Best way to decened and other 182 questions

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chrislyons5

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chrislyons5
Hello, I'm a fairly new Jump pilot in a 182. My first question is, what is the fastest, most efficient way and staying safe, to descend a 182? I have heard mixed reviews about slipping and whether or not it is good for the airplane. It sure feels like I'm pulling a lot of G's when I'm slipping. Secondly, if you have a high performance endorsement, do you still need to get checked out in a 182? Lastly, most recently, during start up I saw smoke coming out from under the ignition. To me, it seemed liked the wiring was heating up and causing the smoke. My mechanic doesn't seem to think its a big deal, however my concern is that the mags will fail causing the engine to quit. My question is, if the wiring from the ignition to the magnetos gets melted, will my engine still run? I would hate for the engine to quit on me with people on board. Thanks for any input.
 
Well, that is what I think when I see smoke in a cockpit...not a big deal.

Run for your life away from that place with that mechanic....literally for your life..
 
Smoke coming from the ignition area is not a big deal to that mechanic, he's sitting on the ground with his feet up and a cup of coffee in his hand, while your a** is in the air.

Slipping is NOT a high G maneuver, maybe it feels that way to you because you're not used to it.

The insurance company will dictate if you need any checkout for any plane.
 
One technique in the bag of tools to descend more quickly which I have seen often forgotten is to 'help' the wings to not generate undesired lift. Put in some bank so your vertical component of lift is reduced. Yes, you will have to watch traffic more closely... and if you overdo it you open yourself up to other problems. It's a large part of emergency descent technique btw.
 
chrislyons5 said:
My question is, if the wiring from the ignition to the magnetos gets melted, will my engine still run?
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First, if you saw smoke, absolutely get it checked out... by someone who takes this seriously! Obviously not the mech you spoke with.

But what wiring between the "ignition" and the mags? Can you be more specific? To make spark, all the mags need is rotation. Yes you also need spark plug wires running from the mag to the spark plug, but that is it! The other wires (P-leads, one per mag) from the mag to the "ignition" switch, although "ignition" in this case is a misnomer. If you somehow destroy the P-leads the engine will run just fine, no fears.

So please if you can, we need more information! -Skip
 
chrislyons5 said:
Hello, I'm a fairly new Jump pilot in a 182. My first question is, what is the fastest, most efficient way and staying safe, to descend a 182? I have heard mixed reviews about slipping and whether or not it is good for the airplane.
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Low-power (enough to stay warm, not idle) steep spiral at the top of the airspeed green arc with 45-55 degrees of bank.

Secondly, if you have a high performance endorsement, do you still need to get checked out in a 182?
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Not as far as the FAA is concerned, but the insurer of the aircraft/operation may have their own requirements above and beyond the FAA's. But even if they don't, it's still a pretty darn good idea to get someone who knows the type well to teach you the things they don't put in the owner's manual.

Lastly, most recently, during start up I saw smoke coming out from under the ignition. To me, it seemed liked the wiring was heating up and causing the smoke. My mechanic doesn't seem to think its a big deal, however my concern is that the mags will fail causing the engine to quit. My question is, if the wiring from the ignition to the magnetos gets melted, will my engine still run? I would hate for the engine to quit on me with people on board. Thanks for any input.
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You need a new mechanic, because this one will get you killed. And don't fly that plane again until the issue is resolved.
 
Keep the power up so you do not shock cool the engine, on descent use steep turns as you descend, best wayn to0 get down quickly watch for traffic, and never ever ever slip a 182 with full flaps unless you want learn a hard lesson

This was my technique towing banners, gliders and hauling skydivers

AND do not fly that airplane of there is smoke cause it will turn into a fire run from that mechanic
 
strangebird said:
...and never ever ever slip a 182 with full flaps unless you want learn a hard lesson...
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There's nothing in writing prohibiting or even advising against this, and I've been slipping 182's with full flaps (even the older ones with 40 degrees of flap extension) for 40 years without a problem, so I'm wondering what "hard lesson" I've missed learning in all that time. That said, I still think that a low-power steep spiral is the best way to get down safely and expeditiously after kicking the jumpers out the door.
 
