Big XC - Signature at airports?

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Meanee

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Meanee
So, last Saturday I've done my big cross country (XLL - N12 - LDJ - XLL). My CFI told me that a touch and go at each field would be sufficient, and that's what I did. But I do see people here mentioning that someone must sign your logbook at each airport. So, what is the correct procedure? I figured since I am solo, and PIC, I am the person who supposed to log it and since no dual instruction was given, other signatures are not required.

Can anyone chime in on this?
 
I just took a cell phone picture of the terminal or something else that had the airport name.
 
So, as long as my CFI said that touch and go is sufficient, I am all ok, correct? As much as I would love to fly again, that cross country in 152 was fairly tiring, and I hope I don't have to redo it again.
 
I did full stop landings at my xc airports, but i logged it all myself. No other standard of proof.
 
Any requirement of "proof" of landing is from the instructor, not the FAA. When I did my XCs, there was no "proof" required. Some instructors seem to require a picture or signature from someone on the field. Personally, I think that's insulting. All my logs going forward are going to be self-certified and are accepted by the FAA, but you require "proof"? Really?
 
My instructor had it covered...he just told me to put gas in at every stop...that solved quite a few issues...:idea:
 
My big XC was 24 years ago, but I had to get signatures at all the stops, I thought it was a requirement of the FAA, not the CFI. But that was long before camera phones, and as a student I believed everything my old man (22) CFI said.:yikes:
 
Nah, signatures are just a cfi specific thing... No requirement.
 
After giving this a little thought, I can see some value in asking a student for a signature. My first "real" xc as a pp involved a quick jaunt from KISZ to KEYE. That was my first time taxiing to and parking at an FBO other than my home airport.

Asking a student to get a signature could be a good way to get said student to simulate that experience, and introduce a nice breather moment. Take a few minutes outside the aircraft, stretch legs, bio break etc.

I'd like to think those cfi's requesting a signature aren't doing for lack of trust.
 
When I did my training, the way they checked the accuracy was through fuel receipts, the flight plan, and checking the Hobbs hours. I am sure every school and instructor did it different, but that was how it was done when I trained.
 
No official requirement for any signatures, photos, or poof other than your own log entry.

That said, it makes me sad to hear of CFIs only requiring touch and gos... Airmanship includes knowing how to get 'round an airport. And, it's certainly something one's going to do as a full-fledged pilot. When better to learn it than while still under the wing of and able to readily debrief with an instructor?
 
gprellwitz said:
Any requirement of "proof" of landing is from the instructor, not the FAA. When I did my XCs, there was no "proof" required. Some instructors seem to require a picture or signature from someone on the field. Personally, I think that's insulting. All my logs going forward are going to be self-certified and are accepted by the FAA, but you require "proof"? Really?
Click to expand...

I did not have to get signatures, but the flight school at which I did my training required that students top-up fuel each time they landed at a field more than 50NM distant, so they had a back-door means of verification (although the instructor never saw it, and I suppose you could have kept the fuel ticket and eaten the cost...). They no longer have that policy.

Sadly, there has been an apparent problem lately with some of the foreign students (who make up a large proportion of students training down here these days) taking off, just flying around for an appropriate length of time, returning and claiming to have gone to several distant fields for XC credit. Bad deal.
 
JoeSelch said:
No official requirement for any signatures, photos, or poof other than your own log entry.

That said, it makes me sad to hear of CFIs only requiring touch and gos... Airmanship includes knowing how to get 'round an airport. And, it's certainly something one's going to do as a full-fledged pilot. When better to learn it than while still under the wing of and able to readily debrief with an instructor?
Click to expand...

Maybe it's because I am very familiar with all 3 fields visited. My initial training was from LDJ (and with bat**** insane landing fee for an uncontrolled airport, you do not want to stick around there). I know that field pretty well. The XLL is my new "home", this is where I rent my solo aircraft. I've been to N12 2 times before, but the field barely gets any activities, and has only 1 taxiway. I guess this is why my CFI was ok with me doing touch and goes.

It's surprising to hear that some people may actually fly around for a while, land and claim that they flew a cross country. That is simply baffling. If you are going to fly around for 2-3 hours just to run up your Hobbs, why not actually do the cross country? :dunno:
 
Meanee said:
Maybe it's because I am very familiar with all 3 fields visited. My initial training was from LDJ (and with bat**** insane landing fee for an uncontrolled airport, you do not want to stick around there). I know that field pretty well. The XLL is my new "home", this is where I rent my solo aircraft. I've been to N12 2 times before, but the field barely gets any activities, and has only 1 taxiway. I guess this is why my CFI was ok with me doing touch and goes.

