Basement Sump Pump Question [NA]

[CJones]

Last week Rachel and I moved back to Ames after a 3-year stint in the booming metropolis of Boone, Iowa. Our new place is a 3BR duplex with a partially-finished basement. Lucky for us (sarcasm), we are the side of the duplex that gets the sump pump in our basement. About a month before we moved in, the pump went belly-up and flooded the basement. They installed a new submersible and it appears that they also replaced the 'pit' liner. The 'pit' is appx 3ft deep and about as big around as a small wash-tub. The pump itself has a flexible float switch.

We got about 3" of rain in <6 hrs last night. When we got home late last night, the pump was running nearly constantly -- it would run appx 1 min, stop for ~10 seconds, run appx 1 min, etc. It seemed like it was starting-and-stopping quite a bit, but considering the water that was pouring into the pit, I figured it was 'normal'. Now, nearly 24hrs since we got the rain, the pump is still running off-and-on pretty consistently. It will run ~30 seconds, stop for 30 seconds, run for 30 seconds, etc. Is this normal? It seems like it is starting-and-stopping a LOT! It is a new pump, so I'm pretty confident it won't go belly-up yet, but at the same time I don't want there to be premature wear-and-tear on it for later. My thinking is that the flexible float might be set too short. It looks like the point where it attaches to the pump body and flexes can be loosened to allow more movement of the float. If I put more slack in the float extension, it would let the pit fill more before starting and get closer to empty before shutting off. Right now, it leaves ~6-8" of water in the bottom of the pit. I've never lived in a place that had an 'active' sump before, so I'm not sure if the constant off-on-off-on action is normal or not.

Any ideas?

 

[rmciottijr]

One problem with adjusting the float if you extend it to much it could get hook up and not turn on. Not saying you can't do it just keep it in mind. When the pump turns off where does the water come from? If it comes from the pump you could be missing the check valve that keep the pipe from draining back into the pit. Another question where is the pipe dumping the water, make sure the discharge pipe is not in a puddle outside and allowing the water to flow back in.

Bob

 

[955]

Ditto to the above.

We have a wet yard and an "active" pump much like yours.

If we're not careful about where the discharge goes, we keep getting it right back in the pit. Take a long look at where it goes and how it gets there, and definitely look at the check valve.

Cheap way to find out? Put a bit of dye in the water.

 

[CJones]

One problem with adjusting the float if you extend it to much it could get hook up and not turn on. Not saying you can't do it just keep it in mind. When the pump turns off where does the water come from? If it comes from the pump you could be missing the check valve that keep the pipe from draining back into the pit. Another question where is the pipe dumping the water, make sure the discharge pipe is not in a puddle outside and allowing the water to flow back in.

Bob

Good point about the float getting stuck. I'll keep that in mind.

When the pump shuts off, water is still dribbling in from a 4" tile line that appears to be coming from the foundation (from the wall). The 'interior' tile line (from the direction of the floor) is pretty much dry. It also appears that there is some feedback coming from the pump. The check valve looks fairly old. Once we get the wet weather over with, I'll check it out as well.

The outlet is ~60' away from the house. When we moved in, the previous tenants had an old hose going to the middle of the yard that had enough lawnmower-induced holes to be considered a sprinkler. Over the weekend, I got more hose and dug a trench running downhill ~60' away from the house. Run back from the hose outlet shouldn't be an issue.

After more through investigation, I think I'll make the check valve my #1 suspect. There really isn't enough flow coming from the tile line to fill the pit as rapidly as it is, so there must be quite a bit of water coming back in through the pump.

 

[CJones]

Ditto to the above.

We have a wet yard and an "active" pump much like yours.

If we're not careful about where the discharge goes, we keep getting it right back in the pit. Take a long look at where it goes and how it gets there, and definitely look at the check valve.

Cheap way to find out? Put a bit of dye in the water.

Thanks!

After sitting and watching everything cycle for ~5 minutes, I'm really starting to suspect the check valve. I'll try to dive deeper into that this weekend. An 'active' sump wouldn't be that big of a deal but the pit is directly below our bedroom. DOH!

