Bad Day in Upstate NY

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As a long-term EAA member, and pilot of several Young Eagle flights, it's hard to express how awful this accident is to the families and to the organization. Young Eagles is such a rare and wonderful program, I pray it doesn't get litigated out of existence by this tragic accident.
 
If indeed this involved a young eagle, it would be the second instance of a fatality while flying with young eagles.

Many of my friends locally fly this particular event. I just cannot imagine the minutes following the loss of the two aircraft (2 planes left, neither returned to the field).

Prayers for all involved.
 
Young Eagles have flown over a million passengers. No surprise that there have been a couple fatalities. That said, my heart goes out to all involved. I second the hope that litigation doesn't end the program.
 
Among the worst things I can imagine.

I have flown about 18 young people spread over three Young Eagles events.

It has always both surprised and gratified me that parents are willing to put their trust in a complete stranger. And in my case let their kids be strapped into a contraption marked EXPERIMENTAL.

Still, what a tragedy.
 
Can't understand the crash,usually the young eagle flights ,stay at the airport of origin and follow a regular traffic pattern. That way everyone is going in the same direction. Prayers to the families.
 
Absolutely tragic for everyone, the parents and families of those lost for sure but also the EAA group.

frfly172 said:
Can't understand the crash,usually the young eagle flights ,stay at the airport of origin and follow a regular traffic pattern. That way everyone is going in the same direction. Prayers to the families.
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Who knows but I'm sure we will find out. When giving rides like that it is critical to plan out a flight route for all planes to follow.
 
Seen this in the EAA facebook page.

Sad news for all involved,will be interested to find out how such a collision happened, however I have faith in the good that the program brings and I hope the program continues.
 
EAA HQ sent out an email Saturday confirming this was at the Young Eagle Rallye.
 
I have to say. Young Eagles events NEED to be run like a precision operation. These few accidents reinforce every bad, although inaccurate, stereotype about GA. "Old guys who shouldn't be flying run into each other killing themselves, passengers, and risking people on the ground".

This particular airport has been trying to extend its runway, and has fought off the anti's who claimed safety issues as reasons to deny permits.

Already the town supervisor has brought up that this accident shows indeed a risk. Its sad to say, we are better off with no Young Eagles events, than bad/tragic ones.

This accident hopefully will cause EAA, AOPA and all of the GA community to reflect on the real risks of our actions, and how to make sure that we do not confirm what so so many assume. Its pretty safe to say, this airport, local flight instruction (this is the second time small GA planes have made the news due to off airport landings/crashes this summer within a 10 mile radius of KBUF) and GA in a whole has taken a massive hit.

I know one ever applies power. Intending on the flight will result in an accident. But sometimes that isn't enough.
 
n20junkie said:
I have to say. Young Eagles events NEED to be run like a precision operation. These few accidents reinforce every bad, although inaccurate, stereotype about GA. "Old guys who shouldn't be flying run into each other killing themselves, passengers, and risking people on the ground".

This particular airport has been trying to extend its runway, and has fought off the anti's who claimed safety issues as reasons to deny permits.

Already the town supervisor has brought up that this accident shows indeed a risk. Its sad to say, we are better off with no Young Eagles events, than bad/tragic ones.
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I'm not a big fan of the YE program, although I've given plenty of YE rides. The truth is that bicycles, skateboards, cars, airplanes, the beach, and everything else that requires a level of activity above sitting in a barca-lounger has an element of risk and people need to face that reality.
 
n20junkie said:
I have to say. Young Eagles events NEED to be run like a precision operation. These few accidents reinforce every bad, although inaccurate, stereotype about GA. "Old guys who shouldn't be flying run into each other killing themselves, passengers, and risking people on the ground".

This particular airport has been trying to extend its runway, and has fought off the anti's who claimed safety issues as reasons to deny permits.

Already the town supervisor has brought up that this accident shows indeed a risk. Its sad to say, we are better off with no Young Eagles events, than bad/tragic ones.

