Beautiful, but worth the money?

Other 310's are bringing well under $100K, so I think he has a hard row to hoe.

Besides, part of the fun is customizing your own fixer-upper exactly how you want it.

I wouldn't buy it.
 
Great looking 310, but to answer your question, I doubt it.;)
No name of the shops that did the work, engines, paint, interior and even avionics. That doesn't mean they aren't done right, just makes me wonder if they buy and recondition them themselves? Nothing wrong with that, but I'd rather see RAM or factory reman engines, Jim Miller paint etc in the ad. :D
But, even then I think $300K for a 310R is very high.:rolleyes:

spiderweb said:
This looks gorgeous, but is really going to get $300k for it?

http://www.controller.com/listingsd...le/CESSNA-T310R/1978-CESSNA-T310R/1295687.htm
Click to expand...
 
txflyer said:
Other 310's are bringing well under $100K, so I think he has a hard row to hoe.

Besides, part of the fun is customizing your own fixer-upper exactly how you want it.

I wouldn't buy it.
Click to expand...

There's no nice T-310Rs selling under $100k, if you find one advertised under $180k, it's a rag.
 
I'd pay $300,000 for a pristine 310R over a $300,000 Malibu. Either way, it's way out of my price range. :(
 
bbchien said:
He approaching the bottom of MU-2 range....
Click to expand...

I'd rather have a really really nice T310R like that than a really crappy MU-2. I have such soft spot for 310's:redface:
 
Henning said:
Why considering you'd be at the same $$$? Do you know this particular plane and know the airframe as superlative? Just wondering...
Click to expand...

1. Already has RAM I conversion.

2. I'd much prefer the RAM overhaul vs. the unknown field overhaul.

3. Avionics are shiny on the one Ben posted, but the '77 has a few tricks there also.


Really a toss up, but mainly just gut feel.
 
Of course 300 grand would buy a nice Aerostar as well.
 
It won't sell for $300k. If he's lucky, he'll get $200k.

It's not a RAM conversion, it has a 530/KX155A (not even a 530/430 or 750/650). Lists no radar on board, Cessna 400 autopilot? The avionics actually aren't as great as they look at first. Beyond the G500, there's really nothing special in there. Field overhauls, who knows what the history on the exhaust AD is, I could go on and on.
 
James_Dean said:
I'd rather buy this one and put $100k in the engines in a year or two.

http://www.controller.com/listingsd...le/CESSNA-T310R/1977-CESSNA-T310R/1262987.htm
Click to expand...

On the whole I'd agree, especially since at the $160k asking you'd probably be realistically buying it for around $130k.

A friend of mine has a RAM IV T310R. I've never flown a RAM I, but the RAM IV is absolutely a wonderful conversion. I've been hearing mixed reviews about RAM work recently. One friend had his 340's engines overhauled. 0 SMOH, goes in for annual, finding problems. I think I'd find a different shop to do the overhauls when it comes time, especially with their views on LOP.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
On the whole I'd agree, especially since at the $160k asking you'd probably be realistically buying it for around $130k.

A friend of mine has a RAM IV T310R. I've never flown a RAM I, but the RAM IV is absolutely a wonderful conversion. I've been hearing mixed reviews about RAM work recently. One friend had his 340's engines overhauled. 0 SMOH, goes in for annual, finding problems. I think I'd find a different shop to do the overhauls when it comes time, especially with their views on LOP.
Click to expand...


BTW, I blame YOU for the 30+ hours I've spent in the last few weeks getting educated on 310's. :goofy:

The mental gymnastics thinking about +$500/hr are..... unique.
 
James_Dean said:
BTW, I blame YOU for the 30+ hours I've spent in the last few weeks getting educated on 310's. :goofy:

The mental gymnastics thinking about +$500/hr are..... unique.
Click to expand...

I'm glad I could be of help! :D

Let me know if you want to talk 310s. My costs are $300/hr wet, and I have to keep good track of it because of the non-profit. A T310R will cost more, but not $500/hr unless you try.
 
James_Dean said:
BTW, I blame YOU for the 30+ hours I've spent in the last few weeks getting educated on 310's. :goofy:

The mental gymnastics thinking about +$500/hr are..... unique.
Click to expand...

$500 hr:eek: You'd either have to be buying a junker or really running it hot and hard even with the T-310R. If you get a good one and operate for economy and efficiency rather than top speed you should be able to stay <$350hr.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I'm glad I could be of help! :D

Let me know if you want to talk 310s. My costs are $300/hr wet, and I have to keep good track of it because of the non-profit. A T310R will cost more, but not $500/hr unless you try.
Click to expand...

OOC, what is included in your $300/hr cost (without getting into too much personal financial detail).
 
