thank them.

If were weren't in a hurry and on our way out of town we would have bought them lunch.
 
His service may very well have been the highlight of his life and if so, that's the way it is. He could have done worse, as they say. For many, the high point in their lives is only high school -how's that for perspective? Too bad there wasn't more in them either.

Whether or not I fly with someone has not so much to do with their ancient past in other realms, but with my informed perception of their recent currency and skills relative to the demands of the upcoming flight.
 
I don't understand what you are trying to say. I would love for you have the opportunity to restate it in terms that make sense.

Your point about someone dwelling on a period of their life long ago, when no doubt there were many life experiences since, is taken. I disagree, but I see your point at least.

What does that have to do with flying with such a person? Is there a story behind that because your post explains it poorly.

While I have never had the privilege of serving in the armed forces I would imagine for many it was an intensity of experience that stamped itself indelibly on some. In Arizona I saw those guys all the time. I was rather fond of some of them. :)
 
Wow...of all the things to get annoyed with, thats the one you pick?

I'm glad when I see those guys wearing that stuff. It lets me know that someone respectable is around. Someone who I owe a great debt that I can never repay. Most likely a real, live hero.

My grandad wore a maroon and white "Ex-POW" hat a lot in his later years. He had a purple heart license plate. Thats how I'll always remember him. He was a hero if I've ever met one. He spent 3.5yrs as a POW in Japan...went through a hell that you likely can never imagine, and saw thousands of his buddies die for no reason. Those guys did something great...they appreciate a little respect for it, a little recognition, instead of the great ignorance and indifference showed to them by most Americans. They didn't come back and ask for money or fame, they just put their heads down and went back to work. My grandad's hat is now one of my most treasured possesions...money couldn't buy it from me.

If you just need to be annoyed at someone, pick a person who makes a negative contribution to society, instead of these heros. Get annoyed with stupid, ignorant, overpaid, druggy "professional" athletes that strut around everywhere.
 
What's wrong with you people? It couldn't be that maybe you misunderstood me or perhaps I didn't say it very well what I had to say? Nah, couldn't be that. Nonetheless, I didn't see anyone ask, let me see if I have this straight, do I understand you to mean....

Certainly it was not my intention to harm anyone and certainly not do I hold contempt for even one of these veterans. I was merely trying to point out that here's an aviator who insists on formation flying yet does not still posess the skills to do so, even though he has hundreds of hours of formation experience. Yet, twice it took severe maneuvering to avoid a mid air becuase of his actions. I won't do that again. And he still does not see what the problem is, after all, he has all this experience...

My connection to the man in the restaurant was I ended up thinking that perhaps this man too was holding on to something which was more fantasy and less reality. I'm not satisfied with the way I'm explaining myself here--oh well, fire when ready.......

Randy Cunningham took heat for having MIG KLR on his license plate. I know a vet who knows Randy well and has told me many stories. Vets I know look with disdain at others who 'show off' their medals, etc except at certain functions and events. I was thinking along those lines when I spoke of the man in the restaurant. Perhaps, because I haven't served I do not have that right...so call me a puke who stepped out of bounds but do not question my respect and admiration for those who have served.

This is a serious matter which cannot just be swept under the rug and forgotten about. But I will say I hold not the slightest contempt for these vets. I am deeply greived that I offended even one of you. I apologize greatly. I am very sorry.

BTW: yes, I did speak briefly with the man and his wife. It wasn't too long because his son and D-I-L showed up with the grandkids for a family breakfast and I was interfering. I was certain to thank him for his service as I shook his beefy hand.
 
alaskaflyer said:
I don't understand what you are trying to say. I would love for you have the opportunity to restate it in terms that make sense.

Your point about someone dwelling on a period of their life long ago, when no doubt there were many life experiences since, is taken. I disagree, but I see your point at least.

What does that have to do with flying with such a person? Is there a story behind that because your post explains it poorly.

While I have never had the privilege of serving in the armed forces I would imagine for many it was an intensity of experience that stamped itself indelibly on some. In Arizona I saw those guys all the time. I was rather fond of some of them. :)
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I didn't see your response while I pounded out my response. I'll try later, right now I'm too upset to make much sense. I upset a lot of people and I apologize for that. Well, not for upsetting them, more about how I upset them.
 
Richard - you didn't offend me. Confused me a little, maybe, but I was not offended by your post. Thanks for some clarification on it, tho!
 
