Before I Borrow a Plane

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bigblockz8

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Nov 8, 2011
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Display name:
Gore
A friend-of-a-friend-of-a-friend has a C172 at College Park Airport, KCGS. I am dirt poor and spending my $ on training. If you have read my previous posts you'd know that I have gone through a lot of CFI's and I am stuck with training right now. I have someone with a plane and they're willing to let me use it under these conditions:


  1. I have renter's/borrower's insurance (I'd do that anyway)
  2. I pay for gas and oil (No prob and expected)
  3. I pay for a tie down at W00 and 1/4 of the KCGS rent (Not too bad)
  4. I fly at least five hours a month (NOT A PROBLEM AT ALL!:D)
  5. I return the airplane to KCGS if I don't plan on using it for more than two weeks (Bit of an issue but do-able)
I have no problems with the terms. The issue that I have is with the plane's maintenance. It had it's annual in December. It was overhauled 73 hours/9 months ago. This is what bothers me:


  • I've ridden in it before...before we got in the air, while taxiing I had pulled the throttle to idle, it went to full power! I assumed it was a throttle cable issue (if memory serves correctly if they snap the carb opens all the way up?) and I pulled the mixture. My friend who was actually the PIC was in shock for a good while, as was I.
  • The airplane shimmies at 65kts, shimmy damper was OK'd
  • There is a dent in the left wing from a bird strike, deemed "OK" even though the stall horn area is affected.
  • Controls feel weird and the AP is non functional (I mention the AP because the controls move in increments).
  • Carb heat has a 400rpm drop! In the FBO's C172's I see 50-100 max.
  • One gear leg is a bit rusty
  • Cowling frequently comes loose in flight even with the screws tightened, its even on the guy's preflight list.
  • The owner flies it about 2-5 hours a month. Logs before that show an entire year with only one hour!
I'm not that picky of a person. When I started flying I was in a 2009 C172 G1000 and then ended up in a 172P with duct tape holding 3 mismatched seats together. One vinyl (blue), two fabric (red and orange).

I only ask because I don't want to fly an un-airworthy aircraft. The lives of myself, my CFI, and those on the ground depend on it. It may have all the required docs but after the inspection it still looses cowling screws, 1qt of oil every 2hrs, and the controls act up. I am a bit apprehensive of such a poorly maintained airplane. Too many issues, I see a chain. Mechanical malfunction is rarely an accident cause but it may be in this case.

This guy doesn't fly it. He leaves the flaps down all the time. He also deflates the nosewheel (anti-theft :lol:) and he has had the same fuel in the tanks for months...not full either. Not how I'd pickle a plane. No sun sheilds or anything for his avionics/interior. Just duct tape over door levers and a hell of a time trying to start the engine!
 
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denverpilot said:
Not only no, but hell no.
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oh-hell-no-thumb.jpg


Seriously, if it's half as bad as you're describing it, I'm not even sure why you're considering it.
 
Think how this history would read in the accident report, then make the decision which ensures your name won't be in the report.
 
I wouldn't fly it if it were free. In fact, I wouldn't want to be around when someone else flies it. That sounds like a "project" airplane. If it's burning a quart every 2 hours that soon after a major overhaul, I wouldn't trust that engine any further than I could throw it.
 
Greg, just wait till you can find something safe. In the meantime save your money fornwhen you do find somethin decent.
Really, that plane is not safe.
 
bigblockz8 said:
A friend-of-a-friend-of-a-friend has a C172 at College Park Airport, KCGS.


I had pulled the throttle to idle, it went to full power! I assumed it was a throttle cable issue (if memory serves correctly if they snap the carb opens all the way up?) and I pulled the mixture. My friend who was actually the PIC was in shock for a good while, as was I.
[*]The airplane shimmies at 65kts, shimmy damper was OK'd
[*]There is a dent in the left wing from a bird strike, deemed "OK" even though the stall horn area is affected.
[*]Controls feel weird and the AP is non functional (I mention the AP because the controls move in increments).
[*]Carb heat has a 400rpm drop! In the FBO's C172's I see 50-100 max.
[*]One gear leg is a bit rusty
[*]Cowling frequently comes loose in flight even with the screws tightened, its even on the guy's preflight list.

