Babar Suleman and his son...

[timwinters]

Predictable. Another poster here even called it. He was right.

What did he call? Do you have an NTSB report detailing what happened that the rest of us aren't privy to?

Thus what induced them to make the ill-fated flight? My guess would be go-fever. With a self-imposed 30-day goal the pressure to keep moving must have been enormous.

They already blew that goal due to food poisoning at an earlier stop and the subsequent delay while they recovered. There was no get-there-itis. You might want to actually read some of the articles outlining the details of the trip before speculating.

I honestly don't want to demean your friend or speak ill of the dead. But if we don't learn from them they will have died in vain.

I'm wondering what you expect to learn when you know no facts. You research things better before teaching them in class...

I hope.

Oh, and I flew today, buzzed my main farm, wifey got a pretty good shot, I'll post it later, and, no, you won't be reading about me in tomorrow's papers.

 

[steingar]

They already blew that goal due to food poisoning at an earlier stop and the subsequent delay while they recovered. There was no get-there-itis. You might want to actually read some of the articles outlining the details of the trip before speculating.

Then you indeed have my apologies. I have not been through every communication these stalwart fellows ever sent out.

Still, for whatever reason taking off into darkness over water is a horrible idea for a relatively low time pilot. Just making a difficult task that much more so.

 

[weilke]

Still, for whatever reason taking off into darkness over water is a horrible idea for a relatively low time pilot. Just making a difficult task that much more so.

Babar was not a low-time pilot. He had been flying a Saratoga and a FIKI-Baron around the great lakes for many years.

His planned route was:

NFFN(Nadi) - NSTU(Pago Pago)
NSTU(Pago Pago) - PLCH(Christmas Island, Kiribati)
PLCH(Christmas Island, Kiribati) - PHKO (Kona, Hawaii)
PHKO(Kona, Hawaii) - KMHR(Mather, California)


Pago Pago to Kiribati is 1258nm great circle, or about 9hrs at 160kts. Lots of good reasons to take off at 11pm for an overnight flight with a 2-man crew, most likely weather/convection. They did have 280gal fuel capacity available and anticipated to need overweight permits for 4-7 legs of the trip. That particular leg was probably not one of them (144 fuel required, + 32 reserve = 1056lbs of fuel). God knows why they went down, but a night-time departure alone should not be the problem.

 

[Wheels]

According to one news report, their next stop was to be on Kiribati which is about halfway between Samoa and Hawaii.

There were apparently issues with getting fuel in Kiribati. The following is a tweet that Haris sent out on the 20th.

BonanzaBoi @worldrounder

No fuel in Kiritimati, going from New Caledonia to Pago Pago, then direct Hawaii. That's about 21 hours of flying in two days.
4:29 PM - 20 Jul 2014 New Caledonia, New Caledonia

 

[weilke]

There were apparently issues with getting fuel in Kiribati. The following is a tweet that Haris sent out of the 20th.

A couple of weeks ago he was looking for someone who could stage 4 barrels of 100LL for him on Kiribati.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

So if empty weight is 2400, at full fuel, that puts them at roughly 4100 lbs before crew and gear. That's a bunch for a Bo.

Maybe the combination of a black hole departure and being at the edge of the envelope rose up to smite them.

Tragic no matter what the cause.

 

[weilke]

So if empty weight is 2400, at full fuel, that puts them at roughly 4100 lbs before crew and gear. That's a bunch for a Bo.

Mtow 4000lbs. They anticipated to be 20% over at full fuel.

Had they run off the end of a runway, yes weight would be the first thought. 20miles out, less likely.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

Except the airplane he was flying that night, if they had full fuel, was going to be slower, have less climb and stall at a higher speed than the one he was flying up to that point, maybe by a fairly wide margin.

I wonder how many hours either of them had flying that airplane at 4800lbs.

 

[skynewbie]

Very sad news indeed. I'm wondering what caused them to crash whether it be fuel contamination that led to engine failure or what.

