Back seat pilots

[corjulo]

I had the first experience of flying with a back seat pilot. About 5 second before I was going to do something he would ask, "gonna do this or that"?

Add to that subjective stuff like, "you're four miles out why are you not at pattern altitude" or "don't contact tower now while someone's on final", I was holding short ready to go.

Anyway. We all get taught differently. Heck, CFI's on this board don't always agree. My main CFI was also a glider pilot and he was big on a decent that puts you at pattern altitude a mile from the pattern and a bit high on the base to final turn, using a slip once you know you have the field made.

By the time I was on the ground I was so wound up I made a dumb shutdown mistake (ignition before mixture) which of course he jumped all over. Thing is I really like the guy in every other respect. I just didn't know he was going to be my wife in the air.

Anyone else have to deal with a back seat pilot (NOT A CFI mind you)?

 

[Dean]

The only thing close I've had was when I did my BFR. I did it with another CFI and he wanted to teach me how to fly all over. Some of the things I was taught was not the way he teaches it, so he wanted me to change and do it his way. I ask him if I was doing it wrong or unsafe and he said no, thats just not the way I do it. I said thanks for the option, but I like doing it this way, He shut up after that.

 

[spiderweb]

LOL. "If you don't stop it, I'll turn this thing around and we WON'T be going to Disneyworld!!!"

To be serious, though, you have to tell him that as long as you are PIC, you will be making the decisions unless you ask for suggestions. A better plan still is to set who will do what before departure.

But, here's my chance to be a backseat CFI regarding this quote:

. . . and a bit high on the base to final turn, using a slip once you know you have the field made.

As a general practice, it is probably better to fly a stabilized pattern and only use the slip when truly necessary (i.e., you were too high by mistake, or you have a short field for which you have to use a slip). Just my two, non-CFI cents.

 

[Witmo]

As a general practice, it is probably better to fly a stabilized pattern and only use the slip when truly necessary (i.e., you were too high by mistake, or you have a short field for which you have to use a slip). Just my two, non-CFI cents.

You imply that slipping denotes an "unstabilized" approach. Lots of airplanes don't have flaps and slip on every approach. I see nothing wrong with it--it's technique not procedure.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Anyone else have to deal with a back seat pilot (NOT A CFI mind you)?

Use the Pilot isolate button on the audio panel.

If you don't have one, remind him who is PIC and tell him he can fly however he wants, when he's footing the bill and acting PIC.

 

[spiderweb]

You imply that slipping denotes an "unstabilized" approach. Lots of airplanes don't have flaps and slip on every approach. I see nothing wrong with it--it's technique not procedure.

I will hedge that somewhat. In a glider or aircraft without flaps, slipping might be SOP.

In aircraft with flaps, and perhaps barring exceptions such as unusual fields, the FAA recommends a partial-power stabilized VFR approach. In summary, the recommendation is to be on airspeed and on glidepath, with some power (how much power will depend on aircraft type).

If one is on final, full flaps, power off, and is still going to land long, you have two choices--1) slip, or 2) go-around. IMO, if I am in this situation, I'm going around.

See also Ron's comments and reference in this thread: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?p=89179#post89179

 

[SkyHog]

I was this backseat pilot (right seat pilot.....) yesterday. I felt bad, everytime I said something as a suggestion, I realized I was being a bit of a jerk, so I followed every statement with "umm....thats just a suggestion of course - you don't have to follow my advice, you're the PIC."

Why was I doing that? ugh. It was mostly stuff like "You gonna fly straight in? Oh no...ok - well, over state road 44, if you start turning now, you'll be set up perfectly for the 45 to downwind" etc. Not cool.

 

[Richard]

Yeah, I have had backseaters like that. Your pre-flight brief can be tailored to take care of most of that but still I guess it's a personality type you cannot completely overcome. One sureshot method I've developed is this one simple statement: We'll talk about it on the ground.

Even the most perverse backseater understands the implications of that.

 

[Skip Miller]

I brief all passengers that if I hold my hand up in the air like this (demonstrate) that means I need total silence to concentrate. Maybe it is just we're getting a radio call I need to hear unobstructed, maybe it means we are in the pattern and I need to devote all attention to that part of the flight. Two exceptions: smoke or flames from our aircraft, and traffic that I haven't seen.

It seems to work, but I haven't flown with a kibitzer yet.

-Skip

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I would throw it into a 60* bank and yank it a bit while turning over my shoulder to say, "Eh, what'dj yer say??"!!

Or just let go of the yoke, (while trimmed a goodly bit nose down) and fold your arms on your chest in a huge pout, saying "FINE. If you don't like how I'm flying, I WONT" (works best if they're in the back.) Then stare out the side window as the airspeed winds up!



sorry, these are all just silly daytime fantasies.


He probably has some twisted idea of CRM and is determined to participate.

 

[ScottM]

Use the Pilot isolate button on the audio panel.

That was going to me my suggestion. If you do not have that feature. UPGRADE!

 

[TMetzinger]

I will hedge that somewhat. In a glider or aircraft without flaps, slipping might be SOP.

In aircraft with flaps, and perhaps barring exceptions such as unusual fields, the FAA recommends a partial-power stabilized VFR approach. In summary, the recommendation is to be on airspeed and on glidepath, with some power (how much power will depend on aircraft type).

And if you have an engine failure while two miles out on final, the FAA recommends you accept the off airport landing? Wish they'd pay out if that happens. What the FAA suggests makes sense in transport and multiengine airplanes, where there is either a hyper-reliable single engine (turboprop) or multiple engines, because the risk of landing off airport is less than the risks that may come with an unstabilized approach in these kinds of airplanes.

