Bad Experience in a 172.

WBBulldogs

WBBulldogs

Filing Flight Plan
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So I want to start pilot training in a few months when I get back to Colorado. This has been my plan for the past year almost. One of my co workers heard me talking about this and long story short, he has a PPL and wanted to take me up since I've never even been in anything as small as a 172. I've ridden in plenty of helicopters and airliners while in the Navy though.

So we go up pretty smooth ride until we get into this airspace they use for students. He shows me these falls and then decides to circle around them. He banks at least 60 degrees or more (maybe 65+) from what I was looking at the Attitude Indicator for about 5-10 seconds. I heard stall horns so it started freaking me out. Then he asks if I've ever been weightless. I really was still kinda shocked by the first maneuver so I was silent then he made us go weightless. The final thing that he did was an "emergency descent" this bank angle was a little better than that first 60 degree but still rough and I felt the G's.

This experience left a sour taste in my mouth. I don't know if these maneuvers are common with piloting or while being a student but I've never heard of people being so rough while flying. It almost makes me want to reconsider learning. It doesn't really bother me that we did the maneuvers but I had no briefing saying that's what we were gonna do. I don't know much about 172's and if they can handle that kind of flying. I believe if I knew more about what is too hard on that plane or if a good instructor was by my side I would have no worries.

I should have known better than to go with this coworker as he's unpredictable and is almost a showoff at work. This just kinda rattled me and I was wondering if I am over reacting or if this is normal?
 
WBBulldogs said:
So I want to start pilot training in a few months when I get back to Colorado. This has been my plan for the past year almost. One of my co workers heard me talking about this and long story short, he has a PPL and wanted to take me up since I've never even been in anything as small as a 172. I've ridden in plenty of helicopters and airliners while in the Navy though.

So we go up pretty smooth ride until we get into this airspace they use for students. He shows me these falls and then decides to circle around them. He banks at least 60 degrees or more (maybe 65+) from what I was looking at the Attitude Indicator for about 5-10 seconds. I heard stall horns so it started freaking me out. Then he asks if I've ever been weightless. I really was still kinda shocked by the first maneuver so I was silent then he made us go weightless. The final thing that he did was an "emergency descent" this bank angle was a little better than that first 60 degree but still rough and I felt the G's.

This experience left a sour taste in my mouth. I don't know if these maneuvers are common with piloting or while being a student but I've never heard of people being so rough while flying. It almost makes me want to reconsider learning. It doesn't really bother me that we did the maneuvers but I had no briefing saying that's what we were gonna do. I don't know much about 172's and if they can handle that kind of flying. I believe if I knew more about what is too hard on that plane or if a good instructor was by my side I would have no worries.

I should have known better than to go with this coworker as he's unpredictable and is almost a showoff at work. This just kinda rattled me and I was wondering if I am over reacting or if this is normal?
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Your friend is an idiot and was trying to show off and scare you. There is no place for that in flight training.

It's likely some of what was done may be normal training maneuvers but when they are introduced by a good instructor you'll feel much better about it. I do not do stalls with students until we've talked about it at length on the ground and they know what exactly to expect.

Your friend needs to learn how to give airplane rides and introduce people to aviation. It seems as though he was just trying to impress and scare you. Don't let that hold you back.
 
I echo what Jesse Said! Please do not let your friend scare you away from learning to fly. I can assure you that going negative Gs is not part of Private Pilot training and while steep turns are part of the training it is only at a 45 degree bank angle.

Pilots of America has a a few participants in Colorado I am sure they can point you in the direction of a good flight school or flight instructor.
 
jesse said:
Your friend is an idiot and was trying to show off and scare you. There is no place for that in flight training.

It's likely some of what was done may be normal training maneuvers but when they are introduced by a good instructor you'll feel much better about it. I do not do stalls with students until we've talked about it at length on the ground and they know what exactly to expect.

Your friend needs to learn how to give airplane rides and introduce people to aviation. It seems as though he was just trying to impress and scare you. Don't let that hold you back.
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:yeahthat:

Anyone who does that to a student pilot should have his license suspended for a year.
 
Consider this your first flight lesson. When you get your private ticket, there will be a time that you take someone up on their first flight. Remember this experience when you do that.
 
It does not sound like he did anything dangerous or illegal.

But as others have said, that type of horsing around is good practice but definitely not something you would do with someone who is just getting introduced to GA

Either he is dumb or perhaps he thought you had a lot of time riding around in high pwr navy equipment and were used to that sort of thing
 
I had an instructor do something similar to me on my second flight -- he did spins with no briefing or warning. I did not go back for a year, and then made sure I had a different instructor. That was 25 years ago and many, many flying hours ago.