CJones said:
OOC, what is included in your $300/hr cost (without getting into too much personal financial detail).
Click to expand...

That would be all in I'd think, except for debt service because the plane was donated.
 
Henning said:
$500 hr:eek: You'd either have to be buying a junker or really running it hot and hard even with the T-310R. If you get a good one and operate for economy and efficiency rather than top speed you should be able to stay <$350hr.
Click to expand...


Well.....

I figure $15k - $20k/yr in fixed costs.

$200/hr in fuel.

$100k for engines with a 1400 hr TBO is... $71/hr.

$20/hr depreciation on the airframe.

$90/hr in MX.

Etc.

You can get to $300/hr in variable costs, $85/hr in reserves, and $100/hr in fixed costs running 150 hrs a year pretty quickly. And that isn't figuring the cost of the money. Could it be realistically done for less? Absolutely. For running a realistic budget to cover a few contingencies? Probably close to light.
 
Henning said:
$500 hr:eek: You'd either have to be buying a junker or really running it hot and hard even with the T-310R. If you get a good one and operate for economy and efficiency rather than top speed you should be able to stay <$350hr.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind that for a T310R you do have more expensive overhauls, a higher fuel burn than what you and I have naturally aspirated (and your 470s burn less than my 520s), and you also have the exhaust AD that is very expensive.

CJones said:
OOC, what is included in your $300/hr cost (without getting into too much personal financial detail).
Click to expand...

Hangar, insurance (with a good hull value), fuel, and all maintenance. It's pretty much a 50/50 split between fuel and everything else and works out for 100+ hours per year.

Henning said:
That would be all in I'd think, except for debt service because the plane was donated.
Click to expand...

Henning got it right. However since we're talking operating costs, I wouldn't factor in acquisition cost even if we did have to pay for it.
 
James_Dean said:
Well.....

I figure $15k - $20k/yr in fixed costs.

$200/hr in fuel.

$100k for engines with a 1400 hr TBO is... $71/hr.

$20/hr depreciation on the airframe.

$90/hr in MX.

Etc.

You can get to $300/hr in variable costs, $85/hr in reserves, and $100/hr in fixed costs running 150 hrs a year pretty quickly. And that isn't figuring the cost of the money. Could it be realistically done for less? Absolutely. For running a realistic budget to cover a few contingencies? Probably close to light.
Click to expand...

Ted DuPuis said:
Hangar, insurance (with a good hull value), fuel, and all maintenance. It's pretty much a 50/50 split between fuel and everything else and works out for 100+ hours per year.
Click to expand...

Interesting. Thanks for the detailed info.
 
James_Dean said:
Well.....

I figure $15k - $20k/yr in fixed costs.

$200/hr in fuel.

$100k for engines with a 1400 hr TBO is... $71/hr.

$20/hr depreciation on the airframe.

$90/hr in MX.

Etc.

You can get to $300/hr in variable costs, $85/hr in reserves, and $100/hr in fixed costs running 150 hrs a year pretty quickly. And that isn't figuring the cost of the money. Could it be realistically done for less? Absolutely. For running a realistic budget to cover a few contingencies? Probably close to light.
Click to expand...

What are you $20k a year in fixed costs? As for $200hr in fuel, that's what I mean by running hot and hard, I showed Bob Gerace that he can run on 27gph and lose less than 10kts while reducing his repair/Maint costs at the same time.

But yeah, the T-R is the most expensive of the 310s to operate for sure.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Keep in mind that for a T310R you do have more expensive overhauls, a higher fuel burn than what you and I have naturally aspirated (and your 470s burn less than my 520s), and you also have the exhaust AD that is very expensive.



Hangar, insurance (with a good hull value), fuel, and all maintenance. It's pretty much a 50/50 split between fuel and everything else and works out for 100+ hours per year.



Henning got it right. However since we're talking operating costs, I wouldn't factor in acquisition cost even if we did have to pay for it.
Click to expand...

Yep, and the 520s are more expensive to maintain as well, especially the ones with the front alternator. I like the 470s better than the 520s, and since I don't haul loads I don't need the extra HP.
 
Henning said:
What are you $20k a year in fixed costs? As for $200hr in fuel, that's what I mean by running hot and hard, I showed Bob Gerace that he can run on 27gph and lose less than 10kts while reducing his repair/Maint costs at the same time.

But yeah, the T-R is the most expensive of the 310s to operate for sure.
Click to expand...


$5500 insurance
$2400 hangar
$1200 subscriptions
$3000 recurrent training
$3500 base fee for annual inspection

I was using 34 GPH average for fuel. I am certainly in the 60%-65% power club and am a comfortable believer in LOP ops, however in the T310 with Ram's "prohibition" on LOP ops I was figuring 50 GPH for first 30 min and 30 GPH thereafter. I would figure my first 100 hours would be conservative ROP and experimentation thereafter.
 