I think most of us (myself included) misunderstood your original post.
 
Richard said:
What's wrong with you people? It couldn't be that maybe you misunderstood me or perhaps I didn't say it very well what I had to say? Nah, couldn't be that. Nonetheless, I didn't see anyone ask, let me see if I have this straight, do I understand you to mean....
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Well, for one thing...
Certainly it was not my intention to harm anyone and certainly not do I hold contempt for even one of these veterans. I was merely trying to point out that here's an aviator who insists on formation flying yet does not still posess the skills to do so, even though he has hundreds of hours of formation experience. Yet, twice it took severe maneuvering to avoid a mid air becuase of his actions. I won't do that again. And he still does not see what the problem is, after all, he has all this experience...
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NOT ONCE in your original post did you comment on the man's flying skills, Richard.

You talked about the symbols he wore and touted, and his living in the past, but you never ONCE mentioned his flying skills as the reason for not flying with him.

You left the very clear impression to me that your problem with him was his displaying of his connection with the past. So

What's wrong with you people? {snip} or perhaps I didn't say it very well what I had to say? Nah, couldn't be that.
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Yeah, sure could be.
 
Richard said:
What's wrong with you people? It couldn't be that maybe you misunderstood me or perhaps I didn't say it very well what I had to say? Nah, couldn't be that. Nonetheless, I didn't see anyone ask, let me see if I have this straight, do I understand you to mean....

Certainly it was not my intention to harm anyone and certainly not do I hold contempt for even one of these veterans. I was merely trying to point out that here's an aviator who insists on formation flying yet does not still posess the skills to do so, even though he has hundreds of hours of formation experience. Yet, twice it took severe maneuvering to avoid a mid air becuase of his actions. I won't do that again. And he still does not see what the problem is, after all, he has all this experience...

My connection to the man in the restaurant was I ended up thinking that perhaps this man too was holding on to something which was more fantasy and less reality. I'm not satisfied with the way I'm explaining myself here--oh well, fire when ready.......

Randy Cunningham took heat for having MIG KLR on his license plate. I know a vet who knows Randy well and has told me many stories. Vets I know look with disdain at others who 'show off' their medals, etc except at certain functions and events. I was thinking along those lines when I spoke of the man in the restaurant. Perhaps, because I haven't served I do not have that right...so call me a puke who stepped out of bounds but do not question my respect and admiration for those who have served.

This is a serious matter which cannot just be swept under the rug and forgotten about. But I will say I hold not the slightest contempt for these vets. I am deeply greived that I offended even one of you. I apologize greatly. I am very sorry.

BTW: yes, I did speak briefly with the man and his wife. It wasn't too long because his son and D-I-L showed up with the grandkids for a family breakfast and I was interfering. I was certain to thank him for his service as I shook his beefy hand.
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It's certainly alright to use profiling as an initial sizing up of an individual, i.e: if they're young and getting ready to fly you somewhere, you're not going to be worrying about senility or stroke problems but you might consider various other more youthful maladies that could affect piloting performance. Then in both cases, moving on to a final opinion that takes into account all readily available intelligence on the individual.

Whether for your previous formation flyer or a new private pilot or anywhere in between the question will always be, do they have what it takes to fly this flight with you? And if so, will they still have what it takes when the going gets rough?
 
Richard said:
I was merely trying to point out that here's an aviator who insists on formation flying yet does not still posess the skills to do so, even though he has hundreds of hours of formation experience. Yet, twice it took severe maneuvering to avoid a mid air becuase of his actions. I won't do that again. And he still does not see what the problem is, after all, he has all this experience...
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It is understandable that you would not want to fly with that pilot. But why lump all veteran pilots with that one bad example? He refuses to admit that his skills have deterirated. But there are other examples of pilots with different backgrounds and of all ages who also refuse to admit that they have allowed their skills to deteriorate.

A single point does not make a trend. I have been around many WWII pilots who are still far better pilots than I ever will be. I know others who refuse to fly as PIC because they know that they have allowed their skills to deteriorate.

In order to know how much to trust another pilots abilities you need to know a little about that individual. Broad generalizations are almost always wrong.

If this comes across as a flame then I appologize. It is difficult to strongly disagree without sounding harsh.
 
