Barber Pole Question...Pilatus as an example

wow, I guess this is the definition of thread creep. very interesting stuff posted here, but can anyone answer the original question?
 
Teller1900 said:
You're absolutely right, and that's the joy of Jet-A...all the numbers are much bigger. :thumbsup: There's a reason we measure our gas in thousands of pounds.
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Well, where I burn all my AvGas we measure in pounds per hour as well, and that's what I was saying. Even taking, for example, a TIO-540-J2BD in a Navajo at full rich takeoff power it's still running about 250-300 pph or so. Figure 500-600 pph in the plane, which is still a much, much smaller number than what you're doing in CRUISE. :)

At least someone somewhere likes you. :ihih::goofy:
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It's not easy being green! :D
 
Everskyward said:
Since we are comparing barber pole pictures, here is a (really crappy) one of the panel in the Sovereign that I took today. Vmo in this airplane is 305 KIAS and Mmo is .80 mach. Our fuel flow isn't bad either, about 1600 pph at FL410, for an airplane that is quite a bit bigger than a Lear 35.
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It took me a minute to find your barber pole, but overall I like that setup. It has everything laid out in a logical manner, at least to this pilot who's used to cobbled up panels in tiny piston planes.

I notice that you're only showing about 233 kts on your airspeed next to your attitude indicator, and I see what looks like 404 KTS (or is it 434 or 484?) to the right of your HSI. I'm guessing that bigger number is your TAS or GS and the smaller number is KIAS? I've only ever spent brief time in glass in a few 182s, and not enough to really know even what they mean, much less this.
 
deafsound said:
wow, I guess this is the definition of thread creep. very interesting stuff posted here, but can anyone answer the original question?
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:goofy: This one kinda ran away, didn't it? Best answer I can come up with...the barber pole is there because Vmo, Mmo is the max certified speed we can fly the plane, but unlike Vne, mo is variable with altitude so they have to have some way to present it to the pilot. I don't have any references for that, but that seems to be its basic function.
 
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Ok, my new goal is to get a plane - any airplane - that has a published Mmo restriction. I already have a pilot who will fly it for me, too :D
 
Ted DuPuis said:
It took me a minute to find your barber pole, but overall I like that setup. It has everything laid out in a logical manner, at least to this pilot who's used to cobbled up panels in tiny piston planes.

I notice that you're only showing about 233 kts on your airspeed next to your attitude indicator, and I see what looks like 404 KTS (or is it 434 or 484?) to the right of your HSI. I'm guessing that bigger number is your TAS or GS and the smaller number is KIAS? I've only ever spent brief time in glass in a few 182s, and not enough to really know even what they mean, much less this.
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It looks like she's going 233KIAS at .78 mach and 484kts over the ground with a 63kt quartering tailwind (I think, it could be a quartering headwind, I'd can't really tell which is the head of the arrow). It's going to take 39mins to cover the 302 miles to the TOWSN intersection. They're sipping 780pph on the left and 800 on the right.

We have a similar barber pole in the Q with the red and white "snake" that comes down from the top, and we have the same thing at the bottom to indicate the stall range.
 

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Teller1900 said:
It looks like she's going 233KIAS at .78 mach and 484kts over the ground with a 63kt quartering tailwind (I think, it could be a quartering headwind, I'd can't really tell which is the head of the arrow). It's going to take 39mins to cover the 302 miles to the TOWSN intersection. They're sipping 780pph on the left and 800 on the right.
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I wasn't able to get all of that out of her picture until you pointed it out, but once you did, it was easy to obtain. I also didn't look at her picture very long. :)

We have a similar barber pole in the Q with the red and white "snake" that comes down from the top, and we have the same thing at the bottom to indicate the stall range.
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That's nifty, I'm sure the plane gets very angry at you if you get anywhere close to stall speed range, and the avionics will express their displeasure with your airspeed.
 
Teller1900 said:
It looks like she's going 233KIAS at .78 mach and 484kts over the ground with a 63kt quartering tailwind (I think, it could be a quartering headwind, I'd can't really tell which is the head of the arrow). It's going to take 39mins to cover the 302 miles to the TOWSN intersection. They're sipping 780pph on the left and 800 on the right.
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That's pretty much correct except the name of the intersection is TOMSN which you would've been able to read if I had held the camera steadier. We had a quartering tailwind. Our TAS at that altitude is usually about 440 knots but is displayed on another screen. It took me a little while to get used to the airspeed and altitude displayed on a tape. You need to actually read the number, unlike on a round dial where the position of the needle gives you an initial clue.

