Beancounter Question

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Jon
On a mortgage if the actual interest liability is Y if you took the loan to full maturity, and the actual interest paid over the life of the loan is X (less) due to your attacking the principle and shortening the life of the loan, how would you go about figuring what the actual interest percentage is that you paid on the life of the loan..

For some reason I am having a brain dump on this..:mad2:

Thanks
 
Define the "interest percentage" that you want to calculate. The APR will remain unchanged. A simple percentage of interest paid vs. principle can be calculated by dividing the principal by the sum of the interest paid.
 
There is no simple way to calculate the accumulated interest over the life of the loan in one step. Every time you make a principal payment, the loan term is recalculated based on the reduced principal assuming you make the same scheduled payment. Since the interest portion of the payment goes down with time, the phasing of the prepayments is important. More initially is better.
 
After you pay it off simply work backwards. You know the term, you know the principle, and you know the interest paid.
 
Define the "interest percentage" that you want to calculate. The APR will remain unchanged. A simple percentage of interest paid vs. principle can be calculated by dividing the principal by the sum of the interest paid.

I understand the APR remains the same...

I am trying to help my brother understand why doing a refi and paying points fees etc... and getting back in to a 30 year note vs just throwing the money at the principle and buying down the current note will lower his actual interest liability for the life of the loan by reducing the number of payments..

So lets say for discussion the original interest was @ 5% and the total interest for the life of the loan was $200K. Let say by making extra payments etc.... the actual interest paid over the life if the loan was $120K. How do I figure out what percentage the $120K equated to in a percentage figure?

Or does it...

Thanks for your help
 
I understand the APR remains the same...

I am trying to help my brother understand why doing a refi and paying points fees etc... and getting back in to a 30 year note vs just throwing the money at the principle and buying down the current note will lower his actual interest liability for the life of the loan by reducing the number of payments..

So lets say for discussion the original interest was @ 5% and the total interest for the life of the loan was $200K. Let say by making extra payments etc.... the actual interest paid over the life if the loan was $120K. How do I figure out what percentage the $120K equated to in a percentage figure?

Or does it...

Thanks for your help

How long did it take him to pay it off?

If it was a 30 year loan on 200k , and he only paid 120k interest the equivalent rate would be about 3.4175%
 
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I understand the APR remains the same...

I am trying to help my brother understand why doing a refi and paying points fees etc... and getting back in to a 30 year note vs just throwing the money at the principle and buying down the current note will lower his actual interest liability for the life of the loan by reducing the number of payments..

So lets say for discussion the original interest was @ 5% and the total interest for the life of the loan was $200K. Let say by making extra payments etc.... the actual interest paid over the life if the loan was $120K. How do I figure out what percentage the $120K equated to in a percentage figure?

Or does it...

Thanks for your help

It is still 5%.....

It doesn't change just because he pays sooner.

If he refinances to 3% on 15 years, he will save money (3% vs 5%)...
 
How long did it take him to pay it off?

If it was a 30 year loan on 200k , and he only paid 120k interest the equivalent rate would be about 3.4175%

How did you come up with the 3.4175% number?

Sorry I am brain dead today
 
How did you come up with the 3.4175% number?

Sorry I am brain dead today

I have an Excel file that I use to compare mortgages, paying it off early, etc...

I put in a principal of 200k, term of 360 months, and kept adjusting the interest rate until the amount of interest paid was 120k
 
I understand the APR remains the same...

I am trying to help my brother understand why doing a refi and paying points fees etc... and getting back in to a 30 year note vs just throwing the money at the principle and buying down the current note will lower his actual interest liability for the life of the loan by reducing the number of payments..

So lets say for discussion the original interest was @ 5% and the total interest for the life of the loan was $200K. Let say by making extra payments etc.... the actual interest paid over the life if the loan was $120K. How do I figure out what percentage the $120K equated to in a percentage figure?

Or does it...

Thanks for your help

The percentage doesn't change, it's still 5%. You will save money by making prepayments, but it's fallacious to consider some "effective" rate as lower by dividing the total interest paid by the full initial principal. You're still paying the same "rate", just on a lower principal amount, as if you financed for $150K or whatever instead of $200K.
 
Sounds like your brother is getting too wrapped up in the interest rate number and not wrapped up enough in the actual dollar amount saved when you pay a loan off early. Telling me I could save $100K if I paid the loan off in 15 years vs 30, regardless of the interest rate would be more than enough to motivate me. He might be a 'how much are the payments guy' rather than a 'how much does it cost' guy.
 
Sounds like your brother is getting too wrapped up in the interest rate number and not wrapped up enough in the actual dollar amount saved when you pay a loan off early. Telling me I could save $100K if I paid the loan off in 15 years vs 30, regardless of the interest rate would be more than enough to motivate me. He might be a 'how much are the payments guy' rather than a 'how much does it cost' guy.

My brother is this way.
 
I understand the APR remains the same...

I am trying to help my brother understand why doing a refi and paying points fees etc... and getting back in to a 30 year note vs just throwing the money at the principle and buying down the current note will lower his actual interest liability for the life of the loan by reducing the number of payments..

