Best mid-range two-seater under $25 K

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TexasAdam

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TexasAdam
I know it's hard to be picky at that price point but I'm going to be anyway. From what I've seen there are basically three options: 1) Cessna 150; 2) Piper Tomahawk; 3) Grumman AA-1. There are also an assortment of taildraggers out there but I'm not very taken with them (although if there are some that fit the mission perfectly please do say so). I'm partial to the Grumman because it looks way-cool but I feel like there are better decision points out there.

The mission is as follows:
1 - Weekend trips of no more than 500nm (average would probably be about 350nm or less) every 4-6 weeks
2 - Occasional business trip of ~200 nm
3 - Maximum annual use of around 100-125 hours
4 - Maximum load (pax + baggage) of 450, usually closer to 400 or less; Room for two bicycles is a big plus
5 - Low fuel-burn (5 gph if possible, even better if there's an auto-gas STC out there)
6 - Don't particularly care about puttering along at 100-110 mph nor do we mind stopping on the way (so luxurious surroundings/quiet engine isn't a major factor)
7 - Resale value is somewhat important although I can see us holding on to this one for a while.
8 - Get my IFR ticket (maybe)

ANNNNNND GO!

EDIT: Tony's right. Still on my first cup of coffee....
 
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i think you mean piper tomahawk. from those three i would be tempted to go with the 150 just from a standpoint of maintenance support and parts availability.
 
Mazda Miata with a bike rack.
 
Your mission does not fit your airplane budget at all. Kick it up another $5K and you might find a Cherokee that fits the bill though. Still a bit slow for those trips.
 
Maybe Joe Selch will chime in with info on the Sooooooooper Yankee.

That said, I would evaluate your price point carefully. Wayne is correct given your price range. None of those 2-seaters make particularly good trip machines, and if you're looking at ~350 nm trips every month or two... that's going to get very old in a plane that'll do 100 kts without headwinds... while pushing it.

I used to fly a Mooney M20F. The engine was at TBO, but it was running well. The plane was otherwise a sound IFR platform and sold for $25k. You could likely find a C model or similar, which would end up getting similar miles per gallon to the planes you listed with a much nicer speed.

Yes, hourly MX will be a bit higher. But when you look at the $/mile (which it sounds like matters to you if you're doing trips), it won't be as much different as you think.
 
In todays market I think 25K will get you a whole lot more than you think it will. You should be able to get a 40-50 K airplane for around your budget.

There are a lot of airplanes where the seller might be asking the market value, while in reality, will take considerably less. You should be able to put yourself into a Warrior or a C-172 for around that figure. Heck, a few months ago if someone had offered me that for my plane, they probably would have had a very nice Warrior.

Find the airplane you want. Ignore the asking price, and make your offer. You will probably be told to shove it up your...... Anyway, make sure the seller has your name and phone number, then wait.

What I'm telling you is get as many CS offers out there as you can, don't be in a hurry, don't start drooling over the sellers airplane.

Do not act like a big shot businessman, a shrewd operator. Be nice, tell the truth, tell them all you can possibly come up with is 25K. Never insult the airplane in an attempt to achieve a lower price. Remember, most of these sellers have a lot of history with their birds and probably somewhat of a love affair going with them.

Knowing their plane will go to someone who will fly it and love it like they did, can go a long way toward a lower price, or help in getting you behind the stick.

Today, twenty five thousand dollars is a lot of money, someone out there is going to get it away from you, that is a fact. You can afford to be picky. You are going to have to take somewhat of a gamble though, unless your an A&E. It is easy to spend five or so thousand on pre-buy inspections before you find the right plane.

Good luck in your quest.

John
 
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John Baker said:
You are going to have to take somewhat of a gamble though, unless your an A&E. It is easy to spend five or so thousand on pre-buy inspections before you find the right plane.

Good luck in your quest.

John
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Only if you are totally clueless about buying an airplane. Prebuy costs should be minimal if the purchase is properly structured.
 
A cherokee 140 would probably meet your stated requirements, especially if you don't get one upgraded to 160hp. However, it won't quite get only 5gph unless you slooow it down even more than it is slow.

I did my primary training in a 172 (well, most of it). But I switched to the cherokee for my instrument training. And later bought a cheroke 140 in '94.

And it is likely that $25,000 is more than enough to buy just about any 140 out there.
 
Bob Noel said:
A cherokee 140 would probably meet your stated requirements, especially if you don't get one upgraded to 160hp. However, it won't quite get only 5gph unless you slooow it down even more than it is slow.

I did my primary training in a 172 (well, most of it). But I switched to the cherokee for my instrument training. And later bought a cheroke 140 in '94.

And it is likely that $25,000 is more than enough to buy just about any 140 out there.
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I owned a Cherokee 140 before I bought the Tiger. Good plane, but it was a dog, especially in climb, with the 150 HP. If you can swing the 160 HP get it.