 

[gprellwitz]

I'm not much help. We have the "opposite" problem. Our sump pump never goes on. There are cobwebs in the "pit"! Once every year or two we pour some water down there just to make sure the pump will still turn on. This is despite having one storm where about five feet of the backyard was flooded!

 

[CJones]

I'm not much help. We have the "opposite" problem. Our sump pump never goes on. There are cobwebs in the "pit"! Once every year or two we pour some water down there just to make sure the pump will still turn on. This is despite having one storm where about five feet of the backyard was flooded!

Oh boy.. Now you jinxed it!! We'll be having pool parties in your basement pool this summer.

 

[gprellwitz]

Oh boy.. Now you jinxed it!! We'll be having pool parties in your basement pool this summer.

LOL! (BTW, do you have portable O2 Kent could borrow?)

 

[RMCN172RG]

The outlet is ~60' away from the house. When we moved in, the previous tenants had an old hose going to the middle of the yard that had enough lawnmower-induced holes to be considered a sprinkler. Over the weekend, I got more hose and dug a trench running downhill ~60' away from the house. Run back from the hose outlet shouldn't be an issue.

What do you mean by hose?

If it's buried you should be using a length of drain tile at the end which is a rather large 4 inch or so diameter plastic pipe with holes so the water can drain out. Other wise you may be pressurizing the now too long hose and when the pump stops it's pressurized enough so the water is running in past the check valve. Free the flow at 60' downhill and the check valve should have nothing to stop except the little bit of water in the line from the sump pump up to the exit from the house.

 

[mikea]

My neighbor's sump pumps cycles really fast almost all the time. I know this because the discharge pipe goes into a storm sewer opening on my side where I see and hear it from my back yard. Where mine (which is outside, another story) runs for 30-45 seconds every 5-8 minutes, his runs for the same times very 1-3 minutes.

He said it's because the builder didn't make the pit deep enough. You may have to deepen or widen your sump pit.

I think the checkvalve would especially be required if you have a long pipe run from the pit to the discharge that can hold a lot of water. You'd be pumping that volume out on every cycle.

If you're interested and you need a sump checkvalve let me know which size pipe you have. I have 2 I've removed - a PVC one at 2" (I think) and a neoprene ring that's 1 1/2" I have to run mine without a checkvalve to prevent freezing. I haven't seen much of a bad effect yet. They only cost around $10 but I'd send you one of mine if you want. If nothing else to keep them out of a land fill.

 

[CJones]

What do you mean by hose?

If it's buried you should be using a length of drain tile at the end which is a rather large 4 inch or so diameter plastic pipe with holes so the water can drain out. Other wise you may be pressurizing the now too long hose and when the pump stops it's pressurized enough so the water is running in past the check valve. Free the flow at 60' downhill and the check valve should have nothing to stop except the little bit of water in the line from the sump pump up to the exit from the house.

I'm using a 1.25" flexible sump pump hose/pipe. The outlet coming from the sump is the same size, so I just carried the same size out the full length. I didn't think about pressurization causing blow-by of the check valve. This weekend, I'll pull the hose off and see if feedback through the pump is as bad. If so, I might have to pull that pipe up and go to a larger size. The previous tenant had ~1" hose running appx. 25'.

Thanks for the insight!

 

[CJones]

My nieghbor's sump pumps cycles really fast almost all the time. I know this because the discharge pipe goes into a storm sewer opening on my side where I see and hear it from my back yard. Where mine (which is outside, another story) runs for 30-45 seconds every 5-8 minutes, his runs for the same times very 1-3 minutes.

He said it's because the builder didn't make the pit deep enough. You may have to deepen or widen your sump pit.

I think the checkvalve would especially be required if you have a long pipe run from the pit to the discharge that can hold a lot of water. You'd be pumping that volume out on every cycle.

If you're interested and you need a sump checkvalve let me know which size pipe you have. I have 2 I've removed - a PVC one at 2" (I think) and a neoprene ring that's 1 1/2" I have to run mine without a checkvalve in one though to prevent freezing. I haven't seen much of a bad effect yet. They only cost around $10 but I'd send you one of mine if you want. If nothing else to keep them out of a land fill.