This accident hopefully will cause EAA, AOPA and all of the GA community to reflect on the real risks of our actions, and how to make sure that we do not confirm what so so many assume. Its pretty safe to say, this airport, local flight instruction (this is the second time small GA planes have made the news due to off airport landings/crashes this summer within a 10 mile radius of KBUF) and GA in a whole has taken a massive hit.

I know one ever applies power. Intending on the flight will result in an accident. But sometimes that isn't enough.
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Almost 2 millions kids have been given rides. No sure we need a knee jerk reaction and major changes to the program. Tragic as it is, the parents sign a waiver.

I'm not sure the two fatalities had any thing to do with the length of the runway. :dunno:
 
Public relations has NOTHING to do with facts. A grandfather and a 14 year old boy will be burried this week. Thats a headline that sticks into the mids of people. Every mother who has a child wanting to fly will remember this for the next few years. No mother or parent will be able to be told how safe it is, when a mid-air with fatalities occured in the area.

Now that the local Anti's have an accident at the airport to hang their hat on, a runway extension will probably not pass the needed vote the permit. It was an uphill battle prior to this.

It doesn't matter that more kids die in pools. Airplanes are seen as "risky" and stuff like this supports the inaccurate stereotype.
 
n20junkie said:
Public relations has NOTHING to do with facts. A grandfather and a 14 year old boy will be burried this week. Thats a headline that sticks into the mids of people. Every mother who has a child wanting to fly will remember this for the next few years. No mother or parent will be able to be told how safe it is, when a mid-air with fatalities occured in the area.

Now that the local Anti's have an accident at the airport to hang their hat on, a runway extension will probably not pass the needed vote the permit. It was an uphill battle prior to this.

It doesn't matter that more kids die in pools. Airplanes are seen as "risky" and stuff like this supports the inaccurate stereotype.
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Gives us a break. Nobody cares enough about GA to hate it that much. We'd be lucky to have so much passion we could be hated. Mothers in our current culture that would allow their precious to fly in a little plane will still do so. The other mothers could never be convinced anyway. It sucks but it ain't that big a deal. Read the thread the biggest concern is eaa overreacting and pulling the plug.
 
Agreed that YE events need to be treated like precision maneuvers by the participating pilots and helpers. That doesn't mean it can't be enjoyable, but everyone needs to be dead serious about the operations.

At one airport I know of, some of the pilots wanted to hot load the kids. Another refused to fly the agreed-upon pattern. I declined to participate with that mentality, the mere thought of it made me...queasy uneasy.
 
iflyvfr said:
Agreed that YE events need to be treated like precision maneuvers by the participating pilots and helpers. That doesn't mean it can't be enjoyable, but everyone needs to be dead serious about the operations.

At one airport I know of, some of the pilots wanted to hot load the kids. Another refused to fly the agreed-upon pattern. I declined to participate with that mentality, the mere thought of it made me...queasy uneasy.
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Young Eagle Pilot Guidelines prohibit hot loading, so that should've been a non-starter to begin with.

Thankfully the YE Coordinator at our Chapter insists on a precision-like operation. If the participating pilots don't agree to the rules set out, they won't be flying as part of our Chapter-sponsored YE rally. With 10+ participating aircraft at times (along with other non-participating aircraft using the airport) everyone needs to be on the same page and operating with the same standards.
 
kyleb said:
I'm not a big fan of the YE program, although I've given plenty of YE rides. The truth is that bicycles, skateboards, cars, airplanes, the beach, and everything else that requires a level of activity above sitting in a barca-lounger has an element of risk and people need to face that reality.
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That's exactly how I feel. I've participated in only one event and it was handled safely. However, the whole event is a stack of distractions and every distraction has the potential to, well, distract. Not the place for me to be flying someone else's kids.
iflyvfr said:
Agreed that YE events need to be treated like precision maneuvers by the participating pilots and helpers. That doesn't mean it can't be enjoyable, but everyone needs to be dead serious about the operations.

At one airport I know of, some of the pilots wanted to hot load the kids. Another refused to fly the agreed-upon pattern. I declined to participate with that mentality, the mere thought of it made me...queasy uneasy.
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Agreed, and it would have done the same to me.

Personally, I welcome the opportunity to fly kids but only do it outside of any organized program. That way I can manage it to reduce the things that might distract me from safe flying.

