Beech sundowner or Piper warrior

Speedy

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Speedy
would like some oppinions on these two aicrafts. The sundowner has the 180hp. The warrior has the 160. Which would make a better plane ? The mission would be weekly trips of around 200 nm one way and a 560 nm about once a month.

I have been flying a warrior and have never flow the sundowner. I hear the sundowner is better built and roomier inside.

Thanks
 
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Fly them both and you'll answer your own question and go home with a Beechcraft.
 
The Sundowner also has two doors if you have any mobility issues.

And might be a tad more comfy for um... broad shouldered... Yeah, shoulders... That's it... People... Than either the Mooney or the Warrior.
 
Im in the process of joining a club with a Sundowner. After flying a C-172, warrior, Arrow, and (flying in) a Mooney..... I like the Sundowner. Stable, but not as heavy on the controls as the Arrow, roomy, and the range is nice.
 
Im in the process of joining a club with a Sundowner. After flying a C-172, warrior, Arrow, and (flying in) a Mooney..... I like the Sundowner. Stable, but not as heavy on the controls as the Arrow, roomy, and the range is nice.
650 nm in a 110 knot ship....that's a long day of flying.....

He's not looking at the right stuff.

Bellanca Viking also comes to mind.
 
What does the sundowner cruise at?

I agree they look nice. The funky backwards gear though..
 
Fly them both and you'll answer your own question and go home with a Beechcraft.

Hmm interesting, a guy here bought one, overpaid and hated it, went to sell it, another guy here wanted to buy it, they couldn't get together on price so guy 2 went bought another one, hated it and it's for sale. They've both been sitting for sale for over two years, what I'd say reasonably priced (well guy one won't budge and has the opinion that someone''s going to pay his price or let it rot, Looks like it's going to rot) and I've yet to find a pilot or A&P say one good word about them... Even the owners.

And aren't the Beech parts expensive, even in aviation dollars?
 
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Gary has a Sundowner:
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45284
This guy bought a Sierra:
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42582

I looked at B19s for a while. For some reason they are noticeably cheaper than A23s, and that's with O-320s and O-360s! One thing I noticed specifically is that two doors are rare. I see no pattern in which Beech decided which airplanes to equip with them. It seems basically random. Very often it's next to impossible to tell if the airplane has 2 doors or 1 from the ad.
 
650 nm in a 110 knot ship....that's a long day of flying.....

He's not looking at the right stuff.

Bellanca Viking also comes to mind.

It's not too bad, I did 900 miles solo yesterday and we will be doing about 680 tomorrow with a friend. I like to fly, I don't mind if my plane is slow, that just means I can spend more time in the air :)

Also OP look at 180hp 172s
 
It's not too bad, I did 900 miles solo yesterday and we will be doing about 680 tomorrow with a friend. I like to fly, I don't mind if my plane is slow, that just means I can spend more time in the air :)

Also OP look at 180hp 172s

650 is all I want in a day in my Cherokee. Not bad though, I take a mid flight leg stretch and carry on. The good thing about slow planes is that you get to fly longer.
 
Gary (GMascelli) was in an agreement or flying club with the Piper, maybe an Archer, but similar, and then went ahead and bought a great Sundowner that he is flying like crazy. He would be a great person to contact and discuss the differences he found and the pro's/con's.
 
For a person with a screen name of "Speedy" you certainly picked two planes that are anything but.

I agree with Doc Bruce for those distances flown regularly, you want something a little faster. M20C, M20E, M20F or even a Tiger would be better if you want to stick fixed gear, fixed prop.
 
We haven't heard about payload requirements. That could make a difference between the BE23 and the PA28-161.
 
Got the nick name back in 1973 at the Police Academy. It stuck for life. Not worried about the speed so much. I can trade speed for comfort. Payload IS an issue. I need to have at least 900 - 1000. Gotta load up Mamma and two grandkids that are about 160 lbs each on the longer trips. I guess what Im asking is quality. I hear Beechcraft are much better built that the Pipers. There is a Sundowner for sale right now on Ebay but the owner will not go down a nickle. A bit pricey at $42,000 for a 1976.

Rusty can you put me in touch with those guys that want to sell ?