It certainly would be better than a C-152, Tomahawk, or AA-1x for load carrying and comfort. The AA-1x will be the most fun by far though.
 
wabower said:
Only if you are totally clueless about buying an airplane. Prebuy costs should be minimal if the purchase is properly structured.
Click to expand...

When I purchased my first plane, I was indeed clueless about what I was doing. My mechanic at that time was the guy who administered the A&E tests in San Diego, he did know what he was doing.

I spent money pr-buying two Warriors, an Archer, and a Dakota, none of them passed Ted's inspections as the plane for me.

I finally bought my Warrior from a guy in east Texas based only on what was on the Controller web page and what he told me, and how he sounded on the phone. I had a good gut feeling I had found my plane. I paid him to ferry it out here to San Diego, I was still a student at the time. The plane looked brand new, it was beautiful. Even my picky mechanic gave it a thumbs up.

I probably spent more than I should have on the plane, 47K but in those days, times were good, everyone had money, it would never end.

John
 
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TexasAdam said:
I know it's hard to be picky at that price point but I'm going to be anyway. From what I've seen there are basically three options: 1) Cessna 150; 2) Piper Tomahawk; 3) Grumman AA-1. There are also an assortment of taildraggers out there but I'm not very taken with them (although if there are some that fit the mission perfectly please do say so). I'm partial to the Grumman because it looks way-cool but I feel like there are better decision points out there.

The mission is as follows:
1 - Weekend trips of no more than 500nm (average would probably be about 350nm or less) every 4-6 weeks
2 - Occasional business trip of ~200 nm
3 - Maximum annual use of around 100-125 hours
4 - Maximum load (pax + baggage) of 450, usually closer to 400 or less; Room for two bicycles is a big plus
5 - Low fuel-burn (5 gph if possible, even better if there's an auto-gas STC out there)
6 - Don't particularly care about puttering along at 100-110 mph nor do we mind stopping on the way (so luxurious surroundings/quiet engine isn't a major factor)
7 - Resale value is somewhat important although I can see us holding on to this one for a while.
8 - Get my IFR ticket (maybe)

ANNNNNND GO!

EDIT: Tony's right. Still on my first cup of coffee....
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300-500 miles in a C150 is quite the trip.

You've got 26 gallons of fuel. 95 knots cruise at best but in the real world with winds you'll get slowed quite often. Imagine a 30 knot headwind cutting you down to 65 knots groundspeed. Those kinds of winds happen quite often.

It's going to take 5 hours to fly 300 miles with a 30 knot headwind. You don't have the fuel for that - so you'd end up stopping at least once.

500 miles is going to involve at least one stop without winds and several with winds.

Based on the description of your mission - I'd have a hard time recommending any airplane that can't true at least 115 knots. PA28, C172, C182, Mooney, etc would all work quite well.
 
Anthony said:
I owned a Cherokee 140 before I bought the Tiger. Good plane, but it was a dog, especially in climb, with the 150 HP. If you can swing the 160 HP get it.

It certainly would be better than a C-152, Tomahawk, or AA-1x for load carrying and comfort. The AA-1x will be the most fun by far though.
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I did upgrade my 140 to 160hp so that the plane now has the warrior engine/prop combo, but that eliminated the autogas STC (which I wasn't using anyway). The OP wanted the auto-gas STC.

Btw, I did some crude time-to-climb tests as part of considering whether or not to add speed mods to the 140. The most effective way to add 100+fpm to the climb rate was for me to lose 10 to 20 lbs. Harder to accomplish but cheaper with a positive impact on the useful load.
 
jesse said:
You really want something in the 120 knot + range based on what you've described as your mission.
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At least. You're going to need........ More Money.

Sounds like a Cheetah would be perfect, or maybe even a 75 Traveller.
 
wabower said:
Only if you are totally clueless about buying an airplane. Prebuy costs should be minimal if the purchase is properly structured.
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Last one I did was $160...

But we found MAJOR problems that fast.

Look at it this way, the labor of an annual can be done for ~$1000 (and probably less) on any of the planes listed so big bucks shouldn't have to be spent. Just spend the money, that $160 I charged that fellow saved him tens of thousands!
 
I've never seen an auto gas pump at an airport, at least not that I have noticed. Do they even have them, or do you have to schlep it in Jerry cans to your plane?

John
 
John Baker said:
I've never seen an auto gas pump at an airport, at least not that I have noticed. Do they even have them, or do you have to schlep it in Jerry cans to your plane?

John
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Yes on both counts, they do exist but most folks haul it in. Problem is it's VERY hard to find ethenol free auto gas and ethenol will eatup the fuel system if you put it in.
 
Skylane81E said:
Yes on both counts, they do exist but most folks haul it in. Problem is it's VERY hard to find ethenol free auto gas and ethenol will eatup the fuel system if you put it in.
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Sounds like a major pain. I think I'd rather pay the extra for 100LL.

John
 
Skylane81E said:
and ethenol will eatup the fuel system if you put it in.
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Not true, It is not the alcohol in the fuel that attacks the rubber in the fuel system.. It is the benzene and toluene the alcohol only lowers the BTU count per gallon.
 
