Baron and Meridian

spiderweb

spiderweb

Final Approach
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Anyone with experience in either?

Which is cheaper to maintain. I'm asking especially about care and feeding of the engines--two big pistons compared to one turboprop.
 
A neighbor recently upgraded his immaculately maintained 2001 M20 to a Meridian. He says it is looking like the same amount of money per year for all costs, less fuel. Apparently not having to do oil changes every 25 hours really helps. :p
 
Because it's a turbine, the Meridian is going to have more maintenance exposure. While the Baron has two engines, those engines use relatively inexpensive parts compared to a turbine. The PT6 is very reliable and robust, but if something does go wrong, the bill could be much, much higher. Additionally, the Median is a good deal more complicated systems-wise than a Baron (pressurization, etc.), so that's going to add to your maintenance bills.
 
I did the analysis back in 2011. At the time, I was looking at used Meridian or Jetprop versus the Aerostar and Baron 58 and Baron 58P (among other planes).
On a cost basis (all MX, inspections, fuel, oil, engine/prop reserve) the Meridian was slightly cheaper then any of the piston twins. The difference was a matter of pennies per mile. This included my estimated depreciation of the asset (15% a year), interest on capital (3%), insurance (2% hull value)... Every cost I could think of and verify.
There was really only two factors why I picked the Aerostar over the Meridian. 1. The Aerostar was a lot more fun to fly. 2. The oh sh** factor.
The oh sh** factor is if you break something on the Meridian, the price is much higher then a piston twin. Therefore, if you can afford the oh sh** factor, I would personally go the SETP route. Piston twin prices have collapsed to the point you are starting to discuss salvage value...

Tim
 
catmandu said:
A neighbor recently upgraded his immaculately maintained 2001 M20 to a Meridian. He says it is looking like the same amount of money per year for all costs, less fuel. Apparently not having to do oil changes every 25 hours really helps. :p
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Really? I find that hard to believe. Is he saving up for his hot section?
 
tspear said:
I did the analysis back in 2011. At the time, I was looking at used Meridian or Jetprop versus the Aerostar and Baron 58 and Baron 58P (among other planes).
On a cost basis (all MX, inspections, fuel, oil, engine/prop reserve) the Meridian was slightly cheaper then any of the piston twins. The difference was a matter of pennies per mile. This included my estimated depreciation of the asset (15% a year), interest on capital (3%), insurance (2% hull value)... Every cost I could think of and verify.
There was really only two factors why I picked the Aerostar over the Meridian. 1. The Aerostar was a lot more fun to fly. 2. The oh sh** factor.
The oh sh** factor is if you break something on the Meridian, the price is much higher then a piston twin. Therefore, if you can afford the oh sh** factor, I would personally go the SETP route. Piston twin prices have collapsed to the point you are starting to discuss salvage value...

Tim
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Thanks! This really helps!
 
spiderweb said:
Really? I find that hard to believe. Is he saving up for his hot section?
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First HSI should be under $15/hr.

I figure oil changes are $8/hr, plugs $4, and mags are $6 for a piston twin that is being well maintained.
 
FWIW, I'm under no illusion that my twin turboprop is cheaper than a cabin class piston, but I do think it is closer than many think. Particularly when you consider that OH isn't mandatory part 91. I intend to keep doing progressively more expensive HSI's at the required interval and part the plane out when done. At 200 hrs per year that will be around 2043 when I'm 67 and the plane will be 62.

We will probably both be done before the engines are.
 
At relatively high usage a TP makes more financial (and time/comfort) sense.

Acquisition and money costs swing the decision to a piston twin at lower usage. You can get a really nice 421C for $300K. It takes a lot of fuel and engine MX to get to the better part of a million bucks that you need to buy a TP.
 
The problem with a PT6A, is the unknowns.
If a clogged nozzle has burned a hole in the combustion liner...........Break out the $200,000.
 
How much to just replace it with a used engine?
 
paflyer said:
How much to just replace it with a used engine?
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The prices are pretty much per hour left until HSI or overhaul. I do not recall the going rate. Somehow I think it was around $50 per hour, but do not quote me on that.

Tim
 
There is really no maintenance annual to annual on a P46T. Just tires and brakes really, which if you aren't flying 300+ hours per year will also go at least annual to annual. There are only 2 big ticket items on a P46T. The 30K windscreen and the 650K motor. The Motors usually go to TBO without major maintenance. Flying 150 hours/year, you would hit TBO in 24 years on a new engine, so most people don't hold reserves, you are almost definitely going to sell the plane before TBO and the sale price will reflect the depreciated engine. It will the next guy after the next guy after the next guy to TBO it. You can still probably run a well maintained baron, cheaper than a well maintained P46T, but there is absolutely no comparison in the amount of plane you are getting. The P46T is faster, more comfortable, more reliable and handles weather much better. Nothing against the awesome Baron, but just a different league of plane.
 
