Baron down at Lagrange Ga, 3 killed

When it comes right down to it, the guy flying the Baron lost or gave up control of his aircraft. This wasn't a collision, regardless what anyone else did that precipitated the pilot's actions, in the end the blame for the crash and consequences lies square on the Baron pilot.
 
Henning said:
When it comes right down to it, the guy flying the Baron lost or gave up control of his aircraft. This wasn't a collision, regardless what anyone else did that precipitated the pilot's actions, in the end the blame for the crash and consequences lies square on the Baron pilot.
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Unfortunately correct. At most the glider will be a contributing factor.
 
timwinters said:
It's possible the "abort" calls came from the tow plane or glider? That would make more sense to me as to why it was heard over CTAF.
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From what I have seen reported, the 'Abort' call came from the tow pilot. Now, that same 'report' also said that neither the tow plane nor the glider were airborne during the event, so I'm starting to question its accuracy on the finer details of the event.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Unfortunately correct. At most the glider will be a contributing factor.
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The abort call came from the CAP operation...not sure whether from tow plane, glider, or someone on the ground.

I'm not sure about CAP ops at this airport, but I do believe the club generally stations someone with a radio near the intersection to watch for conflicting traffic. I haven't been to LGC in a long time, but I don't think you can see RW31 from RW3 due to trees.

At the end of the day, the glider/tow plane were in motion but aborted the takeoff and did not cross the runway used by the Baron. The Baron pilot lost control of the airplane for whatever reason and three guys paid with their lives....which sucks.

Hopefully the full report will tell the whole story.
 
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Pappy said:
The abort call came from the CAP operation...not sure whether from tow plane, glider, or someone on the ground.

I'm not sure about CAP ops at this airport, but I do believe the club generally stations someone with a radio near the intersection to watch for conflicting traffic.

At the end of the day, the glider/tow plane were in motion but aborted the takeoff and did not cross the runway used by the Baron. The Baron pilot lost control of the airplane for whatever reason and three guys paid with their lives....which sucks.

Hopefully the full report will tell the whole story.
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Apparantly they missed the incoming twin on short final..:mad::mad2:..

The Baron probably saw the conflicting tow plane and glider headed for him out his corner of his eye, swerved to miss it and crashed...

I can't wait to see and hear how the CAP tries to worm it's way out if this fatality...:(
 
N801BH said:
Apparantly they missed the incoming twin on short final..:mad::mad2:..

The Baron probably saw the conflicting tow plane and glider headed for him out his corner of his eye, swerved to miss it and crashed...

I can't wait to see and hear how the CAP tries to worm it's way out if this fatality...:(
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Not defending CAP clowns but if you crash swerving an airplane it is your fault.
 
Curious, what practical purpose would gliders serve for the CAP?
 
N801BH said:
Apparantly they missed the incoming twin on short final..:mad::mad2:..

The Baron probably saw the conflicting tow plane and glider headed for him out his corner of his eye, swerved to miss it and crashed...

I can't wait to see and hear how the CAP tries to worm it's way out if this fatality...:(
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Read my edited message. I don't believe you can see 31 from the end of 3...hence the need for a radioman or trust that everyone is talking/monitoring CTAF (bad plan). He crashed because he lost control of the airplane for some reason. Whether he paniced and stalled it, was out of trim in a new-to-him airplane, lost an engine at a bad time, became incapacitated...who knows..
 
timwinters said:
Curious, what practical purpose would gliders serve for the CAP?
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So they can quietly sneak up on German uboats.:D Seriously when CAP rebranded itself, post submarine menace, education is one of their stated missions. Cadet ed tool.
 
N801BH said:
Apparantly they missed the incoming twin on short final..:mad::mad2:..

The Baron probably saw the conflicting tow plane and glider headed for him out his corner of his eye, swerved to miss it and crashed...

I can't wait to see and hear how the CAP tries to worm it's way out if this fatality...:(
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Also, the club was not operating on this day...only CAP.
 