 

[Unregistered]

If you could fly around the world(country, state or airport pattern) with your 17 year old kid would you? Thought so. Never mind all the record/fundraising stuff that stuff is incidental to going on a flying adventure with your kid.

 

[Dav8or]

They already blew that goal due to food poisoning at an earlier stop and the subsequent delay while they recovered. There was no get-there-itis. You might want to actually read some of the articles outlining the details of the trip before speculating.

Then why fly at night??? Crossing the planet's oceans is hazardous enough in a single engine plane, but compounding that danger by flying at night boxed them into a corner with everything riding on that engine out front and every other system on the plane to function normally. You would think that a guy that had already experienced a forced landing would recognize our little airplanes are fallible and be a bit more conservative in the planning. The odds of surviving a night ditching in the middle of nowhere, even with formal training, have to be very, very poor.

Now, I guess nobody knows yet why they came to grief, but you have to believe that they got a good weather briefing and had some sort of weather gear with them, so it's not likely Mother Nature swatted them out of the sky. We know that one of the pilots was an experienced IFR pilot and the other was freshly minted, so his chops were likely pretty good. I doubt spacial disorientation is to blame and besides, I bet they had an auto pilot too. Maybe they loaded up with ice, but I'm guessing it's pretty warm over there and they should have been able to get low enough to melt any ice. There not likely any angry Russian separatists around either, so that leaves the most likely culprit to be mechanical failure.

I don't think they were foolish for making the trip attempt at all. If they really wanted to do it, then go for it and except the risks as they did. On the other hand I don't particularly admire what they attempted either. It would have proven nothing and the only accomplishment would have been to raise some money for charity, but is that what this was really all about? It is what it is. They did what they did and it didn't work out. Really not much to learn from this one, it's just a really bad ending to great personal story.

RIP fellow aviators. Perhaps now they are free to explore the universe. Prayers to the family and friends, they are the ones that bare the brunt.

 

[dans2992]

Actually, I believe the stats indicate that the majority of ditching are survivable.

At night, overwater, I'd imagine the landing light is all you'd need to flare. You don't really need to "pick a spot" they're pretty much all the same.

 

[weilke]

Then why fly at night??? Crossing the planet's oceans is hazardous enough in a single engine plane, but compounding that danger by flying at night boxed them into a corner with everything riding on that engine out front and every other system on the plane to function normally.

If they were indeed planning on a 16hr max-range leg from Pago Pago to Hawaii, you either have to take off at night or land at night. I would rather take off at night.

 

[Fearless Tower]

If they were indeed planning on a 16hr max-range leg from Pago Pago to Hawaii, you either have to take off at night or land at night. I would rather take off at night.

Me too. Especially at an unfamiliar airport.

 

[BG305]

Ok, I'm new to aviation so take it easy. If this plane took off a bit over weight due to extra fuel to make the long leg. If the engine gives out a few minutes after take off. What kind of "glide rate" would they have and what is the probability of a survivable crash landing?

 

[Jim Logajan]

For some perspective I suggest readers of this thread might find it informative to read "Three Eight Charlie" by Jerrie Mock. It was out of print for years but was republished this year, the 50th anniversary of her flight, both in print form and as a Kindle book; see http://www.38charlie.com

 

[Eddie Gould]