Rockymountain said:
There is really no maintenance annual to annual on a P46T. Just tires and brakes really, which if you aren't flying 300+ hours per year will also go at least annual to annual. There are only 2 big ticket items on a P46T. The 30K windscreen and the 650K motor. The Motors usually go to TBO without major maintenance. Flying 150 hours/year, you would hit TBO in 24 years on a new engine, so most people don't hold reserves, you are almost definitely going to sell the plane before TBO and the sale price will reflect the depreciated engine. It will the next guy after the next guy after the next guy to TBO it. You can still probably run a well maintained baron, cheaper than a well maintained P46T, but there is absolutely no comparison in the amount of plane you are getting. The P46T is faster, more comfortable, more reliable and handles weather much better. Nothing against the awesome Baron, but just a different league of plane.
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You need a big hangar for a Meridian.
 
James and have similar airplanes, he has the big motors though.:( I have previously owned a 421B and 414A before I bought the 425. I have 4 years of turbine ownership this time around and I can honestly say, while it's not cheaper to operate than the 421, it's not terrible either. Fuel is slightly more per trip, my average trip is Atlanta to Destin FL, sometimes one round trip per week nearly every week in the summer. My fuel burn is of course higher, but the fuel is less per gallon, so I average about $50-75 per round trip more in fuel. The airframe is very similar to the 414/421, so a lot of the maintenance is the same. I have had a few expensive things come up, luckily we found some serviceable used parts for MUCH less than Cessna wanted!! I have about 900-1000 until I will be due for hot sections. That's about 10 years for me at my current usage, I will probably do the hots and keep on flying it. Unless I find a deal on the bigger engines and swap them out, but I am pretty happy with 255 knots true at 65-68 GPH
Plus my co-pilots love it!


James_Dean said:
FWIW, I'm under no illusion that my twin turboprop is cheaper than a cabin class piston, but I do think it is closer than many think. Particularly when you consider that OH isn't mandatory part 91. I intend to keep doing progressively more expensive HSI's at the required interval and part the plane out when done. At 200 hrs per year that will be around 2043 when I'm 67 and the plane will be 62.

We will probably both be done before the engines are.
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N747JB said:
James and have similar airplanes, he has the big motors though.:( I have previously owned a 421B and 414A before I bought the 425. I have 4 years of turbine ownership this time around and I can honestly say, while it's not cheaper to operate than the 421, it's not terrible either. Fuel is slightly more per trip, my average trip is Atlanta to Destin FL, sometimes one round trip per week nearly every week in the summer. My fuel burn is of course higher, but the fuel is less per gallon, so I average about $50-75 per round trip more in fuel. The airframe is very similar to the 414/421, so a lot of the maintenance is the same. I have had a few expensive things come up, luckily we found some serviceable used parts for MUCH less than Cessna wanted!! I have about 900-1000 until I will be due for hot sections. That's about 10 years for me at my current usage, I will probably do the hots and keep on flying it. Unless I find a deal on the bigger engines and swap them out, but I am pretty happy with 255 knots true at 65-68 GPH
Plus my co-pilots love it!

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I've been thinking about a 421, and run into the "it costs about the same to run a TP as it does a big piston twin" argument, so I'm on the fence.

I'd probably fly it a bit less than you, certainly no more than maybe 90 a year.

What do you you think the all-in (not including money and depreciation) costs are annually (per hour costs are meaningless to me- because I don't want to know!) for the 421 and the Conquest?
 
paflyer said:
I've been thinking about a 421, and run into the "it costs about the same to run a TP as it does a big piston twin" argument, so I'm on the fence.

I'd probably fly it a bit less than you, certainly no more than maybe 90 a year.