John Baker said:
Sounds like a major pain. I think I'd rather pay the extra for 100LL.

John
Click to expand...

Auto fuel is not a cure all for the lead problems our engines have, auto fuel is just different set of problems.
 
Tom-D said:
Not true, It is not the alcohol in the fuel that attacks the rubber in the fuel system.. It is the benzene and toluene the alcohol only lowers the BTU count per gallon.
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Either way the STC specs ethenol free gas only, and no mater what eats teh rubber, it makes a mess ($$$)
 
Good luck TexasAdam. As most have said, it will be hard to accomplish what you want to do with a C-150 (I have one). But, one of the most important mission objectives in my mind with regard to airplane ownership is having something you can afford to buy, fly and maintain. To do the trips you want to do, you really need more airplane than a C-150. Try to go with at least a Cherokee 140 or C-172 -- you will be much happier. Still, for me, a C-150 is usually around 1/2 to 2/3 of the time required to drive depending on the length of the trip, but you have to factor in the time on each end to get the airport and to where you are actually going (unless you are going to an airport). Enjoy the search.
 
Maint is an important factor, however it should be noted that a 150, PA28 and to a large extent a 172 will all have very similar maint costs. The only reason a 172 might be more is if you end up with an O300 bird with two extra jugs and that's fairly minor. All have dirt simple aluminum airframes, fixed gear, fixed pitch prop and low power engines. The Cessnas have steering bungies to fail but a PA28 has two extra oleo struts to leak, so take your pick.
 
Anthony said:
At least. You're going to need........ More Money.

Sounds like a Cheetah would be perfect, or maybe even a 75 Traveller.
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Agreed. Fold down the back seat and there's plenty of room for the bikes. In any event, none of the originally listed planes have the payload and cabin volume. And even with the big engine STC, the AA-1-series doesn't have the payload.
 
Skylane81E said:
Either way the STC specs ethenol free gas only, and no mater what eats teh rubber, it makes a mess ($$$)
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Depends on the airplane / engine.

I'm good with E-10.

On the other hand, lead is a problem for my gear reduction and engine life, so I avoid 100LL whenever possible.

I schlep it in a 5 gallon can at home - no big deal. Some airports sell MOGAS which makes them good places to stop. And I buy the leaded crap when I have to.
 
Skylane81E said:
Rotax?
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Yup.

Jabaru is good with E-10 as well.

One also has to have the SAE spec fuel lines and not the aircraft grade fuel lines to avoid problems in addition to the engine choice.

Airports with auto fuel - paste this into google:

mogas site:airnav.com Michigan

with the state of your choice.
 
Cool, but not a fair comparison to what the OP wanted. The STCs that I've read all were limited to ethenol free fuels.
 
Skylane81E said:
Cool, but not a fair comparison to what the OP wanted. The STCs that I've read all were limited to ethenol free fuels.
Click to expand...

Since when do we care what the OP wanted in a thread? :wink2:

My ride was under $25K, but is not quite as fast as what the OP was suggesting.
 
Skylane81E said:
Maint is an important factor, however it should be noted that a 150, PA28 and to a large extent a 172 will all have very similar maint costs. The only reason a 172 might be more is if you end up with an O300 bird with two extra jugs and that's fairly minor. All have dirt simple aluminum airframes, fixed gear, fixed pitch prop and low power engines. The Cessnas have steering bungies to fail but a PA28 has two extra oleo struts to leak, so take your pick.
Click to expand...

I flew an 0-300 172 the other night. I was really surprised and enjoyed how smooth that 6 cyl engine ran.

I think full fuel load on it was about 600 lbs. I'm not sure how you will get a full size bike in any of these choices.
 
A growing network of airports offers corn-free mogas. The airports that offer the fuel usually have a list of other suppliers in their region.

Skylane81E said:
Yes on both counts, they do exist but most folks haul it in. Problem is it's VERY hard to find ethenol free auto gas and ethenol will eatup the fuel system if you put it in.
Click to expand...
 
BTW, what I haven't seen from the OP is a procurement budget. That would help. Also, I don't think he said anything about instrument flying, but trips like that pretty much beg for an IR unless you have lots of time to sit and wait for weather. Proper IFR equipment to either obtain or use an IR seems to me pretty important for an airplane for this mission.
 
I paid $19K for my beautiful VariEze. The other weekend I made a 500 mile trip, WVI-EUG, with a friend in 3 hours. We used about 14 gallons each way.

It is comfortable but not roomy, so you have to pack light. I fly "mild IFR" with it - i.e. departures and approaches, but not a long slog through the clouds. I don't think it would be a good aircraft to get an instrument rating in, because the instructor would have to be in the back and couldn't see the instruments well.
 
Moderately off subject, but is there a reliable source of information regarding the actual price paid for used planes, similar to "blue book" for autos? One poster mentioned that planes are often listed for a price that they will not bring on the market, so knowing the real present market value would help immensely.
 
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