At one point in my flying life I decided I wanted to do aerobatics, and even then, when my passengers knew we would be doing "unusual attitudes" I made sure I remembered that second lesson.
 
A 172 is pretty rugged and Zero G / 65 degree turns (particlarly with just two on board) are not an issue for the airplane. There is no doubt that 172's have been looped and rolled - not that I would suggest that it is safe or legal or a good idea - but the airplane can do it.

That said, find someone else to fly with.

Oh, and I personally consider a 172 to be a big airplane.
 
Your buddy did not do you any favors. The 172 is a tough bird and can handle a lot more than what he did to you. During training, you'll learn how to handle the airplane in some extreme (to you, but not to the airplane) maneuvers. There's no excuse for the way he treated you on a first flight.
 
Clark1961 said:
Diasagree - bank angle limits - nothing more than 45 except in training
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Bunk. There's nothing wrong or illegal with going beyond 45deg banking while maneuvering. Many of us were trained to use 60deg in steep turns and it was, and still is, absolutely no big deal.
Somewhere along the lines in the last couple decades while watering down stuff, someone in charge decided that 45deg was scary steep...and in a few more decades, some borderline flightless superchicken will probably reduce it to 30deg, or 25deg. In 100 years everyone will likely be skidding around turns keeping wings level and spinning into the ground like frisbee's.

Now with a first time passenger or extremely low time student, 60deg is likely a bit much for them simply because they're not use to it. However for a pilot or airplane, it is, or dang well should be, a ho hum no big deal kind of thing.

As for the OP, he needs to take his so called friend and a big stick out behind the hangar.
 
Welcome to PoA. Thanks for posting. Let us encourage you to continue with the idea of becoming a pilot. Lots of good pilots on this board. Most will be appalled at how you were introduced to the pastime.

Don't be shy about sharing your story with any prospective instructor. If they are not also appalled, find someone else.
 
My grandpa would not fly with me or anyone else because when he was a young man someone pulled that crap on him. It's sad and has no place in aviation today.
 
At the very least he should have said "I would like to start a maneuver that most people would find uncomfortable. I can discontinue the maneuver if you hold up your hand" or something like that. Honestly though for a first time passenger I'd expect some standard rate turns and MAYBE some mild slips to give you a good view of something on the ground; however, in a high wing aircraft, there's plenty of view out the side and really no reason to do even that.

When you get your ticket just remember this story and don't act like that to the next victim^H^H^H^H^H^Hpassenger.
 
And another thing - your pilot friend should have briefed every maneuver before it was entered. At your level of experience, I probably would even have briefed the initial climb to cruise on the ground.
 
I will echo most of what's been said. Your coworker is a jackass for apparently deliberately trying to freak you out on your first flight. Just remember two things:

1.) Most people don't fly like that. Ever.
2.) YOU don't have to fly like that. Ever.
 
Clark1961 said:
Diasagree - bank angle limits - nothing more than 45 except in training
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Na you're good to 60 degrees bank and 30 degrees nose up or nose down with pax. I believe most a/c are certified to 60 at maneuvering speed in the normal category
 
You can put any airplane past 60 degrees or whatever it's maximum sustained bank angle is, you just have to be prepared to lose some altitude doing it. And there is the issue of gyro attitude limitations. I believe the DA40 has a 90 degree bank limitation.

I can't imagine doing more than airliner maneuvers while taking someone on their first flight.
 
fgcason said:
Bunk. There's nothing wrong or illegal with going beyond 45deg banking while maneuvering.
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In this case there would be if he was exceeding 60 degrees.
 
Not to mention, I'm not always "comfortable" after repeated 45 degree banks. I mean it isn't that bad and most of the time it is fine, but even a couple 45's isn't something I'd put someone through just for demonstration purposes without a whole lot of briefing.
 
Are you sure you were at 65*? To a lot of inexperienced ride-alongs doing circles around their house at 35* of bank seems like a ton to them.
 
I have a friend who won't fly with me because a few years ago he accepted a flight with a buddy in a 172. The "buddy" thought it would be funny to perform a stall and pretend that the airplane was crashing / out of control.

I think my friend will eventually fly with me (not gonna force him) but it will take some time to undo the damage.

We need to discourage pilots from doing stuff like that with first time passengers. It's like shooting ourselves in the foot.
 
PBristolJr said:
Are you sure you were at 65*? To a lot of inexperienced ride-alongs doing circles around their house at 35* of bank seems like a ton to them.
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Agree.

I also agree with sac- if it was this guy's first flight in a GA plane i'd do everything to keep it as docile as possible.

