BDay Flying

Michael

Michael

Pattern Altitude
Joined
Feb 27, 2005
Messages
1,735
Location
Cape Cod, MA
Display Name
Display name:
CapeCodMichael
Well, The clouds disappeared today, so i decided to go pick up a friend at IFP and fly back to havasu for lunch then do the round robin to IFP again this afternoon. Well the winds had picked up sightly after the morning flight. HII was reporting 6knots right down the runway..No biggie. So takeoff was uneventful, However, after reaching 2500 and entering the canyon between Havasu and Needles, The wind got insane. I had full throttle, airspeed pegged at max rate, and nose high, I was loosing 400fpm. must be a downdraft, well after sinking for about 2 minutes..I started to get a little excited, there were no outs straight ahead if this continued. terrain was rising, and I wasn't. It was 70 digress outside, but i still was checking the wings for ice.... why was i unable to hold altitude? What was going on? Just about the time I was thinking that, i was thrown to the ceiling hard, and then the plane started to rise, peged the VSI I went from 1500 to 3000 in no time at all. That was exciting, And I figured since I was now exiting the canyon over needles, things would smooth out. Wrong..Only 20 miles to go to IFP and it was a rollercoaster ride the whole way. IFP was reporting winds gusting to 20 straight down the runway. I figured at least I wouldnt use much runway to land, Well it got interesting on downwind, while at 1800' the wind started pushing me faster than i was wanting to go, i was starting to get behind the plane now, the terrain was rising in the form of a dam, and i needed to turn base real soon, I also needed to lose, 50knots and get the gear down quickly. Well the turn to final accomplished all of those things immediately. I was looking at an extremely low groundspeed, and realized the winds were a whole lot higher than reported, at least at 500 AGL. about 100 AGL the wind stopped, the mooney sank like a brick..FULL POWER...!!...might have been 2 feet off the runway the engine gave me enough to stop the drop, but now a gust threw me sideways over the runway...HELP!!!..FULL POWER!!...GO AROUND!!... Then before i could do anything the right wheel caught the concrete and jerked the plane straight onto the runway, the nose wheel was still off, but i did not feel like going though that again...I pulled off the power let the nose settle down, tried hard to stay on the runway, and finally made it clear. After tie down, A pilot came up to me who was watching, and said, Wow, that looked like you were having a hard time there.....Wow, MR...You think?? I made a call and had a buddy come pick me up. The mooney will spend the night in bullhead. I got a ride home. Man What a flight!
 
BTDT - I had a similar experience. Winds out there can get very sporty.

In cruise you have to stay high and go with the flow. In the pattern is really exciting. Glad no metal got bent.
 
You probably hit a mountain wave on your down/up flight.

If you haven't already done so, you might seriously consider the Mountain Flying Course at Westwind at DVT. Jim Pittman, Westwind Chief CFI, worked with Greg Brown (of Flying Carpet fame) to come up with it after seeing more and more new pilots have problems with high DA and high wind situations. Very informative course and easy to do in a day. Not sure if they'd let you do it in the Mooney, though. We took a 172R to work with reduced horsepower for a better 'feel'.
 
Brian Austin said:
You probably hit a mountain wave on your down/up flight.

If you haven't already done so, you might seriously consider the Mountain Flying Course at Westwind at DVT. Jim Pittman, Westwind Chief CFI, worked with Greg Brown (of Flying Carpet fame) to come up with it after seeing more and more new pilots have problems with high DA and high wind situations. Very informative course and easy to do in a day. Not sure if they'd let you do it in the Mooney, though. We took a 172R to work with reduced horsepower for a better 'feel'.
Click to expand...


Yes Brian, Thats sure what is was, Its just that the 100 + times I've been through that same canyon I have never experienced that before. Weird day is all. I have contacted Westwind for the Mountain flying class, There is a 1/2 day ground then they fly to 3 area airports, sedona, flagstaff, and i think wickenburg. They did tell me, that none of their instructors could use my mooney so i would have to rent one of their 172s. I am waiting for them to call me back on the next scheduled class. I believe he said in April.
All the flying I do is in Mountains, I learned in mountains, I pretty much received a mountain flying course as a bonus for doing my primary flight training in Arizona. But one can never know too much.
What happened to me, made me wonder..What is the longest..farest downdraft encountered, and what can you possibly do? it is taking you down, even though you are doing everything that the airplane requires to climb. if the wave is long enough, what's to stop it from slamming you to the ground? My guess, and what i was about to do..Is turn around. I was evaluating my situation, and if I had lost another 100 feet, i would've turned around and hoped to make it out of there before i lost all my altitude.
Anyone here have stories of altitude loss due to mountain waves? how much did you lose and how long did it last?
 