Dear aviators, after reading the comments on here, good and bad, I felt it neccessary to sign up for PoA to be able to put right the facts to stop the continued specualtions I am seeing everywhere; some so called facts fuelled by the world's media and the rest by speculation.
Why am I privvy to these facts?
I am the last person (besides the people at the airport on Pago Pago) who Babar talked to and was on shift for his departure. I am the owner of the flight support company who were tasked with supporting the flight around the world...obtaining permits, clearances, handling, fuel and hotac.
I worked with Babar personally on the planning since late last summer and if you had seen the original routeing he proposed back then compared to the one he eventually took then you will see that many changes had to be made for one reason or another.
We had advised Babar to take the longer but safer route (more places to find avgas) through Japan and Alaska but the previous successes of other circumnavigators like CarolAnn Garratt and Matt Guthmiller did give Babar the incentive to go with the Pacific island route.
One of the common themes in this thread is about the range to Hawaii and the thought that he was also going to make a landing in Kiribati.
This is the truth of the matter...
Kiribati was always on the planned route. But right up to their departure from Noumea there was no evidence of avgas being available at Christmas Island. The authorities at PLCH need arresting because for 3 weeks continuous phone calls and countless emails, not one person thought it decent enough to reply or pick up the phone.
The only information we had to go on was from passing aviators who had visited the island recently (and that is within the last 6 months) all of whom used JetA1 but either said 'no avgas there' or 'I think we saw some barells of avgas on site'...not the best info to decide on whether a flight should make a stop there or not.
We did find avgas at Tarawa, another Kiribati island but by the time we received this information the guys had flown to Pago Pago and this made a flight to Tarawa unfeasible.
For two days we discussed weather and range whilst still waiting for contact to be made with PLCH. I personally found the pilots ideal accomodation and they were thoroughly enjoying their stay on Pago Pago. In fact, 12 hours before departure, Babar told me that he thought they would be stuck there for another 2 - 3 days. This was after checking weather forecasts and fuel - range computations.
Another conversation was about the need to shed weight; they had accumulated a fair weight of souvenirs; and I expect this happened with maybe the souvenirs being packaged up and sent by carrier to their home. But this is speculation...but the idea of shedding weight was in their thoughts.
The aircraft had performed faultlessly for the whole of the flight so far and routine maintenance and hours checks were made by FAA authorised engineers along the way.
In answer to a previous comment...they had made the flight from Goose Bay to Reykjavik at near max weight and yes, they do have the documentation for an overweight ferry.
So why would they have a nightime departure?
This had already been discussed between us and one person had the right answer...it was so they would arrive in Hawaii during daylight hours, and also be abeam Kiribati in daylight if they needed to divert.
There was no 'suspicion' in the night time departure.
What does mystify us is that they actually departed. My last conversation, as I said, was about the fact they may stay in Pago for another 2 days at least. With this knowledge I went to bed...that was because of the time differences...and Babar said he and Haris were off to explore the island.
When I cam back on shift I checked my emails and found a Flight Plan that had been filed for a departure on the same evening that they had said they were going to explore the island. This was a shock to me, so I quickly fired up the company tracker (one that allows communication between us and the pilot) and found the aircraft had started up and was taxying.
I received the automatic ping for a departure and it was timed at 0856Z (2156 local).
The next ping stated they were at 97ft and doing 77 knts. The tracker showed them over the end of the runway on the runway heading in a SW direction.
Then there was no update. I started sending messages to the crew to see if there was a problem but got no answer.
After 10 minutes I received the automatic signal that said the tracker was unable to transmit...but there was no emergency signal which it can send out.
I waited a while and then contacted the airport; which is uncontrolled and the airport ground crew would have had to be asked to be on duty...and it was our handler who did stay up for the departure.
The reply came within 45 minutes of departure that the aircraft appeared to have gone into the sea just after Take Off. Then a frantic couple of hours ensued in which the following information came to light...and these are the facts...
The aircraft took off on runway heading. It then made a turn to port and hit the sea about a mile off shore and SE of the airport. The weather was reportedly windy and the sea was choppy.
Haris's body was found at around 0115 local by the local rescue services...which are not close to being as organised or well equipped as the US versions.
The next real information came last night when a USCG C130 spotted wreckage, but not the fuselage or wings. The media and others have reported 'plane found' and this is not true.
The position has been marked and triangulated with an eyewitness report and the tracker information. The tides have been taken into consideration and when a diving team arrives they will then have somewhere to search.
Until an official report is given from the people at the scene (not media or agencies half way around the wordl) then all other information should be classed as speculation.
To clarify the Kiribati query. The flight plan submitted was for a continuous flight to Hawaii. PLCH was added as an alternative and would have been used if weather or technical problems made it neccessary.
If this had happened then it would have had to be an emergency landing as no one on Kiribati knew they were coming and as i said earlier, they should all be prosecuted for the way they run an airport.
But of course, this was never to be used as the aircraft perished within a mile of take off from NSTU.
We now await further information from the people at the scene and are working wth the family to get members to Pago for the repatriation of the body(s). The search continues for the airframe and Babar.
Personally, I had become great friends with both of them and was in contact with them many times a day for the whole of their flight and had the pleasure to show them the sights of Cairo and spend 3 happy days laughing and joking wth two of the most professional pilots I have had the pleasure to have worked with...and I have worked with many so called more experienced pilots who didn't have the dedication to planning that Babar and Haris had. They will be sorely missed.