Fearless Tower said:
They can search without being heard......or something like that. Probably has something to do with the glider program at USAFA.
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So part of their mission statement is spying on American citizens? Interesting

Admittedly, I know very little about the CAP but the view from my bridge is that this glider operation is a way to get the government to pay for many someones' hobbies. I can't come up with a legitimate reason for it, but maybe there is one.
 
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N801BH said:
Apparantly they missed the incoming twin on short final..:mad::mad2:..

The Baron probably saw the conflicting tow plane and glider headed for him out his corner of his eye, swerved to miss it and crashed...

I can't wait to see and hear how the CAP tries to worm it's way out if this fatality...:(
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I'm no fan of CAP, but they have nothing to worm out of. This one is straight up on the Baron pilot.
 
timwinters said:
So part of their mission statement is spying on American citizens? Interesting



Admittedly, I know very little about the CAP but the view from my bridge is that this glider operation is a way to get the government to pay for many someones' hobbies. I can't come up with a legitimate reason for it, but maybe there is one.
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I was jokingly referring to stealth SAR.
 
Henning said:
I'm no fan of CAP, but they have nothing to worm out of. This one is straight up on the Baron pilot.
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From a strictly aviation sense, yes. BUT there are three dead people whose families are likely going to be interested IF it can be determined that the Baron pilot lost control because he was maneuvering to avoid the tow plane /glider.
 
Fearless Tower said:
They can search without being heard......or something like that. Probably has something to do with the glider program at USAFA.
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It's not hard to figure out.

CAP has THREE missions. One is SAR (well, actually emergency services, which also includes things like transporting supplies and communications, as well as chasing down all those errant ELTs you hear on 121.5).

Another is "aerospace education." I'll leave you to figure out how any type of flying for cadets might fit into that.

Gliders are much cheaper to operate than powered aircraft for any operation longer than an instant landing, and give a substantially better understanding of the atmosphere and flight dynamics.

The FAA no longer has a mission to promote aviation. CAP still does.

Most of this stuff can be figured out at the top level of their home page. But I guess it's more fun to operate out of 40 year old assumptions.
 
MAKG1 said:
It's not hard to figure out.



CAP has THREE missions. One is SAR (well, actually emergency services, which also includes things like transporting supplies and communications, as well as chasing down all those errant ELTs you hear on 121.5).



Another is "aerospace education." I'll leave you to figure out how any type of flying for cadets might fit into that.



Gliders are much cheaper to operate than powered aircraft for any operation longer than an instant landing, and give a substantially better understanding of the atmosphere and flight dynamics.



The FAA no longer has a mission to promote aviation. CAP still does.



Most of this stuff can be figured out at the top level of their home page. But I guess it's more fun to operate out of 40 year old assumptions.
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Like I said in my less joking comment. Something along the lines of the glider program at USAFA.
 
Fearless Tower said:
From a strictly aviation sense, yes. BUT there are three dead people whose families are likely going to be interested IF it can be determined that the Baron pilot lost control because he was maneuvering to avoid the tow plane /glider.
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Even if he was, so what? He should not have lost control. There is nothing inherent to close quarters maneuvering that causes a loss of control.
 
Henning said:
Even if he was, so what? He should not have lost control. There is nothing inherent to close quarters maneuvering that causes a loss of control.
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I think he's alluding to the lawsuits that inevitably follow these types of things. It seems like the general approach is to sue everyone and everything with any connection to the accident and see what sticks.
 
Henning said:
Even if he was, so what? He should not have lost control. There is nothing inherent to close quarters maneuvering that causes a loss of control.
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Assumption: If a not-in-the-right-of-way glider operation caused you to have to bank or move suddenly, and you lost it, wouldn't you ascribe just a smidge of responsibility to that operation?

I know you're a twin owner and much higher time pilot than me, but we know you can stall an airplane very easy at any speed, attitude, or angle. I don't fly twins, but it appears from utube and what I read they can be especially twitchy during stalls and power up banks I'm assuming. Very little margin for error. Are you saying you could recover from any emergency maneuver or even a stall in your twin at that low altitude, and the baron pilot just freaked out? Help me understand. Should he have just plowed into everything under control? As it turned out, they're all dead, so staying in control even if it meant hitting the tow plane or line could not have been worse for the Baron. It might have killed more people, so the baron pilot may have hero'd himself for all we know. :dunno: But stay under control is the moral of this story imo.