Ron Levy said:
There's nothing in writing prohibiting or even advising against this, and I've been slipping 182's with full flaps (even the older ones with 40 degrees of flap extension) for 40 years without a problem, so I'm wondering what "hard lesson" I've missed learning in all that time. That said, I still think that a low-power steep spiral is the best way to get down safely and expeditiously after kicking the jumpers out the door.
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Agreed. I've never heard of someone that bent metal from slipping an older Cessna at full flaps, and I've done it plenty of times, nor have I heard of an engine lost to "shock cooling", other than maybe (again I can't cite a ref) for a pressurized turbo twin undergoing a rapid decent at a high altitude at idle.
 
strangebird said:
Keep the power up so you do not shock cool the engine, on descent use steep turns as you descend, best wayn to0 get down quickly watch for traffic, and never ever ever slip a 182 with full flaps unless you want learn a hard lesson
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I slip with flaps on nearly every landing at my airport and have never had a problem. The "slip with flaps" issue is airfram specific and doesn't apply to 182s, thus no placard suggesting one avoid the practice.

The hard lesson you'll learn from using full flaps in a steep spiraling descent is the repair bill for over stressing the flaps and flap track.

strangebird said:
AND do not fly that airplane of there is smoke cause it will turn into a fire run from that mechanic
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Without a doubt.
 
Sounds like elementary questions coming from a C-ASEL certificated pilot. Kinda wonder if you actually hold that level of certificate.
 
Brad Z said:
I slip with flaps on nearly every landing at my airport and have never had a problem. The "slip with flaps" issue is airfram specific and doesn't apply to 182s, thus no placard suggesting one avoid the practice.

The hard lesson you'll learn from using full flaps in a steep spiraling descent is the repair bill for over stressing the flaps and flap track.



Without a doubt.
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What if you did a spiraling descent with full flaps and pitched for the top of the white arc? This is how my CFI taught me to do emergency descents... Admittedly it was a 172N, not a 182 so maybe there's some significant difference in procedure.
 
NJP_MAN said:
Sounds like elementary questions coming from a C-ASEL certificated pilot. Kinda wonder if you actually hold that level of certificate.
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As well as asking what he should do if he saw smokin electrical components. At a measly 120 hours, I sure know how I'd handle it...

I sniff a troll;)
 
fiveoboy01 said:
As well as asking what he should do if he saw smokin electrical components. At a measly 120 hours, I sure know how I'd handle it...

I sniff a troll;)
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Dunno, but yeah. I know how I would handle it as well.
 
Tomorrow I'm going to check out the plane and I will snap a photo of where the smoke is coming from. I've grounded the plane until this is resolved. If it gives you any more clues... the smoke only occurs when cranking the engine. I stop cranking after 3 or 4 seconds, but that is when I notice smoke. Thank you so much for your input, it is greatly appreciated
 
How many inches of manifold pressure should I not go below? I have heard 10, but that seems kind of low. I also use about 2200 RPMs on the decent.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
What if you did a spiraling descent with full flaps and pitched for the top of the white arc? This is how my CFI taught me to do emergency descents... Admittedly it was a 172N, not a 182 so maybe there's some significant difference in procedure.
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Might be legal, but pushing that limit tends to crack flap skins, which cost more than enough to replace. Look at the bottom flap skins at the trailing edge rivets; bet you'll see cracks there. Max number of cracks permitted is six per flap. And take a look at the flap cove skins (in the wing above the flap bay); the little brackets that brace that skin to the flap tracks will crack, too, from a lot of flaps-down flying.

Dan
 
fiveoboy01 said:
What if you did a spiraling descent with full flaps and pitched for the top of the white arc? This is how my CFI taught me to do emergency descents... Admittedly it was a 172N, not a 182 so maybe there's some significant difference in procedure.
Click to expand...

The only difference is to pull the cowl flaps closed.

Some will argue to pull off power only at 2 inches each minute, but that seems to be based on lore. If you're descending from 12,000, the MP is already pretty low, well within the green arc, even at full throttle.
 
chrislyons5 said:
How many inches of manifold pressure should I not go below? I have heard 10, but that seems kind of low. I also use about 2200 RPMs on the decent.
Click to expand...

I can't get manifold pressure below 14 even at idle on short final at 65. That is, unless the airplane is on the ground and stopped. I suppose it might get that low on a power-off stall, but frankly, I'm not looking at the MP gauge when I do that.
 