I disagree with all of the 'your friend is a jackass'. Its possible the guy made an honest mistake and assumed the OP had been flying around in high performance military equipment for awhile and thought he might think a few steep turns in a skyhawk was fun. I'd treat a flight with my grandma differently than a motorcycle racing buddy.

Jus' sayin though. Obviously the OP was freaked out and the pilot should not have scared his passenger.
 
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If you'd like a much mellower ride to show how most folks fly, give me a holler. Happy to go up in the 182 with you and provide a much better experience.

Sightseeing can be done without steep turns and pushovers to lift people out of their seats are totally unnecessary.
 
WBBulldogs said:
So I want to start pilot training in a few months when I get back to Colorado. This has been my plan for the past year almost. One of my co workers heard me talking about this and long story short, he has a PPL and wanted to take me up since I've never even been in anything as small as a 172. I've ridden in plenty of helicopters and airliners while in the Navy though.

So we go up pretty smooth ride until we get into this airspace they use for students. He shows me these falls and then decides to circle around them. He banks at least 60 degrees or more (maybe 65+) from what I was looking at the Attitude Indicator for about 5-10 seconds. I heard stall horns so it started freaking me out. Then he asks if I've ever been weightless. I really was still kinda shocked by the first maneuver so I was silent then he made us go weightless. The final thing that he did was an "emergency descent" this bank angle was a little better than that first 60 degree but still rough and I felt the G's.

This experience left a sour taste in my mouth. I don't know if these maneuvers are common with piloting or while being a student but I've never heard of people being so rough while flying. It almost makes me want to reconsider learning. It doesn't really bother me that we did the maneuvers but I had no briefing saying that's what we were gonna do. I don't know much about 172's and if they can handle that kind of flying. I believe if I knew more about what is too hard on that plane or if a good instructor was by my side I would have no worries.

I should have known better than to go with this coworker as he's unpredictable and is almost a showoff at work. This just kinda rattled me and I was wondering if I am over reacting or if this is normal?
Click to expand...

Your friend is a dumbass and was showing off. With that kind of attitude, I wouldn't be surprised if he became a statistic...

If you do decide to actually do flight training, you can rest assured, a real instructor, a REAL pilot, would NEVER do something stupid and arrogant like this.
 
Guys like the OPs friend are one major reason many people are scared of "small" planes. Shameful to treat someone like that on an intro ride. And if he were truly doing an emer descent in a steep bank as described, there should be no g-load, since you are descending in an unloaded condition. Of course he doesn't sound like the type to actually know what he is doing... Just sayin...
 
WBBulldogs said:
So we go up pretty smooth ride until we get into this airspace they use for students. He shows me these falls and then decides to circle around them. He banks at least 60 degrees or more (maybe 65+) from what I was looking at the Attitude Indicator for about 5-10 seconds. I heard stall horns so it started freaking me out. Then he asks if I've ever been weightless. I really was still kinda shocked by the first maneuver so I was silent then he made us go weightless. The final thing that he did was an "emergency descent" this bank angle was a little better than that first 60 degree but still rough and I felt the G's.



I should have known better than to go with this coworker as he's unpredictable and is almost a showoff at work. This just kinda rattled me and I was wondering if I am over reacting or if this is normal?
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It sounds as though you have an understanding of how to read an AI.
While there is a possibility that the turn(s) may not have been that steep, I'll go with your observation. Performing a 60 degree banked turn without warning with a newcomer on board is rude. Going beyond that is aerobatic flight. There are requirements for this, your friend may want to review FAR 91.303, as well as make sure you guys are equipped with parachutes.
I'll stop being so nitpicky but one thing is sure, he is no ambassador for GA and I hope you don't see this experience as being the norm for GA.
 
> This experience left a sour taste in my mouth. I don't know if these maneuvers are
> common with piloting

Common? No. Not. Non. Nyet. A 60-degree bank, turn is a proficiency
maneuver that is required to be demonstrated by applicants for Commercial
certificates. But it's just a proficiency maneuver - very seldom needed or
used in routine GA flying.

> or while being a student

No. Not. Non. Nyet.

Student pilots training for a Private certificate are required to demonstrate
45-degree bank, turns. Again; very seldom need or used in routine flying.
In many (most?) instances, a GA pilot "needing" to bank beyond
30-degrees, has substantively misjudged something else, and is simply
proceeding to the next-step in the accident chain.

There is also a requirement to demonstrate an accelerated stall. Some
primary trainers require 60-degrees of bank and a firm tug on the elevator.
That'll beep the stall warning. I'm guessing your "friend" may have done
an accelerated stall.

> I've never heard of people being so rough while flying.