Teller1900 said:
Best answer I can come up with...the barber pole is there because Vmo, Mmo is the max certified speed we can fly the plane, but unlike Vne, mo is variable with altitude so they have to have some way to present it to the pilot. I don't have any references for that, but that seems to be its basic function.
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I also agree with this. Since you can't just paint one red line for Vne like they do on smaller airplanes they need to display it either with some kind of variable pointer or rotating dial arrangement.

If you are looking for some references I found 23.1505(c) which says:
(c) Paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section (which refer to Vne) do not apply to turbine airplanes or to airplanes for which a design diving speed V D /M Dis established under §23.335(b)(4). For those airplanes, a maximum operating limit speed ( V MO /M MO-airspeed or Mach number, whichever is critical at a particular altitude) must be established as a speed that may not be deliberately exceeded in any regime of flight (climb, cruise, or descent) unless a higher speed is authorized for flight test or pilot training operations. V MO /M MOmust be established so that it is not greater than the design cruising speed V C /M Cand so that it is sufficiently below V D /M Dand the maximum speed shown under §23.251 to make it highly improbable that the latter speeds will be inadvertently exceeded in operations. The speed margin between V MO /M MOand V D /M Dor the maximum speed shown under §23.251 may not be less than the speed margin established between V C /M Cand V D /M Dunder §23.335(b), or the speed margin found necessary in the flight test conducted under §23.253.
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I'm pretty sure the Pilatus is certified under Part 23.

There's also 23.253 which shows how they determine Vmo/Mmo

If a maximum operating speed VMO/MMO is established under §23.1505(c), the following speed increase and recovery characteristics must be met:
(a) Operating conditions and characteristics likely to cause inadvertent speed increases (including upsets in pitch and roll) must be simulated with the airplane trimmed at any likely speed up to VMO/MMO. These conditions and characteristics include gust upsets, inadvertent control movements, low stick force gradients in relation to control friction, passenger movement, leveling off from climb, and descent from Mach to airspeed limit altitude.
(b) Allowing for pilot reaction time after occurrence of the effective inherent or artificial speed warning specified in §23.1303, it must be shown that the airplane can be recovered to a normal attitude and its speed reduced to VMO/MMO, without—
(1) Exceeding VD/MD, the maximum speed shown under §23.251, or the structural limitations; or
(2) Buffeting that would impair the pilot's ability to read the instruments or to control the airplane for recovery.
(c) There may be no control reversal about any axis at any speed up to the maximum speed shown under §23.251. Any reversal of elevator control force or tendency of the airplane to pitch, roll, or yaw must be mild and readily controllable, using normal piloting techniques.
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Ted DuPuis said:
That's nifty, I'm sure the plane gets very angry at you if you get anywhere close to stall speed range, and the avionics will express their displeasure with your airspeed.
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Oh it gets very angry. The entire tape turns red if we get within 3kts of overspeed, and the oral warning if we actually bust the speed is really obnoxious. The red doesn't go away until you get 5kts below the warning speed. God forbid you take it near the low speed cue, we have a stick shaker and a pusher...not that you'll probably ever get to the pusher, because the shaker could wake the dead (and cause some real damage if you're sitting too close)! :eek:

The barber pole is kind of obnoxious because it changes A LOT as we descend. The plane is limited to 245kts <8k, but it jumps up to 265 from 8-10 (not that we can be faster than 250, but whatever), and 278 from 10-15k, so that snake comes for you in a hurry if they give us a quick descent. Silly Canadian engineers. :crazy:.
 
Everskyward said:
That's pretty much correct except the name of the intersection is TOMSN which you would've been able to read if I had held the camera steadier. We had a quartering tailwind. Our TAS at that altitude is usually about 440 knots but is displayed on another screen. It took me a little while to get used to the airspeed and altitude displayed on a tape. You need to actually read the number, unlike on a round dial where the position of the needle gives you an initial clue.
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I really like that display system you have. Everything seems a lot more logical and less cluttered than ours. I'm still getting used to the tape. It doesn't bother me so much for the airspeed, but the altitude...not having the needle postion to tell me if I'm off and by how much is messing with my head :sosp:.