 

[Henning]

I was wondering about that 'last leg' from American Samoa. The longest leg around the world is LA to Honolulu at 2150nm. You can do much shorter legs on a longer route, however getting the fuel cached is expensive and uncertain. Reliably on 100LL though, crossing the Pacific, you're gonna hit Hawaii. After I figured how much fuel they would have to tanker to make it from American Samoa home, or even to US mainland soil, I figured it was another typical in accuracy in reporting.

 

[Henning]

Hi Eddie, welcome and thanks for bringing the facts to light, sorry for the loss. I am curious, how much fuel did they tank?

 

[sourdough44]

Dear aviators, after reading the comments on here, good and bad, I felt it neccessary to sign up for PoA to be able to put right the facts to stop the continued specualtions I am seeing everywhere; some so called facts fuelled by the world's media and the rest by speculation.
Why am I privvy to these facts?
I am the last person (besides the people at the airport on Pago Pago) who Babar talked to and was on shift for his departure. I am the owner of the flight support company who were tasked with supporting the flight around the world...obtaining permits, clearances, handling, fuel and hotac.
I worked with Babar personally on the planning since late last summer and if you had seen the original routeing he proposed back then compared to the one he eventually took then you will see that many changes had to be made for one reason or another.
We had advised Babar to take the longer but safer route (more places to find avgas) through Japan and Alaska but the previous successes of other circumnavigators like CarolAnn Garratt and Matt Guthmiller did give Babar the incentive to go with the Pacific island route.
One of the common themes in this thread is about the range to Hawaii and the thought that he was also going to make a landing in Kiribati.
This is the truth of the matter...
Kiribati was always on the planned route. But right up to their departure from Noumea there was no evidence of avgas being available at Christmas Island. The authorities at PLCH need arresting because for 3 weeks continuous phone calls and countless emails, not one person thought it decent enough to reply or pick up the phone.
The only information we had to go on was from passing aviators who had visited the island recently (and that is within the last 6 months) all of whom used JetA1 but either said 'no avgas there' or 'I think we saw some barells of avgas on site'...not the best info to decide on whether a flight should make a stop there or not.
We did find avgas at Tarawa, another Kiribati island but by the time we received this information the guys had flown to Pago Pago and this made a flight to Tarawa unfeasible.
For two days we discussed weather and range whilst still waiting for contact to be made with PLCH. I personally found the pilots ideal accomodation and they were thoroughly enjoying their stay on Pago Pago. In fact, 12 hours before departure, Babar told me that he thought they would be stuck there for another 2 - 3 days. This was after checking weather forecasts and fuel - range computations.
Another conversation was about the need to shed weight; they had accumulated a fair weight of souvenirs; and I expect this happened with maybe the souvenirs being packaged up and sent by carrier to their home. But this is speculation...but the idea of shedding weight was in their thoughts.
The aircraft had performed faultlessly for the whole of the flight so far and routine maintenance and hours checks were made by FAA authorised engineers along the way.
In answer to a previous comment...they had made the flight from Goose Bay to Reykjavik at near max weight and yes, they do have the documentation for an overweight ferry.
So why would they have a nightime departure?
This had already been discussed between us and one person had the right answer...it was so they would arrive in Hawaii during daylight hours, and also be abeam Kiribati in daylight if they needed to divert.
There was no 'suspicion' in the night time departure.
What does mystify us is that they actually departed. My last conversation, as I said, was about the fact they may stay in Pago for another 2 days at least. With this knowledge I went to bed...that was because of the time differences...and Babar said he and Haris were off to explore the island.
When I cam back on shift I checked my emails and found a Flight Plan that had been filed for a departure on the same evening that they had said they were going to explore the island. This was a shock to me, so I quickly fired up the company tracker (one that allows communication between us and the pilot) and found the aircraft had started up and was taxying.