Zero-G another thing that has little practical use in routine GA flying.
Box canyon/fjord flying ... maybe. That is the only time I've seen a
zero-G turn demonstrated for [cough] good reason.

Emergency descents are another proficiency maneuver.

Those that diagnosis your friend as an idiot, jackass and/or jerk are on
the right track. I doubt he was intending to genuinely practice anything
while you were along. Perhaps he experienced acute testosterone
poisoning. Or; if he's a bit of a sociopath ... was trying to get you to do a
Technicolor Yawn; or worse.

Your friend has at least one serious judgement problem. Likely, more. If
you decide to pursue flight lessons, he is NOT the guy you want as a
mentor. Probably wise to not even talk flying with this clown. Heck, you
should [re]consider if he is worthy of being your friend.
 
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dell30rb said:
It does not sound like he did anything dangerous or illegal.
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If the description is accurate, he violated 14 CFR 91.307(c)(1). With the stall warning going off, 14 CFR 91.13 is arguable.

Find a better "friend" to introduce you to aviation. There are several good outfits around COS. I've flown with Cutter before.
 
> It does not sound like he did anything dangerous or illegal.

I'll disagree. The CFRs define aerobatics as:

“an intentional ... an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not
necessary for normal flight."

The 60-degree of bank and 30-degree of pitch are the rules regarding
when parachutes are required.

The only fig-leaf this clown has, is claiming that he was performing
proficiency maneuvers. But then, why take an interested and inexperienced
friend along on a flight where you intend to practice proficiency maneuvers
involving abnormal acceleration & emergency procedures? A CFI? Sure! An
experienced pilot? Uh, okay. An interested newbie? Wrong.

FWIW; one of our local RV-drivers, attending a balloon launch, decided to
perform an ad-hoc demonstration of steep descents to high-speed passes,
to steep climbs, finishing with knife-edge turns to downwind.

Unknown to our hero, an off-duty FSDO Inspector took his family to see
the balloon launch. When the RV-driver was queried, he insisted that he
was practicing low approaches and trying to clear wildlife from the runway.
IIRC, he earned three violations for:

- Aerobatics
- No chutes
- Careless & reckless
 
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Most will be appalled at how you were introduced to the pastime.
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I agree with Aunt Peggy on this. When I take someone for their first ride, I give them a general briefing before we take off, tell them about the instruments, etc., when we get in the airplane, and then tell them anytime I am about to bank for a turn. I also tell them to let me know if at any time they are uncomfortable and we will return and land right away. Then again, I am concerned about the future of GA and want more involved instead of trying to scare them off.
 
Wow, I'm gone for a day of work and go to sleep and all this response. I really wouldn't consider him a friend. More of an associate and coworker. Especially after this stuff. So I guess I had a little bit of a reason to sort of react the way I did.

Thanks everyone for the posts and info. It sort of unsettled me. As for if he really was banking at 60 degrees. He was I remember where he put the wings on the ADI. It was def at the 60 degree mark or even further. I have heard from another coworker which is actually a friend that he has been going around saying I was scared when he took me up. So what? He's a douche.

I still really wanna learn to fly but was worried this experience might prevent me from really enjoying it. I think once I get with an instructor and talk to him I will be good to go. BTW, I am not in COS right now. I'll be over there towards December time frame. I'm currently in Guam. Thanks for the replies everyone!
 
WBBulldogs said:
I still really wanna learn to fly but was worried this experience might prevent me from really enjoying it. I think once I get with an instructor and talk to him I will be good to go.
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Good for you, Brandon. And thanks for your service. You'll love flying GA!
 
If someone does that to me on a first flight I can guarantee you he's going to receive a major lesson once we hit the ground.
 
Let's see here if I'm learning to look up the FARs correctly.....
(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds—
(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or
(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.
(d) Paragraph (c) of this section does not apply to—
(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or
(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by—
(i) A certificated flight instructor; or
(ii) An airline transport pilot instructing in accordance with §61.67 of this chapter.
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Assuming the OP is correct, and he did exceed 60 degrees, it looks to me like he did operate contrary to the FAR. Unless, of course, the pilot was either a CFI, or they were both wearing chutes.

Do I have this right?
 
hopmedic said:
Let's see here if I'm learning to look up the FARs correctly.....

Assuming the OP is correct, and he did exceed 60 degrees, it looks to me like he did operate contrary to the FAR. Unless, of course, the pilot was either a CFI, or they were both wearing chutes.

Do I have this right?
Click to expand...

Yes.

But just being a CFI doesn't make it correct either - instead you must be a CFI providing spin training towards a certificate. There is an advisory circular though that states a CFI can do it with essentially anyone for training, doesn't have to just be another CFI student.
 
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