Avionics question about upgrade

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Riceyoung

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Cliff
I am looking on doing an avionics upgrade in a 1983 Piper Saratoga. I have done quite a bit of looking, but to make sure I am getting a good deal I thought I let you know what I am wanting to get done and see if anyone has done anything close and how much I should expect to pay. I am looking at putting in a
GTN 750
Aspen with AE100 auto pilot interface
GDL 88
340 Audio panel
327 Transponder
JPI 830
I am only leaving in the KX155 and the KFC 200 autopilot
I would be trading in an ADF, King audio panel, king digital transponder, King HSI and the original King flight director artifical horizon. Also if someone has a suggestion for a better set up, please let me know.
 
That will be a good IFR panel, with ADS-B out.

One suggestion, look at PS Engineering's audio panels, like their new model 450 that makes different sources sound like they are coming from different directions.

http://www.ps-engineering.com/PMA450.shtml

I am replacing my Garmin 340 with one of these. A plus is that it has a 5 Volt USB accessory outlet that I can use to power my iPad.

OTOH, if you are set on the Garmin audio panel, there is nothing wrong with it, and you can probably get a good used one, due to people who are upgrading.
 
I'd suggest the PS Engineering PMA8000BT in place of the GMA340 - it is just a better audio panel for the same money, especially the intercom muting.

Other than that, you've described a dream panel!
 
Were you a /G WAAS before?

The JPI is a good upgrade, everything else is cosmetics if you were WAAS before.

Realistically, WAAS with ILS, autopilot with vnav and GPSS, HSI or EHSI, set so you can shoot a LPV or ILS coupled to a coupled miss, engine MGMT system.

That's all you need. Everything else is cosmetics or chasing the joneses.
 
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James331 said:
Were you a /G WAAS before?

The JPI is a good upgrade, everything else is cosmetics if you were WAAS before.

Realistically, WAAS with ILS, autopilot with vnav and GPSS, HSI or EHSI, set so you can shoot a LPV or ILS coupled to a coupled miss, engine MGMT system.

That's all you need. Everything else is cosmetics or chasing the joneses.
Click to expand...

It was a non waas unit. The nice thing about the aspen is it has the built in GPSS. Also my last plane had a 530W. I really like the bigger screen.
 
If I had the scratch, I'd be chasing the Joneses anyhow!
 
SCCutler said:
If I had the scratch, I'd be chasing the Joneses anyhow!
Click to expand...

Overrated, and I can put my money to better use.

I'm running a garmin 530/430/330 Sandel EHSI and a stec with GPSS. I can shoot any approach, I have traffic, great situational awareness, nothing else needed.

I could blow big bucks going glass, touch screen etc...but for what? I wouldn't add to my capabilities one bit, I'd rather pour that money into my gas tanks over time, or save it for a future business opportunity.
 
Riceyoung said:
It was a non waas unit. The nice thing about the aspen is it has the built in GPSS. Also my last plane had a 530W. I really like the bigger screen.
Click to expand...

What's the price difference for just doing a WAAS and GPSS upgrade?
 
Really, I was joking. I have a pretty good panel, 430W, King HSI, electric and air redundant DG and AI, JPI engine monitoring and fuel computer.

The bling stuff is appealing, though, and if my compass system ever failed hard, I'd be all, "Mark, get me an Aspen, dude." Then I'd get GPSS in the mix, and lose the air system.

No rush, though.

But I was almost glad that my Narco CP136 audio panel failed, as the PS Engineering one is so transcendently better.
 
Agree with the above, PMA8000BT over the 340 for sure. It's the best sounding audio panel I've heard yet and the Bluetooth works great.
 
I have a similar setup (650, Aspen 2000, JPI830, PSE 8000BT connected to an STEC 60-2). Make sure they hook up your fuel flow to the GPS.

You should be able to get digital input from the Aspen to the 327 eliminating any need for a blind encoder. The GDL-88 will be limited to the 750 but will support their new Connext hardware. Not sure you are a Garmin Pilot user, but you can buy the FlightStream 201 product and be able to download your Flightplan from GP to the 750. It will also allow you to display the GDL-88 ADS-B data on your iPad using Garmin Pilot.

Not sure if the FlightStream has been released, but worth checking out.
 
I would skip the gdm 88 and go with a garmin 330 es transponder for my dash,save a few bucks.
 
You might consider EI's MVP-50P instead of JPI's unit.

I've read a lot of horror stories over the years about JPI's customer service when things go wrong. OTOH, the exact opposite is true of EI. I've read about, and experienced personally, wonderful customer service including components being replaced at no charge well beyond the warranty period.

Garmin is another JPI. Horrible customer service. Unfortunately, in their case, there's not much of an option.
 
frfly172 said:
I would skip the gdm 88 and go with a garmin 330 es transponder for my dash,save a few bucks.
Click to expand...

But that won't provide any information back to the pilot. The GDL88 will display the ADS-B weather and traffic data on his GTN750. It would be silly to comply with ADS-B out and not take advantage of ADS-B in.
 
SCCutler said:
I'd suggest the PS Engineering PMA8000BT in place of the GMA340 - it is just a better audio panel for the same money, especially the intercom muting.

Other than that, you've described a dream panel!
Click to expand...

That is the audio panel our club chose on our major panel upgrade. We are very happy with the selection.