It's surprising to hear that some people may actually fly around for a while, land and claim that they flew a cross country. That is simply baffling. If you are going to fly around for 2-3 hours just to run up your Hobbs, why not actually do the cross country? :dunno:
Click to expand...

It also makes me sad that your "big" cross country was to fields that you're "very familiar" with... again, this is an opportunity to stretch your wings as a student pilot (still under an instructor's guidance) - time to step outside the comfort zone.
Not faulting you, it's just something that makes me very grateful for the type of instruction I received - which, I think, (at least) suited me very well... first leg of my long XC was to an airport 170nm away (and with which I was unfamiliar but likely to fly to once I had my cert); next stop was also an airport with which I was unfamiliar and which was a good bit further than 50nm from point of original departure.
 
It never occurred to me that a student would fake their own XC flight but I guess it could happen. :rolleyes: If you did fake it, the only person losing out on it would be yourself.

I always like to stop and have a look around the AD building, make a note of whether or not they have a courtesy car or if the AD building might be a good place to make a pitstop in the future.

I also try not to stop at the same place twice unless they have cheap gas. :) Cuz otherwise it would just be boring. :D
 
My CFI made it pretty clear that the big cross country should be to the fields I know and in a sequence I flew before with him. I tried to see if maybe a reverse route would be a good idea, but he didn't go for it.
 
Man, your CFI sucks! He should let you choose your destination and give guidance based on your decision making. Atleast that's what I'd do. What are you going to do after you get your Private, just know how to fly to the same 3 airports only?

I crossed about 4-5nm worth of open water to get to 4R5 for one of my XC destinations. It was an adventure.
 
I had to cross a body of water as well, on my N12 - LDJ leg. It is also right under NYC's Class B. I did ask him about just letting me loose, and he said that I would have plenty of opportunities once I am licensed.

I still have to do a solo landing in a controlled airport. I already have experience flying into a Class C airport (KABE), but he wants me to do a dual landing there first before he endorses my logbook for landing there.

There's a very nice airport, 20nm from my home airport, with a great restaurant, and he won't even clear me for that. So yea, there's not much freedom with him, and this is why I am eager to be done with my requirements and go for a checkride.

Other than controlled airport landing, I need 1 more hour under the hood. Then few mock checkrides, and I should be ready.
 
Yeah, pass your checkride, get 40+hrs of real XC time, then find a different instructor and do your Instrument Rating. :D
 
Some CFIs are less afraid of God than of what their students might do to their tickets. My first CFI had the same policy -- every solo XC had to be done first as dual over the exact route, no room for error or flexibility. I think he would have gone for reversing the route though, but I never gave him the chance -- I switched schools over a safety/airworthiness issue.

I'm SO glad I did, too. I chose my own stops and routes and my CFI signed me off. All but two stops were at fields I had never been to before. My solo XCs were the most awesome adventure I'd had in many many years and I learned more from them than I could ever have imagined.

And no, I didn't get pictures at every stop. Except for a friend's camera that I borrowed for a trip to TVC, I never even carried a camera. No one signed my logbook either, except for my CFI and me (and then the DPE ;)). Why on earth would anyone fake a XC? :dunno: (Of course, I went inside every FBO and signed the register... that was all part of the experience.)
 
I took this crappy picture on my solo XC. I had planned on exploring the islands before I got there. But once I saw that vast expanse of cold blue water for real, looked down on it, and thought "that water will kill you", I decided not to sightsee, since those outer islands are actually pretty far away and uninhabited.

Madeline+Island.jpg
 
gprellwitz said:
Any requirement of "proof" of landing is from the instructor, not the FAA. When I did my XCs, there was no "proof" required. Some instructors seem to require a picture or signature from someone on the field. Personally, I think that's insulting. All my logs going forward are going to be self-certified and are accepted by the FAA, but you require "proof"? Really?
Click to expand...

Insulting? Not at all. My young instructor (25?) was from an aviation family, as was I. And old school is the way to go. What he was doing for me, by requiring me to get signatures and stamps, was adding to my log book "story". The log book story is a keepsake. No requirements - just a nice souvenir for every flight. And those long solo cross countries were very memorable. Most of the FBO's had stamps. Very cool to look back on. From the first dual hour I was encouraged to make notes in my log book. Now I can turn back the clock 20 years. Very cool.
 