James_Dean said:
$5500 insurance
$2400 hangar
$1200 subscriptions
$3000 recurrent training
$3500 base fee for annual inspection

I was using 34 GPH average for fuel. I am certainly in the 60%-65% power club and am a comfortable believer in LOP ops, however in the T310 with Ram's "prohibition" on LOP ops I was figuring 50 GPH for first 30 min and 30 GPH thereafter. I would figure my first 100 hours would be conservative ROP and experimentation thereafter.
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$5500 for insurance will be your first year, after 100hrs you'll be looking at $3k on a $210k value. I wouldn't be running ROP regardless what RAM says, they're in the business of selling engines and repairs. ROP is expensive on cylinders and valves as well as the exhaust system and turbos. 27gph got those engines running right in the top of their sweet spot.
 
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Ted DuPuis said:
I'm glad I could be of help! :D

Let me know if you want to talk 310s. My costs are $300/hr wet, and I have to keep good track of it because of the non-profit. A T310R will cost more, but not $500/hr unless you try.
Click to expand...

Why so much?

What are the costs of a Seneca II - V, wet?

How about a Baron? I can understand a Baron getting close to $450 . . . .
 
spiderweb said:
Why so much?

What are the costs of a Seneca II - V, wet?

How about a Baron? I can understand a Baron getting close to $450 . . . .
Click to expand...


Gotta look at speed though. I ran my analysis assuming 30,000 miles of travel.
Seneca T310
Cost/Hr $353 $474 +34%
Cost/Mile $2.14 $2.43 +14%
Total Cost $64,140 $72,917

Baron would about split the difference. YMMV.
 
James_Dean said:
Gotta look at speed though. I ran my analysis assuming 30,000 miles of travel.
Seneca T310
Cost/Hr $353 $474 +34%
Cost/Mile $2.14 $2.43 +14%
Total Cost $64,140 $72,917

Baron would about split the difference. YMMV.
Click to expand...

I'm starting to get it. I think what I'm missing is that the T310 is a real bullet compared to the Seneca II - V series. Am I understanding correctly?

And pardon the dumb question, but am correct in understanding that the Seneca II- V is a 220 hp, while the T310 is a 300?
 
spiderweb said:
I'm starting to get it. I think what I'm missing is that the T310 is a real bullet compared to the Seneca II - V series. Am I understanding correctly?

And pardon the dumb question, but am correct in understanding that the Seneca II- V is a 220 hp, while the T310 is a 300?
Click to expand...

My analysis had the T310 25 knots faster than the Seneca. Stock is 285hp and the Ram I goes to 300. The Ram IV goes to 325hp and turns it into a real hotrod*.

*$200,000 :yikes:

http://www.ramaircraft.com/Aircraft.../Cessna/SM012C4-Price-Spec-Cessna-T310-IV.htm
 
With the belt alternators like I have, the 520s are pretty similar to 470s. I'm not a fan of the front alternators because of some nasty failure modes. But they do still burn a bit more fuel for a bit more speed, so it works out.

RAM's views on LOP only apply to you if the engines are under their warranty. However there's no reason why they need to overhaul the engines if you buy a used plane with their conversion. For ROP, one friend with a T310Q RAM I was getting 175 KTAS on 30 GPH.

As far as cost vs. a Seneca, the Seneca will burn a bit less fuel, but go a good bit slower for it. The 310s are quite good hot rods, and the Senecas aren't. A RAM IV T310R is absolutely as great as it's made out to be. Our 310's previous owner has one now. It's the only 310 I've seen/flown that makes ours feel slow.

Eggman, I've got some other thoughts on your numbers, but we're at the airport now.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
With the belt alternators like I have, the 520s are pretty similar to 470s. I'm not a fan of the front alternators because of some nasty failure modes. But they do still burn a bit more fuel for a bit more speed, so it works out.

RAM's views on LOP only apply to you if the engines are under their warranty. However there's no reason why they need to overhaul the engines if you buy a used plane with their conversion. For ROP, one friend with a T310Q RAM I was getting 175 KTAS on 30 GPH.

As far as cost vs. a Seneca, the Seneca will burn a bit less fuel, but go a good bit slower for it. The 310s are quite good hot rods, and the Senecas aren't. A RAM IV T310R is absolutely as great as it's made out to be. Our 310's previous owner has one now. It's the only 310 I've seen/flown that makes ours feel slow.

Eggman, I've got some other thoughts on your numbers, but we're at the airport now.
Click to expand...

Interesting.
 
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