Bad IR training day

[br6ppc]

Well, after 6 flights, I finally had a bad, bad flight. My day was already lousy. I showed up after work at the base aero club with more fuel on me than the Warrior could hold ( I work on C-130's at Robins AFB ). I live over an hour away, so going home to change was out of the question. I asked my CFII if he wanted to go or cancel. He said we would go. I told him don't complain about the fuel odor, then . We had a new lady in the tower and I had to laugh and feel sorry for the poor lady. She was having trouble getting the departure instructions out. Then they brought in a C-5 Galaxy that had to turn on the taxiway that I was holding on. Needless to say, I was definitely giving way to the C-5. I did make a nice instrument takeoff. After takeoff, the Atlanta dep. controller was also having a bad day. It took her 3 attempts to just acknowledge that she had me in radar contact. The sky was clear and full of bumps. We bumped our way over to the practice area and enroute I found that the turn coordinator was a lying sack of #%*. I had to cover it to keep from getting the leans. In level flight, it was showing a right bank. I would look at the AI and then scan to the TC and when they didn't agree, I would try to believe the TC. But the DG didn't show a turn, so I knew the TC was wrong. We proceeded on and I finally got to do some steep turns. I NEED PRACTICE!!!! Man I thought they were hard during my PP training. They're a just loads of fun under the hood (yeah right). After my 6th attempt, I finally made one to PTS standards. I still need mucho practice for those. I just did have my head screwed on straight today. Too many things not working out and mainly I was fixating instead of scanning. I was also behind the A/C constantly. I was very happy that this wasn't a for real IMC flight Hey, let's get it out of my system cause I knew I was due for one of these days. We then tried to calibrate the TC. Right std turn for 90 deg. took 50 sec. It was waaay off. The AI was showing about 8deg. of bank at 95 kts. in the turn. After that little fiasco, we called it a day and headed back to base. Upon arrival, we had to wait for 2 E-8 JSTARS to get out of the way before we could land. I did end the flight well, though. I made a nice no-flap squeeker landing, so I guess all's well that ends well. My PPL instructor always told me that bad days were usually followed by a good flight. We shall see. Ben there's your report .

Stan

 

[Steve]

Sounds like a most excellent training experience, imho.

 

[spiderweb]

It happens. It takes awhile to get your head around flying instruments, but when it clicks, you'll love it.

One question, why were you practicing steep turns?

We proceeded on and I finally got to do some steep turns. I NEED PRACTICE!!!! Man I thought they were hard during my PP training. They're a just loads of fun under the hood (yeah right). After my 6th attempt, I finally made one to PTS standards. I still need mucho practice for those.

Stan

 

[br6ppc]

Sounds like a most excellent training experience, imho.

That it was. Better to have those days with a CFII along in IMC. I learned one important rule today. Know when to admit I'm not up to flying. If I would have been just flying VFR, it would have been a great day. Beautiful weather, not a cloud in sight and not much haze. But all through the flight, I kept trying to imagine having this kind of flight single pilot IMC. It would have been a really bad day. IFR is a very different cat from VFR. I guess learning that made the whole flight worthwhile.

 

[br6ppc]

It happens. It takes awhile to get your head around flying instruments, but when it clicks, you'll love it.
I've had some flights where everthing just clicked and yeah, that's a great flight.

One question, why were you practicing steep turns?

It's in our 141 syllabus, but now that you mention it, I can't find anything in the PTS for steep turns. Are they no longer required?

 

[Richard]

It's in our 141 syllabus, but now that you mention it, I can't find anything in the PTS for steep turns. Are they no longer required?

That was my question too. Do you mean timed turns or possibly std rate turns to a specific heading? Were you under the hood during these turns?

 

[br6ppc]

That was my question too. Do you mean timed turns or possibly std rate turns to a specific heading? Were you under the hood during these turns?

Nope, these were full 360deg., 45deg bank turns. Just like the steep turns in my PPL. Yes, they were done under the hood. Heck, the only time I wasn't under the hood today was when we had to circle for traffic back at the base and then the landing. The aero club has areas assigned by the Tower to do 360 circling holds to wait for our turn in the line of military aircraft. We have lots of experience in wake turbulence avoidance.

 

[kath]

I remember steep turns under the hood for the IR. My CFII explained that their purpose was an exercise in precise airplane-handling while hooded... not part of any IR procedure that you would use for any reason. Did I have to do them on my checkride? Now that I think about it, I don't remember.

--Kath

 

[spiderweb]

It's in our 141 syllabus, but now that you mention it, I can't find anything in the PTS for steep turns. Are they no longer required?

Time to update the syllabus. Steep turns aren't required. You'd better clarify that with your DPE, too.

