Bad day for landings!

[sm237]

Finally had some nice weather here in central Oklahoma and was able to squeeze some money out of the wife for flying. Well anyway, went out solo and practiced some ground reference stuff. Turns around a point, s-turns, slow flight, and some stalls power on and off. Everthing was right down the middle of the PTS. I like power off stalls (kinda fun) but power on stalls scare the pooh pooh out of me. Any ideas why the difference? Got back to the airport winds where 340/5 for runway 31, I usually do 2 notches of flaps, today I thought I would try all 40 degrees of flaps. Well nedless to say it handles different. It sinks like a rock once airspeed gets around 60. I bounced pretty good, but I had read so many times on message boards not to force a bad landing and just go around. So I added power and went around. Does that count as a landing for logging purposes? 2nd time around approach and speed where much better, but I got on the brakes really soon after touchdown and I heard this squealing noise. What could that be? O'crap I locked the brakes up for a split second, reapplied brakes and locked agiain. This time got off of them competely.

Is it unusual for a student to have different phases of a single flight have such different levels of performence? It is rather dis-heartening for the landings to be bad when 1. they normally aren't. 2. The rest of the flight was performed rather well. (tooting my horn) Any ideas, comments, or suggestions?

Thanks
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[ntbjounin]

I bounced pretty good, but I had read so many times on message boards not to force a bad landing and just go around. So I added power and went around. Does that count as a landing for logging purposes? 2nd time around approach and speed where much better, but I got on the brakes really soon after touchdown and I heard this squealing noise. What could that be? O'crap I locked the brakes up for a split second, reapplied brakes and locked agiain. This time got off of them competely.

Is it unusual for a student to have different phases of a single flight have such different levels of performence? It is rather dis-heartening for the landings to be bad when 1. they normally aren't. 2. The rest of the flight was performed rather well. (tooting my horn) Any ideas, comments, or suggestions?

Thanks

if you bounced REALLY well, how many landings is that!? lol jk, its only one... and no go arounds dont count as landings, but they are important never the less.

yes that's normal for students to have different landings different times... the key to becoming a good pilot is to make consistent landings. do the same thing the same way every single time, and you'll make everyone look the same. it'll get there.
if it's really windy you might want to go with less flaps, and maybe add a few knots of airspeed to avoid any windshear.

also, instead of immediately applying the brakes, keep the back pressure, and keep the nose off the ground. aerodynamic braking will help greatly, and it's much easier on the airplane. but dont let that nose THUD to the ground... ease it down.

 

[dmccormack]

Finally had some nice weather here in central Oklahoma and was able to squeeze some money out of the wife for flying. Well anyway, went out solo and practiced some ground reference stuff. Turns around a point, s-turns, slow flight, and some stalls power on and off. Everthing was right down the middle of the PTS. I like power off stalls (kinda fun) but power on stalls scare the pooh pooh out of me. Any ideas why the difference? Got back to the airport winds where 340/5 for runway 31, I usually do 2 notches of flaps, today I thought I would try all 40 degrees of flaps. Well nedless to say it handles different. It sinks like a rock once airspeed gets around 60. I bounced pretty good, but I had read so many times on message boards not to force a bad landing and just go around. So I added power and went around. Does that count as a landing for logging purposes? 2nd time around approach and speed where much better, but I got on the brakes really soon after touchdown and I heard this squealing noise. What could that be? O'crap I locked the brakes up for a split second, reapplied brakes and locked agiain. This time got off of them competely.

Is it unusual for a student to have different phases of a single flight have such different levels of performence? It is rather dis-heartening for the landings to be bad when 1. they normally aren't. 2. The rest of the flight was performed rather well. (tooting my horn) Any ideas, comments, or suggestions?

Thanks

First, on power off vs power on stalls -- power off the nose up angle is rather benign if you slow down and have full flaps. The degrees of difference from stall to recovery are minimal.

Power on you may have experienced a wing drop, if you didn't fully compensate for left turning tendencies. Also, in power off stalls the nose angle is higher, and the difference between stall angle up and recovery angle down may be greater (though it doesn't have to be).

You may also have spins in the back of your mind.

If so, have your CFI demonstrate spins and recovery in an approved airplane (CFI should ensure CG is within limits, etc). After a couple you may want to try recovery yourself.