I received the automatic ping for a departure and it was timed at 0856Z (2156 local).
The next ping stated they were at 97ft and doing 77 knts. The tracker showed them over the end of the runway on the runway heading in a SW direction.
Then there was no update. I started sending messages to the crew to see if there was a problem but got no answer.
After 10 minutes I received the automatic signal that said the tracker was unable to transmit...but there was no emergency signal which it can send out.
I waited a while and then contacted the airport; which is uncontrolled and the airport ground crew would have had to be asked to be on duty...and it was our handler who did stay up for the departure.
The reply came within 45 minutes of departure that the aircraft appeared to have gone into the sea just after Take Off. Then a frantic couple of hours ensued in which the following information came to light...and these are the facts...
The aircraft took off on runway heading. It then made a turn to port and hit the sea about a mile off shore and SE of the airport. The weather was reportedly windy and the sea was choppy.
Haris's body was found at around 0115 local by the local rescue services...which are not close to being as organised or well equipped as the US versions.
The next real information came last night when a USCG C130 spotted wreckage, but not the fuselage or wings. The media and others have reported 'plane found' and this is not true.
The position has been marked and triangulated with an eyewitness report and the tracker information. The tides have been taken into consideration and when a diving team arrives they will then have somewhere to search.
Until an official report is given from the people at the scene (not media or agencies half way around the wordl) then all other information should be classed as speculation.
To clarify the Kiribati query. The flight plan submitted was for a continuous flight to Hawaii. PLCH was added as an alternative and would have been used if weather or technical problems made it neccessary.
If this had happened then it would have had to be an emergency landing as no one on Kiribati knew they were coming and as i said earlier, they should all be prosecuted for the way they run an airport.
But of course, this was never to be used as the aircraft perished within a mile of take off from NSTU.
We now await further information from the people at the scene and are working wth the family to get members to Pago for the repatriation of the body(s). The search continues for the airframe and Babar.
Personally, I had become great friends with both of them and was in contact with them many times a day for the whole of their flight and had the pleasure to show them the sights of Cairo and spend 3 happy days laughing and joking wth two of the most professional pilots I have had the pleasure to have worked with...and I have worked with many so called more experienced pilots who didn't have the dedication to planning that Babar and Haris had. They will be sorely missed.

Thanks for the informative update and clarification. Very sorry about the outcome.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

Thank you for the facts. It must be very tough for all involved, and your taking the time to correct the record is appreciated.

Strong low-level winds add yet another dimension.

 

[steingar]

Dear aviators, after reading the comments on here, good and bad, I felt it neccessary to sign up for PoA to be able to put right the facts to stop the continued specualtions I am seeing everywhere; some so called facts fuelled by the world's media and the rest by speculation.

Thank you so much for your explanation, welcome to POA and of course, huge condolences. These fellows sounded like really good guys, and I find myself mistaken in my own comments. Indeed it makes are more sense to depart in darkness than arrive.

 

[gismo]

Dear aviators, after reading the comments on here, good and bad, I felt it neccessary to sign up for PoA to be able to put right the facts to stop the continued specualtions I am seeing everywhere; some so called facts fuelled by the world's media and the rest by speculation.

Eddie, I took the liberty of transplanting your post to BeechTalk.com, the forum where Babar "hung out" and had many friends (both online and in person). Thanks for providing this information. The aviation community and world at large lost a good man and his son.