I only ask because I don't want to fly an un-airworthy aircraft. The lives of myself, my CFI, and those on the ground depend on it. It may have all the required docs but after the inspection it still looses cowling screws, 1qt of oil every 2hrs, and the controls act up. This past weekend while talking with the owner I looked at the flap tracks, one is rusted out! He's going to replace it but I am a bit apprehensive of such a poorly maintained airplane. Too many issues, I see a chain. Mechanical is rarely an accident cause but it may be in this case.

This guy doesn't fly it. He leaves the flaps down all the time. He also deflates the nosewheel (anti-theft :lol:) and he has had the same fuel in the tanks for months...not full either. Not how I'd pickle a plane. No sun sheilds or anything for his avionics/interior. Just duct tape over door levers and a hell of a time trying to start the engine!
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Knowing that cosmetics are not airworthy items, but there are a few discrepancies there that worry me.
one is the dent in the wing which effects the stall warning.
the cowling opening in flight, What do you mean? the oil servicing door? Or is this a PA 28 where half of the cowl opens on a hinge ?

I'm more worried about a CFI that will fly this aircraft with these discrepancies, and that would be the first thing I'd fix.

One of my self imposed rules that has kept me alive for over 50 years flying, is I don't fly junk. I'd suggest you do the same.
 
When reading the OP's first post, let's consider he's a student, probably not versed in what he's looking at.

such as a rusty strut on a 172, it's really a huge chunk of spring steel, and many are rusty in real life.

What I'm saying is, we may not be getting the real picture.
 
Reading that first post I'm fairly certain that the throttle issue is the deal breaker for me.

Rusty gear legs are fairly normal
The big drop with carb heat is probably a good thing but I'd have a look at the rigging and check the idle mixture to be sure.

The item that has me question your inspection skills is the comment on the rusty flap track, they are aluminum and do not rust.
 
Skylane81E said:
Reading that first post I'm fairly certain that the throttle issue is the deal breaker for me.

Rusty gear legs are fairly normal
The big drop with carb heat is probably a good thing but I'd have a look at the rigging and check the idle mixture to be sure.

The item that has me question your inspection skills is the comment on the rusty flap track, they are aluminum and do not rust.
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I think that the grease used can look like rust running down.
 
Skylane81E said:
Reading that first post I'm fairly certain that the throttle issue is the deal breaker for me.
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Are you sure he doesn't think in is off? many old trucks are that way.
 
Tom-D said:
When reading the OP's first post, let's consider he's a student, probably not versed in what he's looking at.

such as a rusty strut on a 172, it's really a huge chunk of spring steel, and many are rusty in real life.

What I'm saying is, we may not be getting the real picture.
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Even if the "rusty strut" is an issue of perception, a 400 RPM drop during the carb heat check and the engine accelerating rather than decelerating when the throttle is pulled all the way back (and only the mixture being able to stop it) are both well within the knowledge base of any Student Pilot, and those two alone are enough for me to decline any further opportunity to fly that airplane without a lot further investigation by a qualified mechanic.
 
Too many negatives to outweigh the current problems and the obvious iminent problems.
 
Ron Levy said:
Even if the "rusty strut" is an issue of perception, a 400 RPM drop during the carb heat check and the engine accelerating rather than decelerating when the throttle is pulled all the way back (and only the mixture being able to stop it) are both well within the knowledge base of any Student Pilot, and those two alone are enough for me to decline any further opportunity to fly that airplane without a lot further investigation by a qualified mechanic.
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That may be well and true Ron, but how far along is the student? What has been taught? and by who? I would expect if he were your student he would know the proper preflight process, but he isn't.
 
Tom-D said:
That may be well and true Ron, but how far along is the student? What has been taught? and by who? I would expect if he were your student he would know the proper preflight process, but he isn't.
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The strut isn't too big of a deal. I was looking at the overall. The aircraft has lots of issues. The owner doesn't exactly care for an airplane as much as I'd expect for a money pit to be cared for.

I am sure that I know what pulling the throttle out is, I pull towards myself. I have bummed about 10hrs in 172's and have 12hrs myself. The flaps tracks may have been oil or something. It was hard so I assumed rust but learning that they're aluminum, I remove that complaint.