Thanks
 
Not worried about the speed so much. I can trade speed for comfort. Payload IS an issue. I need to have at least 900 - 1000. Gotta load up Mamma and two grandkids that are about 160 lbs each on the longer trips.
900-1000 payload or useful load? Either way, forget the Warrior -- it won't haul that much useful load, no less payload. And if you'll trade speed for comfort with that crowd, then the Sundowner really is your choice, assuming you meant useful load, since it sounds like your payload is on the order of 700 lb. If you really need 900-1000 payload, then you're talking Cherokee Six/Saratoga or Cessna 205/206 country.

I guess what Im asking is quality. I hear Beechcraft are much better built that the Pipers.
That's pretty much what most folks believe.

There is a Sundowner for sale right now on Ebay but the owner will not go down a nickle. A bit pricey at $42,000 for a 1976.
Equipment? Engine time? Condition (paint and interior)? Might not be that "pricey" if those things are right.
 
That's pretty much what most folks believe.

That's probably because most folks don't know much about any of the airplanes, and choose to believe whatever they choose to believe.

As a guy who got the worst ass-chewing of his life from Frank Hedrick (Beech president when the Mice were first built) for writing down the value of the entire production inventory because the dealers quickly learned they were POS airplanes and wouldn't buy them, there's much more to this story than the "Beech quality is better" BS that is bandied about by those spout the company line.

Truth is, sometime around 1960 Beech determined that their product line lacked an entry-level airplane to compete with C & P, and at that time the brand loyalty (Movin' on up) was a key element in GA marketing strategy.

To their chagrin, Beech quickly learned that they were short of magic dust insofar as delivering a superior product for the same price as their competitors, and the quality of the Mouse line proved to be no better (and in many cases much worse) than the competitors. Appalled,shocked and saddened aren't even close to the emotions described by many potential owners, and the design muddled along for ~20 years while enduring several marginally successful upgrades until Beech pulled the plug.

Meanwhile, the airplanes against which it was designed to compete were much more successful in the marketplace, and significantly outsold the Mouse and its derivatives. That's not to say that a Mouse is a bad choice, only that it's not necessarily the best choice simply because it was built by a company on the east side of Wichita.
 
Sorry Cpt Ron. Yes I meant useful load. We took the Warrior that I fly on a 150 mile trip last week. The CFI, 2 back seat passengers and myself. We could only put 24 gals of fuel to stay right at max weight.

You're problaby right about the price on the Sundowner. It's just above my budget. I need to hit that lotto one time.
 
Your mission changed when you want the airplane to carry 4 adults.

Neither of the A/C mentioned will be a good choice. You should be looking at a Cessna 182 or Cherokee 235 as a minimum.
 
900-1000 payload or useful load? Either way, forget the Warrior -- it won't haul that much useful load,

PA-28-161 Warrior II I fly is 950 useful load. You can get an STC for a gross increase to 2440, all three of our club Warrior II's have this increase. The STC is nothing but a piece of paper and some POH revisions.I'd guess its around 200 bucks


Fueled to tabs (34gal). At 10.5gph flight planning, 110kts (one with wheel pants and properly rigged will cruise at 120kts) this is acceptable. My last flight was right at max gross.

34 gallons fuel
350lbs in front row
320 in back row
70lbs baggage compartment


OP, which warrior are you flying? does it have a gross of 2440?
 
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PA-28-161 Warrior II I fly is 950 useful load. You can get an STC for a gross increase to 2440, all three of our club Warrior II's have this increase. The STC is nothing but a piece of paper and some POH revisions.I'd guess its around 200 bucks


Fueled to tabs (34gal). At 10.5gph flight planning, 110kts (one with wheel pants and properly rigged will cruise at 120kts) this is acceptable. My last flight was right at max gross.

34 gallons fuel
350lbs in front row
320 in back row
70lbs baggage compartment


OP, which warrior are you flying? does it have a gross of 2440?
Your numbers just don't compute unless your Warrior has a 180HP engine.
 
Your numbers just don't compute unless your Warrior has a 180HP engine.
Where? Those numbers look about right for newer Warriors I've flown (though cruise fuel flow would be more like 8.5 - 9 gph; his 10.5 gph likely factors in taxi, takeoff and climb).

Warrior MGW was 2325 from 1974 through 1982 model years, then upped to 2440. An STC is available to apply the same MGW increase to pre-1983 Warriors without a power increase. Climb performance isn't stellar, but it's legal.
 