For airplanes still flying with single piston engines, it's probably better to make the approach so that a powerplant failure doesn't result in undue hazard to people or property on the ground (gee I think that's a FAR somewhere), and that generally means flying the approach so that you can glide to a landing, at least when VFR. Single engine IFR comes with a bunch of additional risks, one of which is precisely this vulnerability, but you can adapt even then with extra speed on final if you and the airplane can shed it when the runway is made (think a slip or speed brakes or holding flaps until the runway is in sight).

In the end, it's all up to individual pilot judgement. I tend to fly VFR patterns in such a way that I can make the runway if the engine fails. But if I'm too high and/or fast on final and a brief slip won't fix it, then it's time for a go-around.

This free advice is worth what you paid for it, and your mileage may vary.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

And if you have an engine failure while two miles out on final, the FAA recommends you accept the off airport landing?

I'm sure Ron will jump in here with the statistics (more risk of an overrun than an engine failure in the pattern), but...

IMHO, if you're flying a wider pattern that would allow for a stabilized approach, you may not be able to make the runway if the engine fails, but you will be able to make the field or at least one of the cleared-out areas that you'll find under most final approach paths. Do you really fly high enough on downwind to make the runway?

Single engine IFR comes with a bunch of additional risks, one of which is precisely this vulnerability, but you can adapt even then with extra speed on final if you and the airplane can shed it when the runway is made (think a slip or speed brakes or holding flaps until the runway is in sight).

I've been practicing this exact technique lately, even VFR: 120 knots to 500 AGL on final, on the ILS or VASI glideslope. Why? Well, ATC asked for best forward speed on an ILS a couple months ago, and I didn't do as well as I thought I should have. Last time, I actually did so well when I pulled power at 500 AGL that I had to add power to make the runway! (This was in the draggy 182 with 40 degrees of barn-door flaps extended as soon as I hit the white arc... YRMV.)

 

[JRitt]

I had that problem once from another pilot. I just reached over and unplugged his head set (I can reach them all from my seat)

 

[Everskyward]

I just didn't know he was going to be my wife in the air.

You could start out by saying, "If I had wanted a back seat driver I would have brought my mother-in-law!" (or husband, wife, whatever is appropriate).

Anyone else have to deal with a back seat pilot (NOT A CFI mind you)?

It's even worse when it's someone with whom you are have a personal relationship.

 

[spiderweb]

I don't think the FAA is recommending flying wide patterns. It seems to me what they are recommending is flying a power-on stabilized approach, and not recommending slipping every single time on final as an SOP. My initial response was to stress that last point.

I feel everyone needs to know how to perform a slip, but that slipping on final every time is not the way to go, if you aren't in a glider. That's not the same as flying a tight pattern to guard against engine failure.

I don't need to worry so much in the C172, but if I lose an engine in the TB-20, I want to be VERY close to the runway!

And if you have an engine failure while two miles out on final, the FAA recommends you accept the off airport landing? Wish they'd pay out if that happens. What the FAA suggests makes sense in transport and multiengine airplanes, where there is either a hyper-reliable single engine (turboprop) or multiple engines, because the risk of landing off airport is less than the risks that may come with an unstabilized approach in these kinds of airplanes.

For airplanes still flying with single piston engines, it's probably better to make the approach so that a powerplant failure doesn't result in undue hazard to people or property on the ground (gee I think that's a FAR somewhere), and that generally means flying the approach so that you can glide to a landing, at least when VFR. Single engine IFR comes with a bunch of additional risks, one of which is precisely this vulnerability, but you can adapt even then with extra speed on final if you and the airplane can shed it when the runway is made (think a slip or speed brakes or holding flaps until the runway is in sight).

In the end, it's all up to individual pilot judgement. I tend to fly VFR patterns in such a way that I can make the runway if the engine fails. But if I'm too high and/or fast on final and a brief slip won't fix it, then it's time for a go-around.

This free advice is worth what you paid for it, and your mileage may vary.

 

[tonycondon]

And if you have an engine failure while two miles out on final, the FAA recommends you accept the off airport landing? Wish they'd pay out if that happens. What the FAA suggests makes sense in transport and multiengine airplanes, where there is either a hyper-reliable single engine (turboprop) or multiple engines, because the risk of landing off airport is less than the risks that may come with an unstabilized approach in these kinds of airplanes.

For airplanes still flying with single piston engines, it's probably better to make the approach so that a powerplant failure doesn't result in undue hazard to people or property on the ground (gee I think that's a FAR somewhere), and that generally means flying the approach so that you can glide to a landing, at least when VFR. Single engine IFR comes with a bunch of additional risks, one of which is precisely this vulnerability, but you can adapt even then with extra speed on final if you and the airplane can shed it when the runway is made (think a slip or speed brakes or holding flaps until the runway is in sight).

In the end, it's all up to individual pilot judgement. I tend to fly VFR patterns in such a way that I can make the runway if the engine fails. But if I'm too high and/or fast on final and a brief slip won't fix it, then it's time for a go-around.

This free advice is worth what you paid for it, and your mileage may vary.

Amen! I wonder if there is any correlation with overshooting and flying a power on stabilized approach or a power off stabilized approach.

 

[AirBaker]

That was going to me my suggestion. If you do not have that feature. UPGRADE!

Pilot isolate then tell him you keep a 'sterile cockpit' and he can always debrief you on the ground.