 

[spiderweb]

I remember steep turns under the hood for the IR. My CFII explained that their purpose was an exercise in precise airplane-handling while hooded... not part of any IR procedure that you would use for any reason. Did I have to do them on my checkride? Now that I think about it, I don't remember.

--Kath

The new PTS doesn't require them.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

I remember steep turns under the hood for the IR. My CFII explained that their purpose was an exercise in precise airplane-handling while hooded... not part of any IR procedure that you would use for any reason. Did I have to do them on my checkride? Now that I think about it, I don't remember.

--Kath

For personal practice and for the Wings hood-hour I wouldn't think of not including a few 60 degree bank 720s R&L. Lesser banks then seem even more easy.

 

[Henning]

Time to update the syllabus. Steep turns aren't required. You'd better clarify that with your DPE, too.

While the DPE's may be restricted by the PTS, the instructor is not so restricted. There is nothing that says the syllabus must ONLY teach the PTS, just that they must teach it. Above and Beyond is permissable. I know I did steeps with my II when I was training, and I've had to do them on every 135 check flight I've ever done. Nothing wrong with training above minimum requirements.

 

[spiderweb]

While the DPE's may be restricted by the PTS, the instructor is not so restricted. There is nothing that says the syllabus must ONLY teach the PTS, just that they must teach it. Above and Beyond is permissable. I know I did steeps with my II when I was training, and I've had to do them on every 135 check flight I've ever done. Nothing wrong with training above minimum requirements.

Absoulutely. But knowing that he need not be tested on steep turns relieves one more item causing stress. For IR training, I felt the unusual attitude recoveries under partial panel were more beneficial (and more fun)!

 

[Richard]

I reread Stan's post keeping mind all the comments, especially Henning's. It seems the instructor saw an opportunity to strike. Stan did say it was a bad day meaning he may not have been mentally in the game.

My question is, is this a good thing since it was Stan's 6th lesson? The aim is proficiency when the chips are down but when does it become too much to swallow? Was the lesson objective achieved?

 

[Bill]

Time to update the syllabus. Steep turns aren't required. You'd better clarify that with your DPE, too.

Although not required, my guy had me practice 45 degree 360's under the hood several times. He said if I ever get inattentive and get into a graveyard spiral, I better be able to handle and get out of steep banked turns.

And Ben, yes, those partial panel unusuals were quite fun!

 

[poadeleted20]

While the specific steep turn maneuver is not in the PTS any more (the individual "basic instrument flight maneuvers" were combined into one task and are covered during routine ops), there is no PTS limit on bank angles for the test and the need to be able to do a steep turn under the hood has not disappeared. That task references the Instrument Flying Handbook (FAA-H-8083-15), which does include steep turns in the basic flight maneuvers section (Chapter 5). If the examiner is clever, he can introduce the need for a steep turn under the hood (e.g., "Cessna 123 turn left immediately best rate heading 120 pop-up traffic 12 o'clock less than a mile") without it being a separately defined task. Any instrument flight instructor who does not teach them is failing in his responsibilities.

 

[anonn]

Any instrument flight instructor who does not teach them is failing in his responsibilities.

Best point posted today. There is also a parallel statement needed for pilots unable to perform the maneuver.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Time to update the syllabus. Steep turns aren't required.

ARGH!

That bums me out. I kinda knew it but I'd kinda forgotten. On my last IR training flight on Sunday, I flew the best steep turns of my life. I was beginning to wonder if the altimeter was broken, until I ballooned about 30 feet on the rollout. +30-0 feet, 45+-2 degrees, rollout w/in about 4 degrees on both of them. Man, that felt good.

 

[spiderweb]

They are important, but not required. My instructor taught a whole hellofa lot more than what was required.

 

[Henning]

I reread Stan's post keeping mind all the comments, especially Henning's. It seems the instructor saw an opportunity to strike. Stan did say it was a bad day meaning he may not have been mentally in the game.

My question is, is this a good thing since it was Stan's 6th lesson? The aim is proficiency when the chips are down but when does it become too much to swallow? Was the lesson objective achieved?

Seriously, IMHO it's only too much to swallow when you end up in a box, part of the instructors art is to know when that is just about to happen and save it, otherwise it's good. I think it's important that someone comes in under their game and gives it a try. If the only thing learned from this flight was "I shouldn't do this if I don't feel right", then I firmly believe that an important and critical lesson was achieved, even if it wasn't the one in the days lesson plan.

 

[Richard]

/SNIP/
If the only thing learned from this flight was "I shouldn't do this if I don't feel right", then I firmly believe that an important and critical lesson was achieved, even if it wasn't the one in the days lesson plan.