What do you you think the all-in (not including money and depreciation) costs are annually (per hour costs are meaningless to me- because I don't want to know!) for the 421 and the Conquest?
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I do my best not to add it up but I'll throw some numbers out there.
Insurance on the 421B, $175K hull was around $3500 I believe, it's $7000 now with a $600K hull.
Maintenance is hard to say, the 2,3 and D is every two years and it runs about $20-30K depending on what else is due. The 421 was usually around $9-11K for an annual, again including repairing some things.
Hangar is the same for me, so are the GPS updates.
Someone mentioned before about gotchas, I haven't had many of those with either airplane, but 421's will occasionally ingest a starter adapter and it ruins the engine, I never had any issues, but it's a $60K gotcha if it happens. With turbines, one of the big dangers is hot starts, usually from a weak battery, I haven't had one in 1500+ hours of owning and flying turbine airplanes, but it's a biggie if you toast one!!
I had to guess, the 425 costs me about $8-10K per month on average, fuel and all. The 421 was probably a couple grand less. Of course, I am including the avionics upgrade that I did when I bought! :eek:
 
James_Dean said:
First HSI should be under $15/hr.

I figure oil changes are $8/hr, plugs $4, and mags are $6 for a piston twin that is being well maintained.
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That 15 an hour is only good if there is absolutely nothing wrong inside and you have a local shop split the engine. I have seen it happen that way but at a much lower frequency than the more expensive hots.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
That 15 an hour is only good if there is absolutely nothing wrong inside and you have a local shop split the engine. I have seen it happen that way but at a much lower frequency than the more expensive hots.
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*First* HSI as in TTSN. Second and third run I tend to agree with you. I'm part of a group of six planes with -21s or -135s and the average is in the low $20k.
 
paflyer said:
You need a big hangar for a Meridian.
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The wingspan is quite a bit more, roughly 5 ft. But the Piper is about the same overall length, and ~a foot taller at the tail.
 
N747JB said:
I do my best not to add it up but I'll throw some numbers out there.
Insurance on the 421B, $175K hull was around $3500 I believe, it's $7000 now with a $600K hull.
Maintenance is hard to say, the 2,3 and D is every two years and it runs about $20-30K depending on what else is due. The 421 was usually around $9-11K for an annual, again including repairing some things.
Hangar is the same for me, so are the GPS updates.
Someone mentioned before about gotchas, I haven't had many of those with either airplane, but 421's will occasionally ingest a starter adapter and it ruins the engine, I never had any issues, but it's a $60K gotcha if it happens. With turbines, one of the big dangers is hot starts, usually from a weak battery, I haven't had one in 1500+ hours of owning and flying turbine airplanes, but it's a biggie if you toast one!!
I had to guess, the 425 costs me about $8-10K per month on average, fuel and all. The 421 was probably a couple grand less. Of course, I am including the avionics upgrade that I did when I bought! :eek:
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Ka ching!
 
James_Dean said:
*First* HSI as in TTSN. Second and third run I tend to agree with you. I'm part of a group of six planes with -21s or -135s and the average is in the low $20k.
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The environment I work in is a little tough on the engines. Only about 30-40% of first hots get a normal hot. The rest are more expensive than what you see in normal corporate flying.
 
James_Dean said:
*First* HSI as in TTSN. Second and third run I tend to agree with you. I'm part of a group of six planes with -21s or -135s and the average is in the low $20k.
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My engines will be on second hot sections since overhaul, so it may be a crap shoot for me when the time arrives, but it will be 10 years, assuming I keep the plane. 14 years with one airplane would be a record for me! :D I see myself spending a lot more time at the beach and less time at work by then. If I'm not commuting on weekends I be have the need for this much airplane and if I retire, I won't be able to afford it anyway!! Live for today and enjoy our brief time on earth!!
 
N747JB said:
I do my best not to add it up but I'll throw some numbers out there.
Insurance on the 421B, $175K hull was around $3500 I believe, it's $7000 now with a $600K hull.
Maintenance is hard to say, the 2,3 and D is every two years and it runs about $20-30K depending on what else is due. The 421 was usually around $9-11K for an annual, again including repairing some things.
Hangar is the same for me, so are the GPS updates.
Someone mentioned before about gotchas, I haven't had many of those with either airplane, but 421's will occasionally ingest a starter adapter and it ruins the engine, I never had any issues, but it's a $60K gotcha if it happens. With turbines, one of the big dangers is hot starts, usually from a weak battery, I haven't had one in 1500+ hours of owning and flying turbine airplanes, but it's a biggie if you toast one!!
I had to guess, the 425 costs me about $8-10K per month on average, fuel and all. The 421 was probably a couple grand less. Of course, I am including the avionics upgrade that I did when I bought! :eek:
Click to expand...

Including reserves and based upon 175 hours/yr, I budget $1000/hr and hope for $750. That is doing 280ktas on 75gph.
 
James_Dean said:
Including reserves and based upon 175 hours/yr, I budget $1000/hr and hope for $750. That is doing 280ktas on 75gph.
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Other than that damn 280 knot figure, I think we're pretty close! :D
 
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