So lets say for discussion the original interest was @ 5% and the total interest for the life of the loan was $200K. Let say by making extra payments etc.... the actual interest paid over the life if the loan was $120K. How do I figure out what percentage the $120K equated to in a percentage figure?

Or does it...

Thanks for your help

How is the interest rate relevant to this problem?

Question 1) How much will he shell out between now and the end to pay off the current loan.

Question 2) How much will he shell out between now and the end to pay off the re-fi (this would include points, closing costs, etc. )

Question 3) Which number is smaller?
 
Sounds like your brother is getting too wrapped up in the interest rate number and not wrapped up enough in the actual dollar amount saved when you pay a loan off early. Telling me I could save $100K if I paid the loan off in 15 years vs 30, regardless of the interest rate would be more than enough to motivate me. He might be a 'how much are the payments guy' rather than a 'how much does it cost' guy.

He is more of a "well if I have a smaller monthly payment I can by more crap and maybe take some equity and pay of my credit cards" kind of a guy...

Sad because our father always told us to avoid or minimize debt at all cost.
 
How is the interest rate relevant to this problem?

Question 1) How much will he shell out between now and the end to pay off the current loan.

Question 2) How much will he shell out between now and the end to pay off the re-fi (this would include points, closing costs, etc. )

Question 3) Which number is smaller?

Exactly what I did... next is the Louisville Slugger upside the head with him...
 
This is one of those hard to explain without diagrams and several interest rate calculators doing comparison.

So, I'll see if I can help a bit without the numbers getting in the way. When you take out a loan, the interest paid in the beginning is very high, and the principle reduction is very small. That principle amount in the early part of the loan lets the bank make it's money back up front. Making curtailment payments(principal reduction) early in the loan helps a great deal to reduce the remaining principal, but after the half way point of the loan, there's not as much incentive to pay the loan principal down.

The next issues is the time value of money. It's why people borrow money to start with. If they had enough to pay in cash there would be no reason for a loan. Frex; paying $5000 today in refi costs is worth more than $5000 paid a few bucks at a time over 30 years. The money is worth more today, than it will be in 20-30 years.

Now, the delta between when it's advantageous to refi depends on the original rate, the number of payments made already, any additional principal paid against the load(thus shortening the payoff date), the interest rate of the new loan, and of course the up front refi costs.

Generally speaking, and this is a very generalized statement, with a conforming loan today, it doesn't make sense to refi until you can get an approx 2% reduction in interest rate, while limiting the refi costs to less than 2% of the loan amount. See how that works? Just try to remember the 2% delta. If the current rate is 5%, and it's still in the first half of the loan payments, and you haven't made too many early principal payments, then refi at the same term(30 years) would need to be ~3% interest rate, and refi would need to be around 2% of the loan amount.

Now, when I say generally, I mean there are a ton of variables. If the refi costs up front are only a few hundred bucks, then you don't need to get the 2% reduction in interest rate. If the refi costs are very high, like $6000, then the interest rate needs to be well under 2% lower to justify the up front time value of money, where that amount could be applied to the current loan principal reduction and would shorten the payoff term.

Best to take all variables into account, use a couple different calculators and figure it out. I would like to see someone change from a 30 year to a 15 year where the interest paid is lowered significantly. In this case you don't need the 2% delta to affect a better situation.
 
I would like to see someone change from a 30 year to a 15 year where the interest paid is lowered significantly. In this case you don't need the 2% delta to affect a better situation.

No need to change anything. Just make 15 year payments on the 30 year note. Still gets paid off in 15 years. The problem nowadays is that people will be like "Oooh, I have extra money, lets blow it on something stupid and keep the 30 year note."
 
No need to change anything. Just make 15 year payments on the 30 year note. Still gets paid off in 15 years. The problem nowadays is that people will be like "Oooh, I have extra money, lets blow it on something stupid and keep the 30 year note."

This. I'll pay my 30 year mortgage off in about 5 years total. I take some comfort in the fact that the monthly amount I "have to" pay is way lower than what I am actually paying. Of course it will be even more comfortable when its gone completely.
 
No need to change anything. Just make 15 year payments on the 30 year note. Still gets paid off in 15 years. The problem nowadays is that people will be like "Oooh, I have extra money, lets blow it on something stupid and keep the 30 year note."

It's possible to calc the amortization for 15 years and just pay that way. In many cases, that is the best way to go. If it's past about the first 7-8 years of the loan, there's no way to catch up to the 15 year amortization rate, but it still helps a bunch, and you avoid the up front cost of the refi. However, as with all things, the interest rate for a 15 year note is always lower than a 30, so you may reach the time value of money equilibrium by doing a refi.
 
No need to change anything. Just make 15 year payments on the 30 year note. Still gets paid off in 15 years. The problem nowadays is that people will be like "Oooh, I have extra money, lets blow it on something stupid and keep the 30 year note."

So you have met my brother? :D
 
Anyway.... thanks all for the help...

Sometimes being an older brother has it's challenges... I had lunch with the lad and I hope I got through to him on this...

Hopefully he'll heed my father's advice and get rid of the mortgage and all of his other debt ASAP
 
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