Michael said:
Yes Brian, Thats sure what is was, Its just that the 100 + times I've been through that same canyon I have never experienced that before. Weird day is all. I have contacted Westwind for the Mountain flying class, There is a 1/2 day ground then they fly to 3 area airports, sedona, flagstaff, and i think wickenburg. They did tell me, that none of their instructors could use my mooney so i would have to rent one of their 172s. I am waiting for them to call me back on the next scheduled class. I believe he said in April.
All the flying I do is in Mountains, I learned in mountains, I pretty much received a mountain flying course as a bonus for doing my primary flight training in Arizona. But one can never know too much.
What happened to me, made me wonder..What is the longest..farest downdraft encountered, and what can you possibly do? it is taking you down, even though you are doing everything that the airplane requires to climb. if the wave is long enough, what's to stop it from slamming you to the ground? My guess, and what i was about to do..Is turn around. I was evaluating my situation, and if I had lost another 100 feet, i would've turned around and hoped to make it out of there before i lost all my altitude.
Anyone here have stories of altitude loss due to mountain waves? how much did you lose and how long did it last?
Click to expand...
The third airport is Payson, not Wickenburg.

I also took my primary flight training here but was amazed at how much wasn't covered for high country flying. Even Jim said that, at the time, they simply didn't cover the mountain stuff at Westwind but he was working to incorporate it into the curriculum. My DE made a big deal of it during my oral and we went through several DA calculations for Grand Canyon flying.

No stories here, mainly because I've learned to recognize conditions and avoid getting caught in them. ;)
 
Mike, some years ago I used to live in Flagstaff, and flew a Cessna 206 (260 hp Skylane, 6 seats) between Deer Valley and FLG frequently. One summer day with ABQ center I was IFR in an overcast at 12000 feet. Sudddenly there was turb, and a moment later the VSI was pegged (+). I could not get to my oxygen which was in the way way back. When it spat me out I was at FL 18. A mite dizzy for sure.

ABQ can't see any weather below 26,000 as their facility is at Sandia and looks over from behind a ridge.

I can't imagine the impact if it was in the other direction.

Anytime the wind is at 30 kts look for it. We can't outclimb 'em. You were probably very late in your turnaround decision. You either have to turn immediately, or fly Vy hoping to exit the system before you are smashed down...some think you need to fly Vy+10, that time in the system is the most lethal factor. My solution now is turbochargers and putting 8,000 feet between myself and the surface. At, near DBL that isn't quite enough, either.

You've just acquired a bit of judgement. You didn't get hurt. Good on you.
 
Last edited:
How much higher than the ridge do you need to be to avoid a mountain wave?
 
Some in the Rockies can go up into the mid 20s. So that implies about 10,000 feet. Efects can go 40 miles to the lee side.

That's why sailplanes are so popular in the intermountain West!

BTW, my wife, (such a tremendous pilot's wife that she is) and I went to Payson one spring day in 1991. The CAP was out in full force looking for Phoenix Fire Captain Brian White who had vanished the day before going to Snowflake, AZ to ski. The solar heating turbulence was so bad that she lost it- but she laid her nylon windbreaker across her lap, lost it into it, and there was not a speck in the aircraft. We threw the windbreaker into the garbage. Never underestimate the power of the wind and surface.
 
Toby said:
How much higher than the ridge do you need to be to avoid a mountain wave?
Click to expand...
As Dr. Bruce says it is a function of how big is the mountain and how strong is the wind.

Use the anolgy of a river and a rock. Slow river, big rock - no problem.

Fast river, big rock - big problems.

Out west you have big rocks and at certain times of year big winds. The soaring pilots call it lift. The rest of us call it turbulence - LOL

dan
 
Dan Deutsch said:
As Dr. Bruce says it is a function of how big is the mountain and how strong is the wind.

Use the anolgy of a river and a rock. Slow river, big rock - no problem.

Fast river, big rock - big problems.

Out west you have big rocks and at certain times of year big winds. The soaring pilots call it lift. The rest of us call it turbulence - LOL

dan
Click to expand...
As an avid flyfisher, this is EXACTLY the analogy I use and how I interpret the wind situation. It works the same way, just on a much larger and significantly more powerful scale.
 
ala737 said:
You can get severe wave as high as FL 410.
Click to expand...
Which will let you set records like this...