After a few spins and recovery, you'll realize the worst that can happen when stalling is a spin, and you'll know how to prevent them (don't introduce any yaw while stalling) or at the very least recover (Power back, ailerons neutral, Rudder opposite rotation, elevator forward to break the stall, then back to recover).

BUT -- don't go figuring out spins on your own -- get a CFI and an airplane competent and capable in spins.

Another piece of advice that may help is to go with the stall break -- in other words, don't hold yourself back in the seat -- that only intensifies the "falling" sensation.

And -- you should probably do stalls with your CFI until you're sick of them. Face the bogeyman enough times to realize it ain't gonna bite.

As far as landings -- have you landed full flaps before? Many students are surprised at how much nose up is required on the transition from descent to level above the runway with full flaps.

Bouncing is almost always the result of too much speed. Get the airplane slowed down to the appropriate approach speed, get just above the runway, reduce power (if any power is in on level off) and hold it, hold it, hold it -- just don't let it land.

In crosswinds many pilots just want to get the landing "over with" so they force it down while its still flying.

Doesn't work.

Of course your crosswind correction will have to be constantly adjusted for the varying winds and the ever-changing airspeed a few feet above the ground -- good -- you should be flying the airplane until it's tied down or in the hangar.

Hopefully some of this helps -- and keep in mind -- you're not experiencing anything different than every pilot since the Wright brothers!!!

 

[dmccormack]

if it's really windy you might want to go with less flaps, and maybe add a few knots of airspeed to avoid any windshear.

Windshear is very rarely a concern for GA airplanes -- we fly so slowly that what a large transport airplane would experience as windshear we experience as up, then down.

I agree that extra airspeed is a good move on gusty days, but I prefer to use a speed that will not let the airspeed excursion go below target approach speed.

So if approach speed is 80, the a/s will vary between 80 and 90, but doesn't go below 80.

The Airplane flying Handbook suggests adding "1/2 the gust factor" to the approach a/s, which means if winds are 15G25, the gust factor is 10, so add 5 knots.

The reason I prefer the former method (a/s excursions limit) is that on gusty days the speed is widely variable, and so what the ASOS is experiencing may be very different than what the airplane is experiencing 100' AGL.

PLus it takes less math.B)

 

[sm237]

First, on power off vs power on stalls -- power off the nose up angle is rather benign if you slow down and have full flaps. The degrees of difference from stall to recovery are minimal.

Power on you may have experienced a wing drop, if you didn't fully compensate for left turning tendencies. Also, in power off stalls the nose angle is higher, and the difference between stall angle up and recovery angle down may be greater (though it doesn't have to be).

Thats what concerns me is the left wing drops and it is fast. I dont seem to get the same feeling as a power off stall (mussy controls, little buffeting). Its just bam there it is.

As far as landings -- have you landed full flaps before? Many students are surprised at how much nose up is required on the transition from descent to level above the runway with full flaps.

NO, this was my 1st landing in the 150 w/ full flaps, did it in the 172 though.

Bouncing is almost always the result of too much speed. Get the airplane slowed down to the appropriate approach speed, get just above the runway, reduce power (if any power is in on level off) and hold it, hold it, hold it -- just don't let it land.

I think you hit it right on, I might have been a little fast as I think about it.


Thanks for the advise!
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[Maxmosbey]

Over the spring my landings were starting to get pretty bad. I was bouncing all the time. I took a ride with Tony, and he slowed me down quite a bit on my approach. One thing that I noticed was that when I got over the threshold, I was starting to lower the nose and dive into the flare so to speak, actually picking up an extra five kts or more just before I started to flare out. The landings are much better now. As far as 40 degrees of flaps, you know that just because it has 40 degrees, you don't have to use it all.

 

[rottydaddy]

I have to repeat what I often say: Your worst landing is probably one you haven't made yet. I honestly cannot say each of my landings has been better than the previous one, and I don't think anybody can. It's hard to pinpoint what causes "bad streaks", but usually if you try harder to fly approaches as you were taught, as if you were just learning how, you realize you've just been letting your attention to details slip a little.
Coming over the fence with too much speed is usually the first thing that happens... that would explain the bouncing. It doesn't take much.

A good way to get a feel for handling that plane (I assume C172?) with full flaps is to configure it that way for slow flight, and practice holding altitude and descending. With power, you should be able to control the descent rate easily.