Only "odd" thing I've noticed with our 182 is if I slip with 40 degrees of flaps at 70 kts, I often get some light pitch oscillations that are slightly uncomfortable.

.....

Let's see, smoke from the ignition switch, right next to the primer line.
What could possibly go wrong?
:rolleyes2:
 
I was once bleeding from my coratid artery, my doctor didn't think it was any big deal.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
Only "odd" thing I've noticed with our 182 is if I slip with 40 degrees of flaps at 70 kts, I often get some light pitch oscillations that are slightly uncomfortable.
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I suspect there's something wrong with your 182 if it's getting the same pitch oscillations which resulted in the advisory on 172's, because I've never seen anything anywhere to suggest it's a problem in 182's before this.
 
Ron Levy said:
I suspect there's something wrong with your 182
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There is nothing wrong with the plane; the airframe is entirely stock and it is correctly rigged. The oscillation is not hazardous in the slightest, and only occurs under a very specific set of circumstances (i.e. dropping flaps to 40 while still at 70 KIAS). At the point you are at flaps 40 in our plane, you should really be closer to 63-65 KIAS for landing.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
There is nothing wrong with the plane; the airframe is entirely stock and it is correctly rigged. The oscillation is not hazardous in the slightest, and only occurs under a very specific set of circumstances (i.e. dropping flaps to 40 while still at 70 KIAS). At the point you are at flaps 40 in our plane, you should really be closer to 63-65 KIAS for landing.
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If there was nothing wrong with the plane, it wouldn't be happening. If you don't believe me, call Cessna's Tech Support and ask them.
 
Ron Levy said:
If there was nothing wrong with the plane, it wouldn't be happening. If you don't believe me, call Cessna's Tech Support and ask them.
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Sure, Ron, whatever you say.

I know of other 182s that do the same thing, it isn't unique by any stretch. This just isn't a configuration/speed often flown for any sustained time, so you may well never have encountered it in all of your years of flying

And, again it isn't a *problem*, it is just a very mild flight characteristic.
 
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chrislyons5 said:
How many inches of manifold pressure should I not go below? I have heard 10, but that seems kind of low. I also use about 2200 RPMs on the decent.
Click to expand...

Good lord, you need to learn a lot more before you start getting paid to fly. Are there no other jump pilots at that DZ? The 182 is widely used for smaller jump loads and there has got to be an enormous amount of information available online. Utilize it.
 
chrislyons5 said:
Hello, I'm a fairly new Jump pilot in a 182. My first question is, what is the fastest, most efficient way and staying safe, to descend a 182? I have heard mixed reviews about slipping and whether or not it is good for the airplane. It sure feels like I'm pulling a lot of G's when I'm slipping. Secondly, if you have a high performance endorsement, do you still need to get checked out in a 182? Lastly, most recently, during start up I saw smoke coming out from under the ignition. To me, it seemed liked the wiring was heating up and causing the smoke. My mechanic doesn't seem to think its a big deal, however my concern is that the mags will fail causing the engine to quit. My question is, if the wiring from the ignition to the magnetos gets melted, will my engine still run? I would hate for the engine to quit on me with people on board. Thanks for any input.
Click to expand...

Ok

First off welcome to DZ flying, I flew full time at a busy turbine and piston DZ for 2 years, ended up with my USPA license and another semi expensive hobby, some of the best flying I've done was at the DZ, and the people are great, as is the sport.

Now you need to get on these sites and read up and ask questions.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/diverdriver/


http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi

And

http://skydiverdriver.blogspot.com


If you have a HP endorsement there is no checkout needed for the 182, don't pay any training bonds or any other BS, you should also be riding with a experienced jump pilot for minimum a few weeks to learn the trade, how to spot (GPS with a OBS line or just visual) emergency ops, what to let the jumpers do and what not to, etc.

If you're getting charged for "training" or not being heavily trained, find a new DZ.

FYI bottom of the barrel jump pilot pay is $15 a load.

As for the descent question,

First off you didn't mention what engine the 182 has, and what mods were done.

For a U206 with a IO550, you're cowl flaps closed, wing flaps 0, bottom of the green on the MP and RPM, pitch 15-20kts shy of VNE, use your mixture to maintain target EGTs/CHTs, lower MP as you decend to stay bottom of the green.