 

[weilke]

Ok, I'm new to aviation so take it easy. If this plane took off a bit over weight due to extra fuel to make the long leg. If the engine gives out a few minutes after take off. What kind of "glide rate" would they have and what is the probability of a survivable crash landing?

The glide ratio remains pretty much the same, it is attained at a higher airspeed. Best glide, Vx Vy are all at slightly higher speeds.

 

[vince]

Me too. Especially at an unfamiliar airport.

You should think a little more through all the risks. Taking off at night versus landing at night in this case is more risky. This is when the overloaded plane is most stressed and you have fewest options. You won't have the altitude to prepare for the landing (make sure you got the emergency equipment ready to go, etc). If you have an issue during landing at night you are at the end of the flight with a much lighter plane and likely more altitude to play with.

In this day of GPS's, landing at an unfamiliar airport is no longer a problem. As long as you know the orientation and can turn on the lights for the runway what is the issue?

I would definitely rather land in the dark on a trip like this than take off in the dark.

 

[Alexb2000]

You should think a little more through all the risks. Taking off at night versus landing at night in this case is more risky. This is when the overloaded plane is most stressed and you have fewest options. You won't have the altitude to prepare for the landing (make sure you got the emergency equipment ready to go, etc). If you have an issue during landing at night you are at the end of the flight with a much lighter plane and likely more altitude to play with.

In this day of GPS's, landing at an unfamiliar airport is no longer a problem. As long as you know the orientation and can turn on the lights for the runway what is the issue?

I would definitely rather land in the dark on a trip like this than take off in the dark.

Are you a ferry pilot?

 

[BG305]

The glide ratio remains pretty much the same, it is attained at a higher airspeed. Best glide, Vx Vy are all at slightly higher speeds.

So with the facts that Arcturas put up that they ditched a mile off shore what kind of altitude would they have been at?

 

[James331]

You should think a little more through all the risks. Taking off at night versus landing at night in this case is more risky. This is when the overloaded plane is most stressed and you have fewest options. You won't have the altitude to prepare for the landing (make sure you got the emergency equipment ready to go, etc). If you have an issue during landing at night you are at the end of the flight with a much lighter plane and likely more altitude to play with.

In this day of GPS's, landing at an unfamiliar airport is no longer a problem. As long as you know the orientation and can turn on the lights for the runway what is the issue?

I would definitely rather land in the dark on a trip like this than take off in the dark.

Less load and more altitude changes the game. Also what's the point of that support system when you don't keep them in the loop and stray from your plans?

I'd rather deal with a night IAP (especially with the approaches available in HI) compared to a, first ever, over gross take off over water, and outside of North American class services (SAR etc).

 

[weilke]

So with the facts that Arcturas put up that they ditched a mile off shore what kind of altitude would they have been at?

Not much, couple of 100ft at max.

The pictures on the Samoa News facebook page show the raft still in its valise and they report that Harris was found still strapped in his seat. Looks like they hit the water pretty hard, not in a controlled ditching.

 

[Alexb2000]

Not much, couple of 100ft at max.

The pictures on the Samoa News facebook page show the raft still in its valise and they report that Harris was found still strapped in his seat. Looks like they hit the water pretty hard, not in a controlled ditching.

If we take Eddies information above they were at the end of runway 23 at 97 MSL when the last ping occurred. I don't know how accurate those devices are for altitude, but 23 is 10,000' long at an elevation of 32'. Seems like a very slow rate of climb. Then a left turn out to the SW over the water that couldn't have been done very high. Not much margin for error.
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1408/05018AD.PDF

 

[gismo]

If we take Eddies information above they were at the end of runway 23 at 97 MSL when the last ping occurred. I don't know how accurate those devices are for altitude, but 23 is 10,000' long at an elevation of 32'. Seems like a very slow rate of climb. Then a left turn out to the SW over the water that couldn't have been done very high. Not much margin for error.
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1408/05018AD.PDF