Everskyward said:
If you are looking for some references I found 23.1505(c) which says:
I'm pretty sure the Pilatus is certified under Part 23.

There's also 23.253 which shows how they determine Vmo/Mmo
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Thanks for finding the real answer, that's actually quite an interesting read!
 
Teller1900 said:
I really like that display system you have. Everything seems a lot more logical and less cluttered than ours. I'm still getting used to the tape. It doesn't bother me so much for the airspeed, but the altitude...not having the needle postion to tell me if I'm off and by how much is messing with my head :sosp:.
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You'll adapt by learning to associate the bug position on the PFD with the error. Bug too high? you're too low.

Learning that the bugs should sit right in the middle (vertically) and getting that as part of my scan has worked well, both for the G1000 and the other EFIS/PFD airplanes I've flown.

What's really weird is going back and forth between round dials and PFD, but even that isn't something that I conciously notice anymore.

So just give yourself some time, and your brain will figure it out.
 
jmaynard said:
"Slow down, you &^***$%^&$#%^&*(#$%^&$%^!!! idiot!"
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Pretty much! :rofl: That also happens to be what the chief pilot says to us when we chat with him the day after hearing the airplane make its noise! I'm just glad the airplane hasn't started to call me a "retard" like the Airbuses do.
 
Everskyward said:
It took me a little while to get used to the airspeed and altitude displayed on a tape. You need to actually read the number, unlike on a round dial where the position of the needle gives you an initial clue.
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Yeah, although I like digital gauges on my cars, I actually prefer a digital/analog combination for my airplane or for things like a tachometer, where I'm likely to need to look at them quickly and want to have a decent indication of where I am. I suppose once you get used to it, though, anything works.
 
jmaynard said:
"Slow down, you &^***$%^&$#%^&*(#$%^&$%^!!! idiot!"
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I would love it if the Garmin would say that to you. The G1000s with TCAS will say in a very polite, calm voice "Traffic". I like your version better, Jay. :)
 
TMetzinger said:
Do the Q's say: "OOOH! I'm telling DAAAAD you flew too fast!"
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Haha. It's not even nice enough to warn us when it's going to tattle. It just logs everything it doesn't like in its little computer calls mother back in the Kremlin (dispatch) if it really doesn't like us.

I like that bug trick, for the most part I've been ignorning the bug except to make sure that they autopilot is going to obey it; I guess I'll have to re-include it in my scan.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I would love it if the Garmin would say that to you. The G1000s with TCAS will say in a very polite, calm voice "Traffic". I like your version better, Jay. :)
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The G1000 supports TCAS? What plane where you flying??

I really like the GPWS voices that Garmin has. They really do get annoyed at you if you don't obey them.

"Terrain."
...
"Terrain, pull up."
...
"Terrain, terrain, pull up!!!."

Really scares the passengers :D
 
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Shouldn't the overspeed warning be more like "Hey hoser aren't you going a little fast there, eh?". I mean the Q is Canadian....
 
The G1000 does not use TCAS but rather, Traffic Information Service (TIS). It's not immediate as is TCAS so there is a lag time completely dependent upon radar service. It's available only in areas where radar can provide the service.

You can have Traffic Advisory System with the Honeywell 870 installed but I've not seen such a system. It does do individual transponder interrogation similar to TCAS but I'm not familiar with the details of how it works.

The 530 will have TIS if also equipped with the Garmin 330 transponder.
 
Teller1900 said:
Oh it gets very angry. The entire tape turns red if we get within 3kts of overspeed, and the oral warning if we actually bust the speed is really obnoxious. The red doesn't go away until you get 5kts below the warning speed. God forbid you take it near the low speed cue, we have a stick shaker and a pusher...not that you'll probably ever get to the pusher, because the shaker could wake the dead (and cause some real damage if you're sitting too close)! :eek:
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This now poses a question for me. Are the warnings there simply because of the fact that more people die if something breaks (nevermind that you don't want to perform a stall with passengers on board), or is it because the characteristics of the stall really are that bad? I'd figure you'd have to practice them in the sim at least. I remember Mari saying the test pilot did a stall in the Citation when she picked it up.