Don't slip, spiral or any of that crap, just straight lines and gentle turns.

You should have a nice engine analyzer, if not keep the CHTs in the green, no more than cooling a degree every 2 seconds.


As for the wires, F' that, guessing DZO isn't a pilot and is probably running a chit show, tell the DZO what happened and if he doesn't get on it, go to that last site I posted and look for a new job, also get on the facebook group and seek guidance on there.

Next, ALWAYS carry a big hook knife up front with you.
carbonJackhook.jpg


NJP_MAN said:
Sounds like elementary questions coming from a C-ASEL certificated pilot. Kinda wonder if you actually hold that level of certificate.
Click to expand...

Yeah, not really bud, some of it is elementary, but proper DZ engine management isn't much like anything most non DZ pilots experience.





To the OP, you're really better off asking your questions on one of the sites I posted vs asking a bunch of weekend Bo and Cirrus drivers how to be a new jump pilot.
 
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MAKG1 said:
I can't get manifold pressure below 14 even at idle on short final at 65. That is, unless the airplane is on the ground and stopped. I suppose it might get that low on a power-off stall, but frankly, I'm not looking at the MP gauge when I do that.
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Huh. My gear running horn doesn't come on until I hit 12" with gear still up. I'll have to pay attention to what it shows taxiing at 1000 RPM. But maybe yours has something significantly different, besides two more cylinders and 55 more hp.

When I shut down, MP is ~28".
 
fiveoboy01 said:
What if you did a spiraling descent with full flaps and pitched for the top of the white arc? This is how my CFI taught me to do emergency descents... Admittedly it was a 172N, not a 182 so maybe there's some significant difference in procedure.
Click to expand...

Why would you use flaps? Yes , they increase drag, but they also increase lift. When you're descending you want less lift. The reason you're doing a steep back is to trade vertical lift for horizontal lift. Keep the flaps up and you won't damage them by overspending them.

BTW, this is not a slam on you, but "This is how my CFI taught me" should not be words muttered by a professional pilot. As a pro, you should be researching the proper way to fly the aircraft. You should know the operating handbook inside and out, and reading out to other jump pilots to pick their brains. You should develop procedures in conjunction with your employer and mechanic that maximizes safety, efficiency, and minimzes wear and maintenance expenses. Flying jumpers is not something you should be guessing about.

Good luck.
 
When towing gliders in the 182 I usually use middle of the green arcs for mp and rpm (maybe 19" and 2200 rpm) and 130-140 mph with a spiral. But I only need to lose 1000 ft usually to get to pattern alt.
 
Brad Z said:
Why would you use flaps? Yes , they increase drag, but they also increase lift. When you're descending you want less lift. The reason you're doing a steep back is to trade vertical lift for horizontal lift. Keep the flaps up and you won't damage them by overspending them.

BTW, this is not a slam on you, but "This is how my CFI taught me" should not be words muttered by a professional pilot. As a pro, you should be researching the proper way to fly the aircraft. You should know the operating handbook inside and out, and reading out to other jump pilots to pick their brains. You should develop procedures in conjunction with your employer and mechanic that maximizes safety, efficiency, and minimzes wear and maintenance expenses. Flying jumpers is not something you should be guessing about.

Good luck.
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I'm not a professional pilot, not sure where you got that from.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
I'm not a professional pilot, not sure where you got that from.
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Sorry, I confused you with the OP. My apologies.

[rant]Nevertheless, I'd be ok with all pilots--commercial, private, ATP, sport, whatever, dropped "this is how my CFI taught me" from their vocabulary.

Why?

Because CFIs are not omnipotent beings of all things aviation. They're frequently incorrect, and often pass their misunderstanding on to their students. Often the best teacher is experience, and many CFIs don't stick around to teaching long enough to gain much experience before they move on with their aviation career. This is particularly true when it comes to mechanical operating methods such as engine management, as CFIs aren't mechanics and don't see the long term repercussions of mishandling aircraft.

I'm not saying to ignore your instructor, but that it's OK to question things. There are tons of threads that start with "my CFI taught me" that turn out to be real eye openers for the originating poster. Sometimes the best thing a CFI can teach a student is where to find they answers they seek. Having the right resource (type clubs, ACs, FAA orders, etc.) can make all the difference.[/rant]
 
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