Thanks! I'll keep that in mind. If I find out the check valve is the cause of the problem, I'll let you know!

 

[Trapper John]

Thanks! I'll keep that in mind. If I find out the check valve is the cause of the problem, I'll let you know!

Just make sure the check valve has an air bleed or if it doesn't you'll need a small hole in the pump discharge line in the pit, so the pump doesn't try to pump against air.

Also, if the noise is disturbing you, take a look at how the discharge piping is attached/routed. It could be vibrating on some of the framing and amplifying the noise.


Trapper John

 

[mikea]

Just make sure the check valve has an air bleed or if it doesn't you'll need a small hole in the pump discharge line in the pit, so the pump doesn't try to pump against air.

Also, if the noise is disturbing you, take a look at how the discharge piping is attached/routed. It could be vibrating on some of the framing and amplifying the noise.


Trapper John

Huh?

The pump certainly "pumps against air" the first time it runs.

The check valve is upstream on the discharge pipe and its job is exactly to keep the column of pumped out water from flowing back into the pit where it would have to be pumped up again.

The drill hole in the base of the pipe trick is exactly so the pump DOES "pump against air," that is the water in the pipe at the pump drains back into the pit - leaving air in the pipe. I did that trick so the pipe wouldn't have water standing in it that could freeze - anywhere. Remember, I removed the check valve.

The pump isn't gonna suck air unless the pit is dry.

 

[jesse]

Are you renting this place? If so, are they cutting you a deal for this work? If not..I wouldn't touch it.

 

[Trapper John]

Huh?

The pump certainly "pumps against air" the first time it runs.

The check valve is upstream on the discharge pipe and its job is exactly to keep the column of pumped out water from flowing back into the pit where it would have to be pumped up again.

The drill hole in the base of the pipe trick is exactly so the pump DOES "pump against air," that is the water in the pipe at the pump drains back into the pit - leaving air in the pipe. I did that trick so the pipe wouldn't have water standing in it that could freeze - anywhere. Remember, I removed the check valve.

The pump isn't gonna suck air unless the pit is dry.

The reason for the air bleed is so the pump doesn't airlock.

Trapper John

 

[CJones]

Are you renting this place? If so, are they cutting you a deal for this work? If not..I wouldn't touch it.

Yes. I asked the landlord about it the day we moved in. He said he had it ran to the back of the yard (where I'm running it now) but for some reason, they moved it to the middle of the yard. I'm guessing they kept hitting the uncovered hose/pipe with the lawnmower and it kept getting shorter and shorter. He said to take care of it and let him know what I do/cost.

Most landlords that I have dealt with, after talking to them, realize that I'm not the type of person that will half-ass a job and I'm only doing something to make the property better (which benefits us both) so they trust me to do the work and are willing to pay me for it. In our last house, we ripped the carpet out of the kitchen hairraise:) and replaced it with vinyl tile. I was willing to donate the labor if he paid the cost of supplies just so we wouldn't have to deal with carpet in the kitchen. In the end, he actually threw in an extra $200 for our work (I ended up replacing all the baseboards because they had rotted out after several years of soggy carpet incidents as well as replaced the folding door hardware that had rusted for the same reason). He was VERY VERY sad to see us go!

 

[Dick Madding]

Tethered float switches

23 years with a hard-working sump pump, starting when the builder failed to knock out the plugs in the plastic basin and flooded the basement on Thanksgiving Day, 1984.