The barber pole is kind of obnoxious because it changes A LOT as we descend. The plane is limited to 245kts <8k, but it jumps up to 265 from 8-10 (not that we can be faster than 250, but whatever), and 278 from 10-15k, so that snake comes for you in a hurry if they give us a quick descent. Silly Canadian engineers. :crazy:.
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I can see that being annoying. Sometime you have to convince the crew to let me sit in the jump seat or something so I can see all this for myself. :)
 
sba55 said:
The G1000 supports TCAS? What plane where you flying??
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I was in a T182, can't remember what year it was. It was new enough that it had a G1000 installed. :)

I probably have my acronym wrong. Here's what I remember: We were flying along, the G1000 said "Traffic" and a dot appeared on the attitude indicator. We looked, sure enough, there was the traffic.

It was neat. I want one. :)
 
Ted DuPuis said:
This now poses a question for me. Are the warnings there simply because of the fact that more people die if something breaks (nevermind that you don't want to perform a stall with passengers on board), or is it because the characteristics of the stall really are that bad? I'd figure you'd have to practice them in the sim at least. I remember Mari saying the test pilot did a stall in the Citation when she picked it up.
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We do have to practice them in the sim, in fact it's a checkride item (clean, t/o config w/ a 20* bank, and landing config), though we only have to take it to first indication. In the Beech that was the horn at roughly 5kts above the stall. In the Q it's at the shaker, which is 10kts above calculated stall speed (good luck finding the stall vane on a Q). In training, though, they let us take it to the full stall. In the Beech, it was pretty much a non-event as long as the engines were at idle and produced symetric thrust on the recovery. The Q broke pretty hard, but again the recovery was no biggie, so long as you didn't lose an engine at really low speed.

I think that's probably why we have so many warning systems, with the excess power that these planes have and the long arm of the engines out on the wings, getting slow and then losing an engine could be deadly quickly (go-around with engine fail, negative autofeather is the hardest of the checkride events), so they want to make sure we're always in a realm where we have enough rudder authority to stay up right.

In Mari's case, the sweep wing design could be extremely unforgiving in the event of a stall, so that's why they have the added protection.



I can see that being annoying. Sometime you have to convince the crew to let me sit in the jump seat or something so I can see all this for myself. :)
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If you can make the TSA f-off, I'd be happy to take everyone for a ride up in the pointy end. But alas...:mad2:
 
KennyFlys said:
The G1000 does not use TCAS but rather, Traffic Information Service (TIS). It's not immediate as is TCAS so there is a lag time completely dependent upon radar service. It's available only in areas where radar can provide the service.

You can have Traffic Advisory System with the Honeywell 870 installed but I've not seen such a system. It does do individual transponder interrogation similar to TCAS but I'm not familiar with the details of how it works.

The 530 will have TIS if also equipped with the Garmin 330 transponder.
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The G1000 system supports TCAS - they have to for the Mustang, Caravan, TBM850, and other airframes. I'm pretty sure that you could (if you wanted to spend the $$$) install true TCAS onto a 182 if you wanted to, but for most of us the TIS datalink is sufficient, and if they rework the ADS-B proposal into something that works, we'll eventually have that.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
I'll try to remember the carrier but can't right now. It sounded most like the overspeed horn that you describe above. It started when they leveled off and I could just feel the plane was really booking, as the 1900 certainly can. It was then absolutly continuous (and this was in the cabin!) until slowing down for the landing.

It's had to imagine they would have voluntarily flown with that noise for 20 minutes, even if premeditated.
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No, especially not considering all the orals can be silenced with one breaker (B-3) next to the FO's right knee. Of course, if they somehow legitimately didn't know what the overspeed warning was, maybe they don't know about the breaker either :hairraise:. Why you would tell a pax that, though, is beyond me! I'm a little curious, too, what you were hearing.
 
