Bad GA. Bad. Shame on you.

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Light and Sporty Guy
Or: Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Wandering through youtube, I find this: http://youtu.be/gPW3uyYWo5g?t=47s

"70% of these incidents [runway incursions] are attributed to GA aircraft"


Bad GA. Bad GA pilots. Shame on you. 70% of runway incursions are due to those bad, poorly trained GA pilots.

Then, I got to wondering. What percentage of operations at towered airports can be blamed on GA aircraft?

Anyone got a good national statistic? I don't, so I just looked at the towered airports in the Motor City area: DTW, YIP, ARB, PTK, DET. Further, I assume that air taxi falls under GA and military does not. Adding up all the operation numbers from SkyVector, I find that GA operations account for 73% of the total.

oops.

So much for GA pilots being so much worse than real airline pilots (at least in terms of runway incursions). If the Detroit numbers are anywhere near close to the national numbers, the good airline pilots eff up just as much as the bad GA pilots who are responsible for the 70%...

I would also note that 100% of the runway incursions happen under ATC control - making it statistically clear where the real problem lies.
 
I will add that the term GA, is so broad that it encompasses so many different types of aircraft, and types of operations that it would be impossible to see what percentage of incursions were caused by the weekend warrior Cessna, or the G550.
 
John221us said:
That seems unlikely. Where did you find that statistic?
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It's the way the statistics are collected.

A "runway incursion" occurs when you cross the line (or fail to clear the line) without permission from ATC at a towered airport. With no ATC to give or not give clearance, there is no "runway incursion" if you cross the line at an uncontrolled airport - even when you shouldn't. (recall that there is also no rule against multiple aircraft being on the runway side of the line at the same time.)

So, at a towered airport - stop 1 foot late and it's an incursion listed in the data base. At an uncontrolled airport - no harm, no foul.

The FAA data base on these is on line somewhere - you can check yourself.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
It's the way the statistics are collected.

A "runway incursion" occurs when you cross the line (or fail to clear the line) without permission from ATC at a towered airport. With no ATC to give or not give clearance, there is no "runway incursion" if you cross the line at an uncontrolled airport - even when you shouldn't. (recall that there is also no rule against multiple aircraft being on the runway side of the line at the same time.)

So, at a towered airport - stop 1 foot late and it's an incursion listed in the data base. At an uncontrolled airport - no harm, no foul.

The FAA data base on these is on line somewhere - you can check yourself.
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JOOC, is it an incursion if you fail to cross completely past the hold short line before stopping when taxiing off the runway? At my airport they moved the HS lines away from the runway to comply with some sort of FAA requirement and now it's not possible to clear the line without blocking the intersecting taxiway. ATC has made it clear that they want us to cross completely past the line before stopping but I haven't of heard anyone getting called if they fail to do so.
 
gismo said:
JOOC, is it an incursion if you fail to cross completely past the hold short line before stopping when taxiing off the runway? At my airport they moved the HS lines away from the runway to comply with some sort of FAA requirement and now it's not possible to clear the line without blocking the intersecting taxiway. ATC has made it clear that they want us to cross completely past the line before stopping but I haven't of heard anyone getting called if they fail to do so.
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The hold short lines have been that way at most of the exit taxiways at PTK for years (at least 11). I was taught that ATC wants you to straddle the HS line so you're as much over it as you can get without blocking the intersecting taxiway. I can't believe they would call it an incursion if you did that, in fact I think it's likelier you would get a stern talking to if you blocked the taxiway. In any case I've done as I was taught there ever since, and never had any complaints from either Tower or Ground.
 
azure said:
The hold short lines have been that way at most of the exit taxiways at PTK for years (at least 11). I was taught that ATC wants you to straddle the HS line so you're as much over it as you can get without blocking the intersecting taxiway. I can't believe they would call it an incursion if you did that, in fact I think it's likelier you would get a stern talking to if you blocked the taxiway. In any case I've done as I was taught there ever since, and never had any complaints from either Tower or Ground.
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Then their policy goes against FAA standards and complying with it could definitely get someone in hot water at some airports. Technically there's no conflict/deviation as long as no one's using the runway while you're still inside the HS lines but the reason they are where they are relate to having a proscribed amount of separation between aircraft on taxiways and those arriving or departing from runways.

Personally I like PTKs attitude better but I doubt that the upper management at the FAA would agree.
 
gismo said:
JOOC, is it an incursion if you fail to cross completely past the hold short line before stopping when taxiing off the runway?
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No, you have cleared the runway once your aircraft has completely passed beyond the white boundary lines of the runway.
 
ebykowsky said:
There can't be an incursion if there's no tower.
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Nonsense. A runway incursion is defined as "any occurrence at an aerodrome involving the incorrect presence of an aircraft, vehicle, or person on the protected area of a surface designated for the landing and takeoff of aircraft." An incursion does not require a control tower.
 
ebykowsky said:
OK realized that sounds stupid.
FTFM

Can't record an incursion if there's no tower.
(Unless there's an accident)
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And there are accidents without towers, such as the United Express 1900 and King Air at Quincy Regional in 1996, so the assertion that "100% of the runway incursions happen under ATC control" is a load of crap.
 
Fearless Tower said:
No, you have cleared the runway once your aircraft has completely passed beyond the white boundary lines of the runway.
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You're considered clear of the runway when your aircraft has passed the white stripe as long as your further movement beyond the hold short lines is not restricted.
 
roncachamp said:
Nonsense. A runway incursion is defined as "any occurrence at an aerodrome involving the incorrect presence of an aircraft, vehicle, or person on the protected area of a surface designated for the landing and takeoff of aircraft." An incursion does not require a control tower.
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Considering no clearance is required at a nontowered airport (or a towered airport when the tower is closed), what makes any aircraft's presence past the hold short line (if one exists) "incorrect?" 14 CFR 91.126 is silent on this. The closest you get is 14 CFR 91.111(a), but that's not about runway incursions.
 
MAKG1 said:
Considering no clearance is required at a nontowered airport (or a towered airport when the tower is closed), what makes any aircraft's presence past the hold short line (if one exists) "incorrect?"
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The presence of another aircraft that is about to touch down or is on takeoff roll.

The closest you get is 14 CFR 91.111(a), but that's not about runway incursions.
Click to expand...

Runway incursions present a collision hazard.
 
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