As for the wing dropping in a power-on stall: for starters, make sure you are not fiddling with the ailerons as you get into the stall- they won't do much except get you in trouble in that mode of flight. When the stall breaks, correct any wing-wagging with your feet only. The dihedral will take care of your bank (up to a point) as long as you are using the rudder.
Just have to keep your feet working, and your yaw inputs should keep the plane on an even keel.

Maneuvering with rudder only is another good slow-flight drill... whenever I practice MCA, I always dirty it up and slow it up as much as I can and do at least two good 90-degree turns with rudder only, while trying to maintain altitude.

 

[Dan Thomas]

As for the wing dropping in a power-on stall: for starters, make sure you are not fiddling with the ailerons as you get into the stall- they won't do much except get you in trouble in that mode of flight. When the stall breaks, correct any wing-wagging with your feet only. The dihedral will take care of your bank (up to a point) as long as you are using the rudder.
Just have to keep your feet working, and your yaw inputs should keep the plane on an even keel.

With the propeller turning clockwise as seen from the cockpit, as in most North American aircraft, the left wing will normally stall and drop first even if the ball is centered. The airflow off the prop is a spiral, especially at low forward speed, and so the left wing's root is seeing a higher angle of attack than the right one and stall starts sooner and progresses a little farther on the left. As the left wing goes down and the nose begins to drop, ease off the back pressure to break the stall and use more right rudder (which you already had lots of) to raise the wing. I always taught students to leave the power in to speed the recovery unless the airplane fell into a spin.
Cessna 150s and 172s are relatively easy to handle in these stalls. Others can get downright nasty. If you learn in a Cessna and then go buy something like a Champ or Citabria or some other older design, get a thorough checkout from an instructor with plenty of time on the type. Explore those stalls and some spins and see what happens if you skid it in a low-speed turn. Just do it with lots of altitude. Teaches you respect for your new pet. It might be cute but it might have a bite, too.

Dan
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[sm237]

Thanks for all the pointers. Im going to call my cfi and go do some practice with him with me so I dont do something dumb! Thanks again!
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Honda S90

 

[ron22]

You do not say what kind of plane.
When I did my training the school had 2 172 with 40 deg of flaps. One had them locked out the other did not. During the beginning of my training I was told just not to use the 40 location. One day during my training the instructor pulled the power over an airport and said I lost engine. I was high and was trying to figure out best was to get down and lined up with the runway. After I did my best I was lined up with runway but still high. The instructor said two choices do a slip or use all the flaps the plane had. I use the 40 deg and like you said it it drops with full flaps.
After that we did a few more landings with 40 deg. He said use 40 if you need to but usually you don’t. It was nice to know you had the option if needed.
You can always go up with an instructor and ask to do some landings with 40 deg of flaps.

 

[jesse]

You do not say what kind of plane.
When I did my training the school had 2 172 with 40 deg of flaps. One had them locked out the other did not. During the beginning of my training I was told just not to use the 40 location. One day during my training the instructor pulled the power over an airport and said I lost engine. I was high and was trying to figure out best was to get down and lined up with the runway. After I did my best I was lined up with runway but still high. The instructor said two choices do a slip or use all the flaps the plane had. I use the 40 deg and like you said it it drops with full flaps.
After that we did a few more landings with 40 deg. He said use 40 if you need to but usually you don’t. It was nice to know you had the option if needed.
You can always go up with an instructor and ask to do some landings with 40 deg of flaps.

If I'm flying a 172 that has 40 degrees of flaps, I'm going to be touching down on the runway with 40 degrees of flaps out. Every. Single. Time.

I'm also the only pilot I've seen that takes off with some flaps out on *every* single takeoff in a 172 or 150 (or any other airplane that has something to gain by doing so). If I can gain a little performance--I do...you never know when you'll need it.

 

[ApacheBob]

You'll do better next time. Just don't wait too long or you will lose the sensations and get rusty.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

If I'm flying a 172 that has 40 degrees of flaps, I'm going to be touching down on the runway with 40 degrees of flaps out. Every. Single. Time.

Yep. The quicker you bleed off the flying speed, the easier it is to not bend the airplane. Make it finish flying!

I recently landed the 182 in winds that were 20G29, 60 degrees off the runway (so, 87% crosswind component, 50% headwind). Full, 40 degree flaps. As a result, the gusts only picked us up off the runway, briefly, ONCE.