My first pump switches lasted about 4 years. When I couldn't find replacement switches, I bought the Lowe's Special: a Water Ace. The tethered float failed in 14 months. I sent the switch to the manufacturer who sent it back to their switch supplier who claimed fast cycling fused the points in the float switch, causing it to fail. (April, 1997) The Water Ace engineer suggested a larger basin to reduce cycle frequency. Since concrete was poured around the basin, rather than a jackhammer my solution was to lengthen the tether so that the water backed up about an inch into the inflow pipe (which is perforated, surrounded by small stones, and runs around the perimeter of the basement, half the perimeter into each of two basin inlets, to drain water from against the foundation. It is very important to have the landscape around the house slope away from the house, and to have the downspouts discharge at least 3 ft. or so from the house). The third and fourth switches lasted 20 & 22 months respectively. I'm still on the 5th switch after 48 months, although in our recent 100 year rain it did get jammed between the pump and basin wall due to high inlet velocity, flooding the (unfinished) basement which has nothing stored on the floor which would sustain water damage. Be sure the pump is set against one side of the basin and the float is free under all conditions. Maximize the length of the tether without having water go into the inlet pipe.

If you have a finished basement, the best way to obtain pump reliability is to install a second pump alongside the first in the basin, with the tether of the secondary pump float slightly longer than that of the primary pump. (Sounds like you might have a wide enough basin to do this.) Of course you will plumb an inverted "Y" to connect both pumps to the single outlet pipe, with backflow preventer valves in each leg of the "Y". Pump installation instructions will define exactly the diameter and placement of the drain hole between the pump and backflow preventer valve which eliminates vapor locking the pump. Electricity is reliable enough at my location for a second electric pump, or for maximum reliability, a domestic-water-line-powered pump. So battery backup is not worth buying, and depending on design, can have a reliability problem in the long run.

Lowe's here no longer stocks replacement tethered float switches which plug directly into the Water Ace pump. Instead they're stocking a tethered float switch that has an electric socket into which you plug the sump pump in the "on" mode, and the switch turns the power on and off to the electric socket. So you either figure out how to alter the sump pump to remain in the "on" mode after you eliminate the OEM tethered float switch, or order a backup OEM switch for $20 to have on hand in case of switch failure.

[You could install one of the socket-activating switches, plug an audible or visible alarm into it, and set the tether so the it's float activates at a water level higher that the sump pump, thus providing a warning of sump pump failure. I plan to do that . . . some day.]

Send me your email address and I'll send you a well-tested instruction sheet on changing the Water Ace OEM float switch in minimum time (about 1 minute). Dick (madding@dnaco.net)

PS I did have a corroded clamp fail on the backflow preventer valve, and the 9 ft. or so of head pressure made a heck of a racket. Time in service: 21 years. Your outside drain line must be free and clear, but if you're emptying the basin and not seeing it fill back thru the pump, your backflow preventer valve is working.

 

[CJones]

Finally came up with a solution today.

Apparently, the 1 1/2" -> 1 1/4" reduction was too much for the check valve. After pulling the pipe off outside the exterior wall and letting the pump run one cycle on that setup, there was nearly NO feedback through the pump.

I went to Lowes and got 25' of 4" solid corrugated drain pipe and 25' of 4" Perforated corrugated drain pipe. I have the 1 1/2" pipe coming through the wall going straight into the 4" solid pipe to carry the water away from the house and then connect to the 4" perforated to spread the drainage out a bit. Right now it's simply laying on top of the ground, but hopefully next week I'll be able to dig a substantial trench to lay it in and cover to make it less of an eyesore.

Thanks to everyone for comments/suggestions! You gotta be careful around this place (PoA) -- if you don't watch yourself, you'll learn something new everyday.

 

[mikea]

Finally came up with a solution today.

Apparently, the 1 1/2" -> 1 1/4" reduction was too much for the check valve. After pulling the pipe off outside the exterior wall and letting the pump run one cycle on that setup, there was nearly NO feedback through the pump.

I went to Lowes and got 25' of 4" solid corrugated drain pipe and 25' of 4" Perforated corrugated drain pipe. I have the 1 1/2" pipe coming through the wall going straight into the 4" solid pipe to carry the water away from the house and then connect to the 4" perforated to spread the drainage out a bit. Right now it's simply laying on top of the ground, but hopefully next week I'll be able to dig a substantial trench to lay it in and cover to make it less of an eyesore.

Thanks to everyone for comments/suggestions! You gotta be careful around this place (PoA) -- if you don't watch yourself, you'll learn something new everyday.