JoeSelch said:
No official requirement for any signatures, photos, or poof other than your own log entry.

That said, it makes me sad to hear of CFIs only requiring touch and gos... Airmanship includes knowing how to get 'round an airport. And, it's certainly something one's going to do as a full-fledged pilot. When better to learn it than while still under the wing of and able to readily debrief with an instructor?
Click to expand...

+1. I am not a big fan of touch-and-goes in this context. When the OP gets his certificate, is he going to use it to actually go places or just to bounce on runways? A student x-c should duplicate real-life travel as closely as possible, which extends to learning how to taxi to parking, how to locate the transient parking area, how to tie down at a strange airport, etc.

Bob Gardner
 
skylanerg said:
Insulting? Not at all. My young instructor (25?) was from an aviation family, as was I. And old school is the way to go. What he was doing for me, by requiring me to get signatures and stamps, was adding to my log book "story". The log book story is a keepsake. No requirements - just a nice souvenir for every flight. And those long solo cross countries were very memorable. Most of the FBO's had stamps. Very cool to look back on. From the first dual hour I was encouraged to make notes in my log book. Now I can turn back the clock 20 years. Very cool.
Click to expand...

That's another way of looking at it that I hadn't considered. I fully agree about making notes about the flight in your logbook. I didn't need to get proof of any sort, but did take the opportunity to meet up with my wife on her solo XC at one stop , fueled, and went out to lunch. I even selected the stop by looking at 100dollarhamburger.com back when it was a useful site.
 
Just get fuel and a receipt at every airport. One of my students didn't get the primer latched and it was only because he filled up at MSN that he had 2.0 remaining in his "fuller" tank on arrival home.

Just get fuel. Just do it.
 
bbchien said:
Just get fuel and a receipt at every airport. One of my students didn't get the primer latched and it was only because he filled up at MSN that he had 2.0 remaining in his "fuller" tank on arrival home.

Just get fuel. Just do it.
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That's a good point. Another is that more instructors need to teach their students how to do self-service fuel. It's not rocket science, but having someone with you who's done it before can take a lot of angst out of it.
 
I never did the self service fuel during my primary training. Looking back I am surprised that I wasn't taught.
 
At one time there was a signature requirement, but it was eliminated years ago.
 
Meanee said:
My CFI made it pretty clear that the big cross country should be to the fields I know and in a sequence I flew before with him. I tried to see if maybe a reverse route would be a good idea, but he didn't go for it.
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Jumpin' Jehosophats! (don't know if I've ever used that expression before) You're learning how to fly the airplane but not learning how to fly! Get your ticket then go out and learn how to fly.

I chose my own solo cross country destinations and none were to airports I'd been to before. In fact, my first solo cross country was to an airport that was 30 miles further south than I'd ever been before (doesn't sound like much now but it did when I was a student pilot working on his first solo XC in a 152!) and on a route that was basically between VORs so it was flown using nothing but pilotage. And neither the plane nor I had a GPS. I was prepared to use the VORs if I got lost but, as it turned out, I planned well enough that I never used my VOR at all on that trip. (And that was only about 5 years ago.)
 
JimNtexas said:
At one time there was a signature requirement, but it was eliminated years ago.
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Do you have any documentation on that? It would have to have been a very long time ago, as I don't remember learning it when I trained for my CFI in 1972 even though it was the accepted norm (but not to my knowledge a regulation) when I did my Student solo XC's in 1969.

That said, I was at that time proud to have something in my log to prove I'd really taken off, flown a plane to somewhere else a ways off, and made it back. I still view my first solo XC more than my first solo as the point at which I really considered myself a pilot.

As for airport choices, it is my preference for the first solo XC to send my trainees somewhere they've been before with me. They're usually nervous enough about this without the additional stress of everything being new. Once they've done that, I'm happy to send them, and encourage them to go, somewhere they've never seen before. Of course, I will make recommendations, and retain veto power over their choice, but that second or subsequent solo XC to a new destination is a big confidence-builder.

As for handheld GPS's, I think that for some, it may be a good idea for the first couple of solo XC's to put them in a sealed package labeled "for emergency use only." Likewise, the nav portion of the screen of a 430 can have a piece of paper be taped over it if there's concern about overreliance on electrons and underreliance on photons.
 