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Where? Those numbers look about right for newer Warriors I've flown (though cruise fuel flow would be more like 8.5 - 9 gph; his 10.5 gph likely factors in taxi, takeoff and climb).

Warrior MGW was 2325 from 1974 through 1982 model years, then upped to 2440. An STC is available to apply the same MGW increase to pre-1983 Warriors without a power increase. Climb performance isn't stellar, but it's legal.

I burned less per hour on my last X-C...

I agree with the poster who said 235 or 182 for four adults.
 
Where? Those numbers look about right for newer Warriors I've flown (though cruise fuel flow would be more like 8.5 - 9 gph; his 10.5 gph likely factors in taxi, takeoff and climb).
No way, Jose. To get 10.5 gph on a 160 HP O-320 over any distance you'd have to be turning something above 85% power, and if you do that leaned out (which is what you'd need to get 120 KTAS on 10.5 gph) you'd cook the engine.

Warrior MGW was 2325 from 1974 through 1982 model years, then upped to 2440. An STC is available to apply the same MGW increase to pre-1983 Warriors without a power increase. Climb performance isn't stellar, but it's legal.
I'm just not buying the numbers as stated. regardless of the STC'd MGW.
 
Well, I happen to have a 1983 PA-28-161 with the post '78 wheel pants (duh) with a long legged trip profile, so here's my buck twenty... My mission set is 416nm one way, anywhere from 2 to 3 weekends a month. That's a lot of hours I'm putting on the thing. Around 8 tach hours per round trip.

The trip is painful. Beats driving for sure, and I do it non-stop, no autopilot (though Im /G..), because I'm solo and young. No way in hell I'd do that with a passenger, let alone 3. Single door is a retarded setup, a true contorting act to get in there. It's a simple and semi-economical ship for a 'certificated' (sic) spam can, and I have only one power setting: WOT. But it ain't a comfortable nor a perceptibly expeditious traveling machine.

As to the claim of 120KTAS? Sure at 8K on a below standard delta T day at redline. My engine is at TBO and I like it, so I run it hard, but most folks will probably try to dial back. At that point no way you're hitting that. As to indicating 120 under cruise power? LOL only on a dive. Maybe a cruise prop, and that thing has a scary low climb rate as it is, even for flatlands. A little too long with the nose up and you're already running at the top of the temp gauge. A Grumman AA5A can do that on a O-320 consistently. The trusty warrior? nah, it's frankly a 110knot block time cruise bird after you normalize for the two days of climb it'll take ya to get to altitude, even the later ones.

I usually take advantage of being under gross solo with full fuel and get away with climbing to the oxygen requirement altitudes (hold your breath for 30 mins or less am I right? LOL) on the way east and get some use of the tailwinds. No way with passengers I could do that. The climb rate is just embarrassing, especially in west Mexi-texas for about 3/4 of the year. Economy on the 180 hp versions of these samples don't impress me very much either (180hp C-172 and P-archer). Same airframe and really no significant increase in cruise speed for the added expense of capital acquisition cost and fuel burn, what I call "dollars per extra knot". The gas mileage actually goes down on the archer, I don't care what their POH says. All you're buying is 300-500fpm. That's a lot of keish for 5 less minutes on the climb and an actual lower gas mileage and range (again, the archer POH is out to lunch). About the only sensible 180hp upgrade to these airframes that I would say is worth the added cost is the Tiger (de facto 180hp Cheetah).

One thing is true. I can't complain about the time saved. For 30 grand and a whole ton of gas and parts money I shaved 10 hours of driving per weekend versus driving my jeep. To each their own. Ideally I should have driven more until I could buy the lancair but hey, "waiting to live" is for the dead.

I'll do this until I can sport a Glasair/Lancair since my mission doesn't require passengers, and if I'm going to contort myself the way I do in the warrior I rather do it @ 150-165KTAS and spend 2 less hours in the air round trip...oh and save a bundle on ADs and FAA red tape silliness. No way I'd pick either of the OPs choices for an airplane I intended on keeping long term for that kind of mileage mission and involving passengers of any kind. You're in 182/ Tiger/ 235 territory in my opinion. If I had to stick with passengers, I guess I'd go with the Tiger. When you add cylinders #5 and #6, and the constant speed prop to the equation, whooooweee that "dollars per extra knot" goes silly cost ineffective. The sleek tiger frame gives you the economy without the added expense of the prop and cylinder work. But that's my back of the napkin math, I wouldn't touch any of them until they went "owner experimental". But that's for another thread.