Right now mine run into 10 foot length which ends over one of my concrete roof tiles inverted. I still have had a lot of erosion at the discharge.

I gotta find out where the pro gets the discharge grate and freeze protection they showed on Ron Hazelton. Found it. I wonder if they sell it separately.

The house builder ran a buried pipe into the gully at the edge of back yard. One downspout uses that but for some reason the sump discharge pipe was pointed in the other direction. I bet it freezes up.

 

[Graueradler]

Finally came up with a solution today.

Apparently, the 1 1/2" -> 1 1/4" reduction was too much for the check valve. After pulling the pipe off outside the exterior wall and letting the pump run one cycle on that setup, there was nearly NO feedback through the pump.

I'm glad it works now but I don't understand it. Restrictions on the discharge side only have an effect when the pump is running. They will slow the flow rate so the pump would have to run longer to pump down to the shut off sump level and the pressure between the pump discharge and the restriction will be higher than with no restriction. Once the pump shuts off, the reverse pressure that the check valve sees is just the static head of the column of water above the valve (0.434 PSI per foot of vertical height between the check valve and the highest point in the line down stream of the check valve). When there is no flow, the pressure at the discharge valve will be the same whether the pipe is half inch or six feet diameter.

 

[gismo]

The reason for the air bleed is so the pump doesn't airlock.

Trapper John

You don't need/want a drain hole above the check valve to prevent airlock, a hole below the valve but above the pump's impeller will accomplish the same thing without dumping any water back into the pit when the pump is off.

 

[CJones]

I'm glad it works now but I don't understand it. Restrictions on the discharge side only have an effect when the pump is running. They will slow the flow rate so the pump would have to run longer to pump down to the shut off sump level and the pressure between the pump discharge and the restriction will be higher than with no restriction. Once the pump shuts off, the reverse pressure that the check valve sees is just the static head of the column of water above the valve (0.434 PSI per foot of vertical height between the check valve and the highest point in the line down stream of the check valve). When there is no flow, the pressure at the discharge valve will be the same whether the pipe is half inch or six feet diameter.

That's kinda what I thought. I didn't expect it to build back-pressure. The only thing that I can think of is that the hose/pipe I started out with was very cheap/flimsy and over the course of 60' of it, it has enough room to swell and build up back pressure. Hind-sight is 20/20 I guess. I started out with the cheap-o sump discharge hose. I thought the reason it was called 'temporary' was because it was flimsy and couldn't stand up to the rigors of being stepped on, moved, etc. I assumed that it would work if I actually buried it to protect it. Just goes to show what happens when you assume. Lessons learned.

 

[Dick Madding]

Sump discharge

I'm glad it works now but I don't understand it. Restrictions on the discharge side only have an effect when the pump is running. They will slow the flow rate so the pump would have to run longer to pump down to the shut off sump level and the pressure between the pump discharge and the restriction will be higher than with no restriction. Once the pump shuts off, the reverse pressure that the check valve sees is just the static head of the column of water above the valve (0.434 PSI per foot of vertical height between the check valve and the highest point in the line down stream of the check valve). When there is no flow, the pressure at the discharge valve will be the same whether the pipe is half inch or six feet diameter.

Agreed. At the top of the pipe from the discharge valve there should be some variation of an inverted "U" and the discharge pipe should slope away from the house. On mine the 1 1/2" PVC discharge pipe(same size as comes out of the backflow preventer valve) is underground downhill out to the corner of the yard. Since the adjacent property is unimproved, the small basin created at the discharge end is not a problem. But I do like the idea of the Landscape Outlet at the end which would eliminate the basin effect I have now (I placed fist-size stones to minimize erosion).

AND, not long after the discharge pipe goes underground beyond the inverted "U", there is another small relief hole (1/16" or so) drilled in the top of the pipe angled with the flow and surrounded by rock to ensure that the line drains completely each time the pump runs. It "whistles" a bit as the 50' of line drains if you're paying attention, but a small price to pay for no freezing problems, even in below zero weather (Southwestern Ohio). And with a spring somewhere on the hill above us plus humidifier water going into the pump, it does run in below-freezing weather.