Nope. And ditching in the dark from a few hundred MSL isn't going to be easy. I'd bet that if I had 10 chances to pull that off I might survive one (and I'm commercial ASES rated). There are additional risks involved in a mission like this but I'm pretty certain that Babar was familiar with them and accepted them as part of the challenge with the knowledge that the odds of an engine failure at that worst possible instant were pretty small.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

If we take Eddies information above they were at the end of runway 23 at 97 MSL when the last ping occurred. I don't know how accurate those devices are for altitude, but 23 is 10,000' long at an elevation of 32'. Seems like a very slow rate of climb. Then a left turn out to the SW over the water that couldn't have been done very high. Not much margin for error.
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1408/05018AD.PDF

METAR at time of departure shows winds 340 at 15 gusting to 26. It would appear these guys were taking off in a heavy airplane with a slightly quartering tailwind. Not a problem in a normally laden plane. A left turn would have given them a gusty tailwind, low, heavy and slow.

Maybe wind shear, or a downdraft they couldn't climb out of.

 

[Fearless Tower]

You should think a little more through all the risks. Taking off at night versus landing at night in this case is more risky. This is when the overloaded plane is most stressed and you have fewest options. You won't have the altitude to prepare for the landing (make sure you got the emergency equipment ready to go, etc). If you have an issue during landing at night you are at the end of the flight with a much lighter plane and likely more altitude to play with.



In this day of GPS's, landing at an unfamiliar airport is no longer a problem. As long as you know the orientation and can turn on the lights for the runway what is the issue?



I would definitely rather land in the dark on a trip like this than take off in the dark.

You are only looking at it from one angle (weight) and that is pretty short- sighted. And I do have experience taking off and landing at night over water from unfamiliar airports in Hawaii. If given a one or the other option, I would still take the daylight arrival/night departure.

 

[James331]

, I would still take the daylight arrival/night departure.

Apparently that option did not turn out well.

Id have no issue just shooting the ILS into HI at night, a ILS is a ILS, be it over water, grass, sand, day or night.

Heck he probably had a coupled A/P that could have shot it for him.

 

[gismo]

You are only looking at it from one angle (weight) and that is pretty short- sighted. And I do have experience taking off and landing at night over water from unfamiliar airports in Hawaii. If given a one or the other option, I would still take the daylight arrival/night departure.

Agreed. And it's not just the lack of daylight either, any pilot is going to be a lot sharper shortly after takeoff than after 14 hours of flying.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

What is the OAT normally this time of year at that airport? 85-90f? At that weight you might choose night for lower DA as well.

 

[James331]

Heck in that case mail all the crap they bought home and maybe put the kid on a plane to HI, that probably would fix the performance problem.

OR, take the easier route to begin with and not have to contend with this leg.

 

[BG305]

If we take Eddies information above they were at the end of runway 23 at 97 MSL when the last ping occurred. I don't know how accurate those devices are for altitude, but 23 is 10,000' long at an elevation of 32'. Seems like a very slow rate of climb. Then a left turn out to the SW over the water that couldn't have been done very high. Not much margin for error.
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1408/05018AD.PDF

METAR at time of departure shows winds 340 at 15 gusting to 26. It would appear these guys were taking off in a heavy airplane with a slightly quartering tailwind. Not a problem in a normally laden plane. A left turn would have given them a gusty tailwind, low, heavy and slow.

Maybe wind shear, or a downdraft they couldn't climb out of.

This is correct and temp showed 82*.

 

[weilke]

I have not taken off at gross at night, one of my partners prefers to do it for his trips to the west coast. Should I tell him not to do it as someone on the internets told me that this is too dangerous ?

 

[Fearless Tower]

Apparently that option did not turn out well.



Id have no issue just shooting the ILS into HI at night, a ILS is a ILS, be it over water, grass, sand, day or night.



Heck he probably had a coupled A/P that could have shot it for him.

Right now we have absolutely zero indication that time of day had anything to do with it.

Look, a trip like this has risks no matter which way you slice it. All I am saying is that I can see his logic of choosing a night departure over a night arrival.