Absolute altitude : 14 938 m

Date of flight: 17/02/1986
Pilot: Robert R. HARRIS (USA)
Course/place: California City, CA (USA)

Glider: Burkhart Grob G-102

and this...

Gain of height : 12 894 m

Date of flight: 25/02/1961
Pilot: Paul F. BIKLE (USA)
Course/place: Fox Airport, Lancaster, CA (USA)

Glider: Schweizer SGS 1-23 E
Registered 'N91893'

For altitude not much beats California.

If you are interested in more Glider records try the FAI site - It's pretty amazing what you can do with no gas!

http://records.fai.org/gliding/

Dan
 
Michael said:
Well, The clouds disappeared today, ...snip...The wind got insane. I had full throttle, airspeed pegged at max rate, and nose high, I was loosing 400fpm. must be a downdraft, well after sinking for about 2 minutes
Click to expand...

Micheal,

You got some good experience, survived, and learned! Sounds like my trip up thu the Pulaski/Roanoke, VA area last month. High west to east winds aloft, got the crap kicked out of us. Hit one downdraft that had the VSI at -500 while I was at full power and Vy, lasted 3 minutes. Scary, altitude good.

I still havent decided on the way to get out of a downdraft, as Bruce says, there are a few ways to attack the problem.
 
Oh, yeah. On coast-to-coast airline flights, you almost always know when you cross the Rockies, even at 40,000'. Incidentally, note that the glider records are in meters.

A severe downdraft will not slam you into the ground, at least not straight down. Think ground effect. If you're moving downward at that rate, the cushioning effect of the air will be that much greater. The air can't keep going through the surface of the earth. However, you're also moving laterally, so if there's much terrain where the downdraft is (and there will be, since this happens in mtns), you might slam into the terrain as you continue sideways.

As always in flying, the important thing is not to panic. If I found myself in that situation (unlikely, since I avoid weather that gives rise to those conditions), I'd turn on the way down to orient myself down stream. If you're heading down a drainage, the terrain will keep falling away from you (water doesn't flow uphill) and you'll eventually be able to recover. Better just to avoid those situations altogether and learn to recognize those conditions quickly if they were unforecast.

Judy
 
judypilot said:
Better just to avoid those situations altogether and learn to recognize those conditions quickly if they were unforecast.

Judy
Click to expand...

Thanks Judy.
I pose another question, I have heard a few of you say you avoid these situations...I will give you my situation yesterday as an example..At HII and IFP the reported winds were way below 30 kts. Calm at HII. The closest Winds aloft are reported from PHX BLY and LAS all over 100nm away. None of them show winds at 3000ft. They do show winds at 6000 and 9000 but they were below 20kts. Going by this data..I would've believed that the winds would'nt be a factor. How do you prepare for a case like this...where you don't have winds aloft forecasted in the vicinity you will be flying, and the closest 100 miles away shows relatively calm? Is it just a crap shoot?
Pilot reports out here are rare. I think yesterday was a fluke. But I sure wouldn't want to do that again. Brian, Judy...What would you have done different? So maybe I will know next time.

Thanks :)
 
Colorado has installed a number of AWOS on mountain passes, which are invaluable for additional situational awareness of the winds in the areas. Doesn't help you much in AZ, but maybe AZ did or can do the same?
 
Michael said:
Brian, Judy...What would you have done different? So maybe I will know next time.

Thanks :)
Click to expand...
Typically, I'll watch weather on the western side of my course more closely, since we see westerly flows here.

I'll personally pick up METARs/TAFs for Yuma, Havasu, Goodyear, and a number of other areas. Combined with a look at radar (I use Intellicast but there are a variety of services out there), I get an indication of weather moving in. Fronts bring winds, either heavy or light depending on pressure differences. The FSS guys are pretty good at predicting stuff, too, if you ask them nicely.

The idea is to get a picture of not only what's going on locally but what is moving in. Here in AZ, it's way too easy to get lulled by the great VFR weather we have!

The Mountain Flying course combined with reading weather books and watching a few DVDs have helped me a lot with dealing with high winds and avoiding them whenever I can.
 
Michael said:
At HII and IFP the reported winds were way below 30 kts. Calm at HII. The closest Winds aloft are reported from PHX BLY and LAS all over 100nm away. (snip) Is it just a crap shoot?
Click to expand...

Looking at the Highs and Lows on Surface Analysis charts may give you an idea of what's coming. Also the isobaric charts for high gradients.

The deserts tend to be calm in the mornings and evenings and "cook up" during the day.

A lot of the ups and downs could have been related to thermal activity.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top