The "backflow" you're seeing out of the pump is the water between the pump and the relief hole on the pump side of the backflow preventer valve. Your valve is working correctly, and there is a column of water above the valve. You can check this and spray some water by loosening the top clamp of the connection between the top of the valve and the discharge pipe.

Redundant-minded pilots will have a spare float switch on hand, which is the most likely point of system failure in my experience.

 

[Skip Miller]

Re: Sump discharge

Redundant-minded pilots will have a spare float switch on hand, which is the most likely point of system failure in my experience.

...and a generator in case of power failures, which are not uncommon in big storms.

-Skip

 

[Dick Madding]

Backup pump

...and a generator in case of power failures, which are not uncommon in big storms.

-Skip

From my earlier post: "Electricity is reliable enough at my location for a second electric pump, or for maximum reliability, a domestic-water-line-powered pump."

My electric is underground from a sub-station and in 23 years we haven't had any storm-related outages (that doesn't mean it couldn't happen). But if I had something in a finished basement more expensive than floor covering, I'd opt for the domestic water-powered backup sump pump. Less expensive than a generator, unless you need a generator for extended outages (refrigerators, freezers, and blowers for gas furnaces).

 

[mikea]

Re: Backup pump

From my earlier post: "Electricity is reliable enough at my location for a second electric pump, or for maximum reliability, a domestic-water-line-powered pump."

My electric is underground from a sub-station and in 23 years we haven't had any storm-related outages (that doesn't mean it couldn't happen). But if I had something in a finished basement more expensive than floor covering, I'd opt for the domestic water-powered backup sump pump. Less expensive than a generator, unless you need a generator for extended outages (refrigerators, freezers, and blowers for gas furnaces).

The only scary thing about those is whether you can have an alarm that indicates the water-powered pump is operating. You wouldn't want your first notice to be a $15,000 water bill.

 

[Henning]

Last week Rachel and I moved back to Ames after a 3-year stint in the booming metropolis of Boone, Iowa. Our new place is a 3BR duplex with a partially-finished basement. Lucky for us (sarcasm), we are the side of the duplex that gets the sump pump in our basement. About a month before we moved in, the pump went belly-up and flooded the basement. They installed a new submersible and it appears that they also replaced the 'pit' liner. The 'pit' is appx 3ft deep and about as big around as a small wash-tub. The pump itself has a flexible float switch.

We got about 3" of rain in <6 hrs last night. When we got home late last night, the pump was running nearly constantly -- it would run appx 1 min, stop for ~10 seconds, run appx 1 min, etc. It seemed like it was starting-and-stopping quite a bit, but considering the water that was pouring into the pit, I figured it was 'normal'. Now, nearly 24hrs since we got the rain, the pump is still running off-and-on pretty consistently. It will run ~30 seconds, stop for 30 seconds, run for 30 seconds, etc. Is this normal? It seems like it is starting-and-stopping a LOT! It is a new pump, so I'm pretty confident it won't go belly-up yet, but at the same time I don't want there to be premature wear-and-tear on it for later. My thinking is that the flexible float might be set too short. It looks like the point where it attaches to the pump body and flexes can be loosened to allow more movement of the float. If I put more slack in the float extension, it would let the pit fill more before starting and get closer to empty before shutting off. Right now, it leaves ~6-8" of water in the bottom of the pit. I've never lived in a place that had an 'active' sump before, so I'm not sure if the constant off-on-off-on action is normal or not.

Any ideas?

"Bump" the float to see if it's sticking, although if it's cycling, that means it's working, and you are still getting drainage.

 

[Dick Madding]

Re: Backup pump

The only scary thing about those is whether you can have an alarm that indicates the water-powered pump is operating. You wouldn't want your first notice to be a $15,000 water bill.

This one is 1:1 Uses 1 gal. of water to pump 1 gal. out of sump. In Dayton, that could get real pricey. But it does meet the long-term reliability requirement.

http://www.do-it-yourself-pumps.com/homeguard.htm