Good luck. Beats driving. :D

P.S. As to going slower on purpose. Meh, if that was true I'd have bought an ultralight or pencilwhipped my logbook. Time is money. You can always dial back 160-200+knots. You can't dial back 110knots, automobiles start embarrassing your financial choices at that point. Ask me how I know. :D
 
^^^^^^^^

It's why you see the plane in the sig line buddy.
 
No way, Jose. To get 10.5 gph on a 160 HP O-320 over any distance you'd have to be turning something above 85% power, and if you do that leaned out (which is what you'd need to get 120 KTAS on 10.5 gph) you'd cook the engine.

I'm just not buying the numbers as stated. regardless of the STC'd MGW.



10.5 is conservative. I plan on that and compute to have an hour left when I land. Tryin not to run out of gas.
 
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Climb sucks. I went up to 8000 loaded up like that.

As for 120kts, I plan on 110kts. The club plane with a fresh paint job and 50hrs on a rebuilt 320 will do a little better. The book says wheel pants add 7kts. I suppose that 115 is a more realistic number. None of our aircraft have wheel pants.

Not pulling your chain on the w&b numbers.

621a2cb4-0081-635d.jpg
 
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The archer II model I have flown had 950-1000 lb useful loads. It should also have a little more legroom in rear compared to warrior.

Mooney m20c may Hold the weight but I hear they are tight for 4 adults. I have flown a m20j and they are tight in the back with taller pilots up front.

Either of the planes with extra equipment/ new interior might not meet your 900# requirement.
 
The Warrior 161 Im flying now does have the stc for 2440 max gross. I did the numbers last night and it will take 4 of us with fuel to the tabs and just below gross. I am in NO hurry when I fly so speed is not important to me. Flying is still faster than driving.

Planing on a little trip to Key West this week end with all 4 of us. I'll let you know how that went. Made up my mind between the Warrior or Sundowner. Going with a Warrior due to initial price and availability of parts. Also flew right seat on a Mooney a week ago. No way in hell. Yes they are faster but I don't want to be touching shoulders the whole trip.
 

Interesting, fly it till it dies or modernize and refresh for a nice slick $100k airplane. There's a LoPresti cowl and TN kit available right? A single piece windshield and it be a cool modern Eco cruiser.

Notice that it has the stupid prop still on it. I got rid of them before and got a new pair of Top Props in return on this one.:D
 
I've never flown a Warrior, but I have flown the Sundowner.

I can say that the Sundowner is a very comfortable airplane with lots of cabin space. With a 180 hp engine, it's also a pretty useable airplane. Much more so than the 150 HP Sport, the Sundowner's smaller sibling (which I did my primary training in).

Any of the aircraft derived from the old Beech Musketeer airframe are all tanks. I've seen Sports, Sundowners and Sierras thrown and bounced around (quite roughly!) and just shrug it off.
 
).

Any of the aircraft derived from the old Beech Musketeer airframe are all tanks, and cruise at approximately the same speed as the Shermans. I've seen Sports, Sundowners and Sierras thrown and bounced around (quite roughly!) and just shrug it off.

FYFY:wink2::D
 
Good choice. I'm taking the warrior II up to the mountains this weekend. Once again, loaded to gross.. Won't be flying in to the 3000 ft grass runway 10 mins from my destination though.. need more HP for that. Fortunately a 5500 ft paved airport is only 20 mins away
 
I get tired of listening to all the BS about the Sundowner. It's a great plane for my mission and the large cabin works great. I flight plan for 110 and usually see better. The main thin I can recommend is buy the best avionics package already installed. If you want to fly a sundowner give me a call or send me an email. I answer any questions you have on the archer or the sundowner.

On the archer......I got tired of the piper roll to get in and out with my hip replacement and shot to hell knees. I did fly the archer II and loved it, well, all but getting in and out. I decided on ownership and wanted two doors and room, but that was my want list. I think you'll enjoy the piper. I actually think the archer II had a better useful load than my sundowner.

Best of luck....and whatever you choose, welcome to ownership!!
 
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