I'm working it from the Baron pilot's side here for no other reason than discussion ... :redface:
 
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timwinters said:
Curious, what practical purpose would gliders serve for the CAP?
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Part of aerospace education for the cadets. Has nothing to do with the SAR side of the organization.
 
Fearless Tower said:
From a strictly aviation sense, yes. BUT there are three dead people whose families are likely going to be interested IF it can be determined that the Baron pilot lost control because he was maneuvering to avoid the tow plane /glider.
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He did what he was supposed to do. Aircraft in towing or inflight refueling operations have ROW over powered aircraft.
 
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txflyer said:
Assumption: If a not-in-the-right-of-way glider operation caused you to have to bank or move suddenly, and you lost it, wouldn't you ascribe just a smidge of responsibility to that operation?

I know you're a twin owner and much higher time pilot than me, but we know you can stall an airplane very easy at any speed, attitude, or angle. I don't fly twins, but it appears from utube and what I read they can be especially twitchy during stalls and power up banks I'm assuming. Very little margin for error. Are you saying you could recover from any emergency maneuver or even a stall in your twin at that low altitude, and the baron pilot just freaked out? Help me understand. Should he have just plowed into everything under control? As it turned out, they're all dead, so staying in control even if it meant hitting the tow plane or line could not have been worse for the Baron. It might have killed more people, so the baron pilot may have hero'd himself for all we know. :dunno: But stay under control is the moral of this story imo.

I'm working it from the Baron pilot's side here for no other reason than discussion ... :redface:
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Throttles forward, fly the plane, nothing different in a twin or single about that except extra horsepower and ability to climb. A Baron is no more 'twitchy' than a Bonanza. If he went full throttle on an engine failure below red line, yeah, he has trouble, but outside of that, if he had the energy to miss them, he had the energy to fly out since he had two operating engines.
 
Henning said:
Throttles forward, fly the plane, nothing different in a twin or single about that except extra horsepower and ability to climb. A Baron is no more 'twitchy' than a Bonanza. If he went full throttle on an engine failure below red line, yeah, he has trouble, but outside of that, if he had the energy to miss them, he had the energy to fly out since he had two operating engines.
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In that case, if he had two good engines, then I'd lean toward agreeing with you he just lost control and that's on him in it's most basic form. RIP
 
weilke said:
He did what he was supposed to do. Aircraft in towing or inflight refueling operations have ROW over powered aircraft.
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"Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach."

The rule you are probably thinking of only applies when aircraft are converging at approximately the same altitude. A lot of people seem to have over-generalized the applicability of the sentence "However, an aircraft towing...."
 
Jim Logajan said:
"Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach."

The rule you are probably thinking of only applies when aircraft are converging at approximately the same altitude. A lot of people seem to have over-generalized the applicability of the sentence "However, an aircraft towing...."
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Maybe the parts I bolded above will make sense. The landing aircraft had right of way over the tow plane on the ground.

The Baron pilot may have lost control trying to dodge what he saw as a traffic conflict. If I start to pull out in front of you, then lock up the brakes and stop, am I not to blame if there is an accident when you try to not hit me?

Maybe the NTSB will be able to figure out what happened . . . . . eventually.
 
I think right of way has zero applicability here. Even if it did, the tow plane and glider arguably gave way by aborting the takeoff roll and not entering the crossing runway.
 
Pappy said:
I think right of way has zero applicability here. Even if it did, the tow plane and glider arguably gave way by aborting the takeoff roll and not entering the crossing runway.
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Exactly. Continuing the automotive analogy, if I see you start to move towards the highway I'm traveling on from a side street and as a result I swerve and lose control even though you stopped well before entering the highway I think I'd have a hard time convincing your insurance company that you were at fault.
 
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