But I think it's a great program and otherwise support it. Just not for me.
 
I have never participated in a YE event, nor am I likely to, but I am curious about how they are conducted. In light of this tragic event, is there a pre flight briefing with all the participating pilots in attendance? Are there rigid, prescribed flight plans for the pilots to follow, or do they make it up as they go along? Who exactly plans the flight plans for each aircraft? Do they use a ground controller on radio?

This is a pretty shameful accident for the EAA. Since the event is put on with their support and has their name on it, they need to get it together. I say this as an EAA member myself. Seriously, two pilots participating in the same event at the same airport on the same day crashed into one another. That is pathetic. Somebody, or bodies, somewhere having to do with the event did a crappy job. This is not just a "**** happens" situation. It is a failure. They need to go pro, or go home.

Sadly, this is an instance where a lawsuit (very likely to happen) is actually justified.:(
 
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Dav8or said:
I have never participated in a YE event, nor am I likely to, but I am curious about how they are conducted. In light of this tragic event, is there a pre flight briefing with all the participating pilots in attendance? Are there rigid, prescribed flight plans for the pilots to follow, or do they make it up as they go along? Who exactly plans the flight plans for each aircraft? Do they use a ground controller on radio?

This is a pretty shameful accident for the EAA. Since the event is put on with their support and has their name on it, they need to get it together. I say this as an EAA member myself. Seriously, two pilots participating in the same event at the same airport on the same day crashed into one another. That is pathetic. Somebody, or bodies, somewhere having to do with the event did a crappy job. This is not just a "**** happens" situation. It is a failure. They need to go pro, or go home.
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One of the EAA chapters colorado has very specific routes, ground ops, and new pilots aren't allowed to fly YEs until they attend a rallye to see how ops are managed. Due to the wide variety in speeds, we have 2 routes to keep the faster and slower aircraft separated. The tower is great managing 10-15 aircraft along with the regular traffic, which is very low on YE days. In fact the ATIS is very specific that YE event is going on and please avoid T&G. Since the event is once a month for 3 hours in the morning, the local schools are very cooperative.

We've been doing this for almost 15 years and the worst is 3 kids barfing. I had one of them. First time I ever declared an emergency. We have had a few "intruders" that caused some traffic issues, but those were people/aircraft unfamiliar with the area and unfamiliar with YE events.

Heads on swivel, everyone watching outside. And no one tries to show off. Airplanes stacking up? We slow down takeoffs and the aircraft in the air have procedures to deal with it.

Preflight with everyone before we start flying, then once pilots & ground crew go outside, another preflight in the classroom with parents and YEs.

And yes, we've had to 'uninvite' pilots for various reasons.

These are some of the reasons our ground chief and YE coordinator have each been honored at Airventure at the YE dinner.
 
Dave,

You start by asking 4 questions.

Then, before they even get answered, you pass judgment.

This seems to be a pattern with you.

Can we maybe take into consideration the 1.9 million safe and enjoyable Young Eagle flights? 2 fatal accidents in that number of flights is an exemplary safety record.

I have done a Young Eagle flights, and am in a position to answer each of your questions.

But why bother?
 
Dav8or said:
Sadly, this is an instance where a lawsuit (very likely to happen) is actually justified.:(
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F'em they signed the waiver.:rolleyes: If it was safe everyone would do it and there wouldn't be a waiver.:rolleyes2:
Seriously unless the pilots were playing at formation it is an unfortunate accident. 2 out of 2 million gotta be safer then going to school. Nevermind crazy stuff like swimming or peewee football.
 
I have personal knowledge of two accidents (nonfatal) involving YE flights. One pilot tried to takeoff with the control lock in, crashed after liftoff but thankfully no injuries. The other was some 400 pounds overweight and ran off the end of the runway. For some reason no one was wearing their shoulder harnesses and probably for that reason, two were injured seriously. I think the EAA could do a better job of vetting the pilots.
 
I have flown several ye flights in two states. If you follow the plan for the day,there should be no problem. Maybe Dave should volunteer with an eaa group at a young Eagles event,and see what's supposed to happen. Easy to criticize from outside.
 
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