Absolutely agree. I haven't yet walked away from after a flight bummed 'cause I didn't learn something. Sometimes it wasn't the intended lesson but it was just as important. Included in that would be learning why not to fly with a person, which could include me in certain mental states.

But all that should be kept outside the basic training environment, no? If not, then the student gets discouraged because of lack of progression in the syllabus.

 

[br6ppc]

Yes, this was a day when my head was definitely not in the game. About the steep turns at this point, my CFII had discussed my performance so far with the Chief flight inst. We have pretty much covered everything in the syllabus up to lesson 10 and the manuevers have been within PTS limits and the CFII's satisfaction. So the Chief told my CFII to move up to steep turns. The first one I tried, I didn't use near enough back pressure on the yoke. The nose dropped and the first sign I had was an increase in engine noise. The instruments were a perfect textbook example of entering a spiral dive. Instantly I reacted; throttle back, wings level, and ease the nose up. The airspeed never hardly reached Vno, but it was headed up enough to make me pull out and start the manuever again. After a few more tries, I finally pegged one. I may not have learned everything we intended but, I feel that I learned few things that may come in handy one day. If I can learn something on a training flight, then I think it was a successful flight.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Yes, this was a day when my head was definitely not in the game. About the steep turns at this point, my CFII had discussed my performance so far with the Chief flight inst. We have pretty much covered everything in the syllabus up to lesson 10 and the manuevers have been within PTS limits and the CFII's satisfaction. So the Chief told my CFII to move up to steep turns. The first one I tried, I didn't use near enough back pressure on the yoke. The nose dropped and the first sign I had was an increase in engine noise. The instruments were a perfect textbook example of entering a spiral dive. Instantly I reacted; throttle back, wings level, and ease the nose up. The airspeed never hardly reached Vno, but it was headed up enough to make me pull out and start the manuever again. After a few more tries, I finally pegged one. I may not have learned everything we intended but, I feel that I learned few things that may come in handy one day. If I can learn something on a training flight, then I think it was a successful flight.

You'll probably very soon get to the point where you trim so acurately for nose up in the steep turns that yoke inputs are virtually effortless.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

...If the examiner is clever, he can introduce the need for a steep turn under the hood (e.g., "Cessna 123 turn left immediately best rate heading 120 pop-up traffic 12 o'clock less than a mile") without it being a separately defined task. Any instrument flight instructor who does not teach them is failing in his responsibilities.

So, Ron, tell us, would you please, what's the angular criteria in the above senario? The tolerance? Where are either specified? IOW, if this questioning is too subtle for you, in the above scenario the DE could find no reason to fail the candidate if the candidate rolled immediately into a standard rate turn.

The steep turn is gone from the instrument PTS, and no manner of creative liberty on your part will bring it back.

 

[Henning]

Yes, this was a day when my head was definitely not in the game. About the steep turns at this point, my CFII had discussed my performance so far with the Chief flight inst. We have pretty much covered everything in the syllabus up to lesson 10 and the manuevers have been within PTS limits and the CFII's satisfaction. So the Chief told my CFII to move up to steep turns. The first one I tried, I didn't use near enough back pressure on the yoke. The nose dropped and the first sign I had was an increase in engine noise. The instruments were a perfect textbook example of entering a spiral dive. Instantly I reacted; throttle back, wings level, and ease the nose up. The airspeed never hardly reached Vno, but it was headed up enough to make me pull out and start the manuever again. After a few more tries, I finally pegged one. I may not have learned everything we intended but, I feel that I learned few things that may come in handy one day. If I can learn something on a training flight, then I think it was a successful flight.

Here's where you learn the airplane. If you are holding enough back pressure that you are starting to feel it in your pecs, you are in a bad state. There are two ways to relieve this, trim and power. Ordinarily, it takes a combination of both to make it slick, and a bit of practice getting the inputs co-ordinated. Start by adding, let's start with 10% more power (if available of course) as you roll in. Roll smartly into the turn, as soon as your hand leaves the throttle, it should be on the trim, just keep on easing the trim in as the speed slows and stabilizes, you should be pulling with your fingers, maybe the wrist, but with an open hand fingers extended, any more pressure than that, and you need to trim some more. As you roll out, trim back a double flick (about 1/2 of what you ended up rolling in), throttle back, then return to trim and trim as required by increase in speed. The Jetstream taught me that your hand lives on the trim wheel. After a couple times through it and you learn how much trim you'll need to flick and how much you need to move the throttles (another good thing is to learn the note of your engine at critical power settings so you don't have to look at the engine instruments except for minor trimming issues.

 

[jdwatson]

Glad you got it out of your system while training. I had a day like that during my checkride prep. Not exactly confidence inspiring. It took a few extra hours to convince myself that the day wasn't nearly as bad as it felt.