Richard. No worries. Your original post was a little confusing. I didn't understand the correlation between the guy in the restaurant and the veteran pilot. Now that you let us know the veteran pilot has poor formation skills, Its a bit clearer. I still don't understand the correlation, but understand why you wouldn't want to fly formation with him. No reason to be upset.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
His service may very well have been the highlight of his life and if so, that's the way it is. He could have done worse, as they say. For many, the high point in their lives is only high school -how's that for perspective? Too bad there wasn't more in them either.

Whether or not I fly with someone has not so much to do with their ancient past in other realms, but with my informed perception of their recent currency and skills relative to the demands of the upcoming flight.
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You know, it's been almost 10 1/2 years since I got out of the service. Since then, I've become a Christian and been baptized, gotten married, had a son, fulfilled my life long dream of becoming a pilot (a work in progress as I work to add ratings and maybe get paid for it). All highlights of my life, all fantastic events. Still, the 11 years I spent in are, and I suspect will remain, also a highlight of my life. I was only 17 when I went in. Did a lot of stuff, some fun, some not so fun. Made lifelong friends, had a couple killed, went places I never would have any other way. Again, some fun, some not. My life has been far from empty since getting out, and it just keeps getting better. But the odds of me "moving on" or putting my days in the service behind me seem awfully non-existent to me. Nor do I feel the need to do so. I'm proud of my service, and on the whole it was a good 11 years.
 
Richard... I just had a flash of irony... does my avatar cause the same reaction for you? I'm not being sarcastic nor intending to be rude...just curious. Perhaps it was something more than the patches?
 
gkainz said:
Richard... I just had a flash of irony... does my avatar cause the same reaction for you? I'm not being sarcastic nor intending to be rude...just curious. Perhaps it was something more than the patches?
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You inspired me, Greg! How about a C.I.B. avatar?
 
gkainz said:
Nice... I like it! :)
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I've displayed in my pilot's lounge a patch similar to your avitar's in shape but blue and with a dragon sporting electronic beams coming out of its eyes and downward. Bought it at an airshow just because it is cool and I was always curious exactly where it came from and meant?
 

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I'm in shock and almost speechless! Everyone is entitled to their opinion….this is a free country. But some have forgotten why! It is because that man and many more like him fought and died for that freedom and many more of our freedoms. And now it offends you?

Think about that Richard.
 
Richard, sorry that I didn't read the whole thread to get to the point where you made your self clear on what you were saying.

I guess we all (at times) think that we are still young and can still do it all.

I would say many of us have learned something today...wouldn't you agree?

Mark
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
From your second link, yes it is the one on the right, the VAQ 130 patch.
THANKS!
The first link has only boxes with red Xs in the corners for me.
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Cool! Here's a squadron history, if you're interested.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/navy/vaq-130.htm

Now, you want to talk about something scary ... Whale (A-3 Skyhawk) on final approach to the carrier...

see photos here

http://www.viablewebsolutions.com/vq/acgallery.html

http://www.viablewebsolutions.com/vq/a3_america.jpg
http://www.viablewebsolutions.com/vq/a3ent.jpg
http://www.viablewebsolutions.com/vq/a3launch.jpg

for a reference of how big these birds are
 
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gkainz said:
Richard... I just had a flash of irony... does my avatar cause the same reaction for you? I'm not being sarcastic nor intending to be rude...just curious. Perhaps it was something more than the patches?
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I always liked the VQ-2 patch.
 
I've hijacked this thread so badly I feel like I ought to be squawking 7500 about now... sorry...
 
Richard said:
Certainly it was not my intention to harm anyone and certainly not do I hold contempt for even one of these veterans. I was merely trying to point out that here's an aviator who insists on formation flying yet does not still posess the skills to do so, even though he has hundreds of hours of formation experience. Yet, twice it took severe maneuvering to avoid a mid air becuase of his actions. I won't do that again. And he still does not see what the problem is, after all, he has all this experience...
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Let him talk all he wants, but nobody can legally fly formation without a willing wingman. The number one requirement for formation flying is trust. If nobody trusts him enough to fly his wing (or let him fly theirs), this problem is solved.

Randy Cunningham took heat for having MIG KLR on his license plate. I know a vet who knows Randy well and has told me many stories.
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I only met the Duke a couple of times in the club at NKX, and I have all the respect in the world for his flying skills and tactical and training brilliance back in the day, but all his kills and medals are not going to keep him out of jail for the bad decisions he made later in life.
 
RotaryWingBob said:
You inspired me, Greg! How about a C.I.B. avatar?
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Anyone who has earned that badge has my respect. They don't give those out like candy.
 
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