Why is the Captains' Altimeter set to 2992 but the F/O is 2984? And if these pics werent taken at the same time.... why is the F/O Altimeter NOT set to 2992?

and i couldnt find the fuel flow either :(
 
ntbjounin said:
Why is the Captains' Altimeter set to 2992 but the F/O is 2984? And if these pics werent taken at the same time.... why is the F/O Altimeter NOT set to 2992?

and i couldnt find the fuel flow either :(
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My guess is, since the CA's and stdby altimeters were both at 92, they FO's side was set to show FL270. The altitudes look perfectly matched on both meters despite the different Kolsman settings, so that'd be my guess.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
This now poses a question for me. Are the warnings there simply because of the fact that more people die if something breaks (nevermind that you don't want to perform a stall with passengers on board), or is it because the characteristics of the stall really are that bad? I'd figure you'd have to practice them in the sim at least. I remember Mari saying the test pilot did a stall in the Citation when she picked it up.
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Some of these high performance airplanes are more forgiving than others but none of them are like your average trainer. On the conformity flight I did a stall to the shaker which felt a lot like what I had experienced in the sim. The test pilot did a stall to the break and and it broke pretty abruptly right wing down and it took a few seconds to recover. The Sovereign does not have a pusher like the Lear and the Hawker so I imagine its stall characteristics are more docile and it did not need a pusher for certification. When we need to do an after-maintenance stall test in the Lear they fly a test pilot in to do it. Guys who have gone with them say it is an interesting experience. There are also limitations to doing intentional stalls in jets regarding maximum altitudes and configuration.
 
TMetzinger said:
The G1000 system supports TCAS - they have to for the Mustang, Caravan, TBM850, and other airframes. I'm pretty sure that you could (if you wanted to spend the $$$) install true TCAS onto a 182 if you wanted to, but for most of us the TIS datalink is sufficient, and if they rework the ADS-B proposal into something that works, we'll eventually have that.
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Sometime later, I was thinking back on my post and wondering later about the Mustang and the Caravan. I figured the Mustang must at least have some capability given its role. I hadn't dug into it but now I'm more curious.
 
Everskyward said:
[...]The test pilot did a stall to the break and and it broke pretty abruptly right wing down and it took a few seconds to recover.[...]
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That sounds like what I experienced (in a much smaller BE35) a few weeks ago. I hadn't done power on stalls, so I decided to try it. Since I was by myself, the plane was really light and I felt like it was standing on it's tail by the time it stalled. Very abrupt, and the left wing drops no matter what you do. It was quite interesting.....
 
Gulfstream-IV had the big numbers on the bottom of the airspeed tape, their theory (or so they said later) being that the big numbers were where the nose had to go to attain them. For whatever reason, they decided that wasn't the way it should be and turned the tape on the G-V so the big numbers were on the top.

When I taught the sim, it was fun watching the IV crews making the transition. "nose up, no, nose down, no, up dammit, no down, WTF did they have to change the *#^(ing tape anyway, it never made any sense but we got used to it . . . ."

Ted DuPuis said:
Yeah, although I like digital gauges on my cars, I actually prefer a digital/analog combination for my airplane or for things like a tachometer, where I'm likely to need to look at them quickly and want to have a decent indication of where I am. I suppose once you get used to it, though, anything works.
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wabower said:
Gulfstream-IV had the big numbers on the bottom of the airspeed tape, their theory (or so they said later) being that the big numbers were where the nose had to go to attain them. For whatever reason, they decided that wasn't the way it should be and turned the tape on the G-V so the big numbers were on the top.

When I taught the sim, it was fun watching the IV crews making the transition. "nose up, no, nose down, no, up dammit, no down, WTF did they have to change the *#^(ing tape anyway, it never made any sense but we got used to it . . . ."
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Frankly, I think they had it right with the G-IV. It makes MUCH more sense when you actually go to fly it, especially with various speeds (such as Vy, etc.) marked on the tapes. When the tag goes up, if you chase it by pulling the nose up, it'll go up faster.

I'll never know why they changed that around for every other glass panel ever built...
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I was in a T182, can't remember what year it was. It was new enough that it had a G1000 installed. :)

I probably have my acronym wrong. Here's what I remember: We were flying along, the G1000 said "Traffic" and a dot appeared on the attitude indicator. We looked, sure enough, there was the traffic.

It was neat. I want one. :)
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I bought a Garmin 496 back in February. Then I replaced my mode C transponder with a GTX330. The TIS output goes to the 496, but a 430 or 530 can read this too.
After 10 hours with TIS, I'm both wondering how I did without it, and realizing the sky isn't BIG ENOUGH!
It's even better when you get the "TRAFFIC" alert and there's no 496 to view where.
Oh... anyone want a used mode C for a good price?
 
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