The owner used to be a A&P (on 737's), used to being the keyword. I wanted to ask what happened but didn't want to offend him. I was hoping that that was a good thing but I do wonder about an A&P's personal airplane being such crap. He hasn't done any work on it and only does owner maintenance and such.

As for the cowling, it likes to lose screws in flight. The cowling then vibrates like crazy. The oil door stays shut. Mainly just the rear pilot side loses the screws. I think that the holes are stripped or the wrong screws are being used. I'm just worried about seeing a cowling flying into the empennage followed by a crazy spiral to the ground. I took a 45 min flight with the guy and I went through a couple of maneuvers (that I can actually do to PTS) and the airplane screams "park me!"

I'll decline the offer, I think I got too excited about being able to fly.
 
Tom-D said:
That may be well and true Ron, but how far along is the student? What has been taught? and by who? I would expect if he were your student he would know the proper preflight process, but he isn't.
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If he's far enough along to note the CFI's :hairraise: response to the engine accelerating when the throttle is retarded and identify the proper response in that situation (mixture-cutoff rather than mags-off, as a non-pilot would probably think), or to identify that a 400 RPM drop on a carb heat check is grossly out of tolerance, then s/he's far enough along to be credible on those issues by me.
 
Granted it's a 182 but my plane drops nearly that much every time.

A quick check of the mixture and for any blockage of the heat pick up will tell all that needs to be known of that system.
 
I'm going to reiterate my comment.

Not only no but hell no. ;)

Young man, keep in mind (as others have pointed out) that none of us have seen this airplane so we're the absolute worst people to be asking. Find someone you trust locally.

But... I based my advice on this: Whether you're inexperienced, experienced, a frakkin' A&P/IA, or anything else, doesn't matter. If something doesn't feel right about an aircraft's maintenance or airworthiness...

Don't fly it until you've found a good reason to lay those feelings to rest.

That advice works always.

The rest of this Internet bickering, you can take with the appropriate grains of salt. ;)
 
denverpilot said:
I'm going to reiterate my comment.

Not only no but hell no. ;)

Young man, keep in mind (as others have pointed out) that none of us have seen this airplane so we're the absolute worst people to be asking. Find someone you trust locally.

But... I based my advice on this: Whether you're inexperienced, experienced, a frakkin' A&P/IA, or anything else, doesn't matter. If something doesn't feel right about an aircraft's maintenance or airworthiness...

Don't fly it until you've found a good reason to lay those feelings to rest.

That advice works always.

The rest of this Internet bickering, you can take with the appropriate grains of salt. ;)
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I can buy that!

Some of the debate can be viewed as teachable moments though.
 
Is it in current annual?

The CFI is OK with it?

The owner still flies it?

Either of them strike you as suicidal? suffering from alzheimer's?

You can afford a small risk in order to fulfill your dream? I dunno, doesn't sound too bad. *I* wouldn't fly it, but I am not dirt poor and chasing a dream.
 
onwards said:
Is it in current annual?

The CFI is OK with it?

The owner still flies it?

Either of them strike you as suicidal? suffering from alzheimer's?

You can afford a small risk in order to fulfill your dream? I dunno, doesn't sound too bad. *I* wouldn't fly it, but I am not dirt poor and chasing a dream.
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Ha! Invite the A&P who signed off on it to go fly it with you. If he doesn't seem suicidal and declines, maybe you have your answer!
 
Ron Levy said:
In the first post.
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You'll note I quoted you from your post #27, where you seemed to agree that a 400 RPM drop was out of tolerance, where is your reference for thinking that?
 
bigblockz8 said:
"Carb heat has a 400rpm drop! In the FBO's C172's I see 50-100 max."
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There are 6 different configurations of heat muffs on the C-172 run from 1956- today.

A C172 with the 0-300 equipped with Hanlon Wilson 201 heaters will show you as much as a thousand RPM drop on a cold day. the 172 N you may not see any on a hot day.

It varies so much that Cessna didn't place a limit on the drop. So where does any one come up with the assumption that 400 is too much?
 
Free airplane to use... What do you want? If you're afraid of the plane don't fly it and pay for something else. Welcome to to playing champaign games on a beer budget. You're gonna have to pony up to play one way or the other. You pony up cash or cojones, take your pick.
 
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