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The C152 that I fly does have a nice GPS (GNS430), and I do enter the destination. However, during the flight, I keep it on some information page that does not help me in any way, such as closest fields. Cannot block the screen out due to the thing controlling radios.

I guess my CFI is overly cautious. I can understand a CFI who is restrictive. After all, if I screw up, I believe FAA would want to talk to him too. I thought about doing a small hop from my training field to a field near my relatives (30nm away), but he wouldn't sign that.

XC that I did took me over 3 VORs (directly), so it was a fun game to play for me, called "Can you spot a VOR station on the ground?" But as for navigating them, I was tuned to the VOR but tried not to use it unless I have to.
 
bobmrg said:
+1. I am not a big fan of touch-and-goes in this context. When the OP gets his certificate, is he going to use it to actually go places or just to bounce on runways? A student x-c should duplicate real-life travel as closely as possible, which extends to learning how to taxi to parking, how to locate the transient parking area, how to tie down at a strange airport, etc.

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

I definitely had some learning experiences with this on some of my student x-c's :)

Its one thing you really have to learn with experience.. every place is different! And why are aviation self-serve fuel pumps usually so complicated and finicky :mad2:
 
Meanee said:
The C152 that I fly does have a nice GPS (GNS430), and I do enter the destination. However, during the flight, I keep it on some information page that does not help me in any way, such as closest fields. Cannot block the screen out due to the thing controlling radios.

I guess my CFI is overly cautious. I can understand a CFI who is restrictive. After all, if I screw up, I believe FAA would want to talk to him too. I thought about doing a small hop from my training field to a field near my relatives (30nm away), but he wouldn't sign that.

XC that I did took me over 3 VORs (directly), so it was a fun game to play for me, called "Can you spot a VOR station on the ground?" But as for navigating them, I was tuned to the VOR but tried not to use it unless I have to.
Click to expand...


A 152 with a 430!!
 
Ron Levy said:
Do you have any documentation on that? It would have to have been a very long time ago, as I don't remember learning it when I trained for my CFI in 1972 even though it was the accepted norm (but not to my knowledge a regulation) when I did my Student solo XC's in 1969.

That said, I was at that time proud to have something in my log to prove I'd really taken off, flown a plane to somewhere else a ways off, and made it back. I still view my first solo XC more than my first solo as the point at which I really considered myself a pilot.
Click to expand...

I got signatures back in the'70s, but I do recall that they were not required.

My first solo wasn't a really big deal to me – At that point I had already made trips to / from Oshkosh and Alaska (with a PP along. duuuuuh.). We would trade off flying / navigating pretty much every leg so that little cross country jaunt up into Michigan's thumb (BAX) was no big deal. It's not like I could have gotten lost with Lake Huron on the right, and Saginaw Bay on the left. If you run out of dry land, you went too far. :rofl:
 
dell30rb said:
And why are aviation self-serve fuel pumps usually so complicated and finicky :mad2:
Click to expand...

More than once I have entered 222222 or something like that for the "N" number. But I now know how to make it work at ONZ at least.

Why do they need to know the stupid N number?
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
...that little cross country jaunt up into Michigan's thumb (BAX) was no big deal. It's not like I could have gotten lost with Lake Huron on the right, and Saginaw Bay on the left. If you run out of dry land, you went too far. :rofl:
Click to expand...
We have much the same here on the Delmarva Peninsula. If you hit water, put your back to it, and you'll be over Route 13 in short order. If there are big towns along the road, you're in Delaware -- turn south to get to Salisbury. If the towns are small, you're in Virginia -- turn north.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
More than once I have entered 222222 or something like that for the "N" number. But I now know how to make it work at ONZ at least.

Why do they need to know the stupid N number?
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So they can find you and warn you if they later discover a problem with their fuel. Seriously -- it's happened. For your own sake, put in the correct N-number at self-serve pumps.
 
Ron Levy said:
So they can find you and warn you if they later discover a problem with their fuel. Seriously -- it's happened. For your own sake, put in the correct N-number at self-serve pumps.
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That's one good reason. Another (though of lesser significance to many) is that when we rent planes wet we're to turn in fuel receipts for reimbursement. They kind of like it to have those receipts indicate that it was our plane that got the fuel!

Of course, if you're trying to game the system, there are ways around that, but by and large I haven't heard of that being a problem.
 
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