Final pricing for all that was done was just shy of 43 AMU's.
 

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Another thumbs up here for the PS Engineering 8000BT audio panel. I put one of these in my plane a year ago and love it. I have heard a lot of complaints with the Garmin audio panel.
 
I just bought a AA5B with kln 90b and klx 135a. Two weeks later the 90b failed so now I am looking into an upgrade. If I have to bite the bullet I want the most bang for the buck so I am looking at the GTN 650. This allows me to get rid of the 135a and gain a ton of capability. While the shop is in the panel I was thinking of replacing the intercom/comm panel with a Garmin 340? This is already a $12000 upgrade without the Garmin 340 so is there a comparably priced PS Engineering system that is better?
 
IMG_2479.JPG

One more plug for the PMA8000BT. Chose this over Garmin's top-of-the-line when upgrading avionics in late 2011. Had several hundred hours behind a PMA340 and like the PSE much better. One thing I do experience with it most of the time that I'm curious about, but haven't contacted Mike at PSE yet, is that most of the time when I get an audible alert (e.g. "traffic not available"), the announcement suddenly fades away during the last few syllables. Anyone have a thought on why this might be happening?

I'm intrigued by your decision to go with a GDL88 as your ADS-B out solution, saving money by getting a GTX327 over the GTX330/ES, which I installed in 2011 when first introduced. I have a Dual XGPS170, so getting TIS-B and FIS-B to my tablet is not a problem. Having it go directly to my GTN650 would be nice, but not critical. I would feel differently if I had the screen size of the GTN750. I do like TIS-A traffic, but in hindsight your equipment choices would have made sense for me since when Garmin figured out in mid-2012 that they needed a software upgrade to make the GTX330/ES ADS-B out in the U.S., along with needing to develop an STC and AML, they left my plane off the AML. I just checked, and I am on the AML for the GDL88 (as well as the GTN650). Garmin doesn't have a good answer for this omission. I hope they add the Bellanca 17-30A prior to 2020, as field approvals for things that require an STC are not automatically given.

Armed with the knowledge that I'm on the AML for the GDL88, I may poke Garmin (coincidentally, the name of my pet bear) again to see if there are any technical compliance similarities that could be used to hasten my addition to the GTX330/ES' ADS-B AML. Maybe a compromise solution is for them to pay to install the GDL88 in my aircraft. :)
 
Riceyoung said:
I am looking on doing an avionics upgrade in a 1983 Piper Saratoga. I have done quite a bit of looking, but to make sure I am getting a good deal I thought I let you know what I am wanting to get done and see if anyone has done anything close and how much I should expect to pay. I am looking at putting in a
GTN 750
Aspen with AE100 auto pilot interface
GDL 88
340 Audio panel
327 Transponder
JPI 830
I am only leaving in the KX155 and the KFC 200 autopilot
I would be trading in an ADF, King audio panel, king digital transponder, King HSI and the original King flight director artifical horizon. Also if someone has a suggestion for a better set up, please let me know.
Click to expand...

What about using the remote audio panel that puts it on the 750? Unless you just can't swing it, I would give a second thought to using a G-500, a lot more real estate, a lot more clarity.
 
Henning said:
What about using the remote audio panel that puts it on the 750? Unless you just can't swing it, I would give a second thought to using a G-500, a lot more real estate, a lot more clarity.
Click to expand...

I had to make some compromises in my install. I like the Garmin 500 I just do not have the budget for it. The same with the remote audio panel. It seems like a great idea but real estate is not a problem in the Toga.
 
I'm seeing about a $50k + upgrade.....is that about right? What's the current hull value? Planning on keeping it for many, many years?

You could sell and get a ridiculously upgraded plane for less. Let the previous owner take the hit.
 
Yeah, put the PSEngineering audio panel in.
There's no FREAKING WAY I'd ever put another Garmin in. They are not serviceable. Garmin has crappy turnaround time and no loaner provision on them. They were willing to leave me AOG for over a week (though the greedy bastards were quite willing to fedex me a new unit if I bought it outright).
 
How high can your toga fly? The GDL 88 is UAT-only and that will keep you out of A airspace after 2020. You may never go that high, but that is different than not being able to go up there. Just something to think about.

EDIT: I see from your other thread that you have a turbo. So you are in the same boat I am. I have a GTN 750 and have been looking at ADS-B out solutions. I had to jettison the GDL-88 idea because it is UAT-only which would clip my airplane out of Class A after 2020. That partially defeats the purpose of the turbo and limits the effective value of the airplane.

I am looking at probably the GTX-330ES or the remote-mounted -33ES. I'd consider other -out solutions but they have to include 1090ES.

As far as the "goodies" available on the UAT band, I've decided that my Stratus/FF combo will have to suffice for all of that unless someone comes up with a dual-band solution ASAP.

The current product offerings just don't consider the dilemma that owners of Class-A capable light singles are in.

Remember too that Garmin does not just make its WAAS GPS position available in standard format. It is a proprietary format that they could theoretically change at any time. I'm told by a contact in the STC biz that, for this reason, in order to use that GTN-750 as a legal WAAS position source, the ADS-B out box mfr has to pay Garmin a licensing fee in order to gain guaranteed access to that signal. That's not an issue for Garmin's own ADS-B solutions but it is a big deal for those manufactured by others.
 
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petrolero said:
How high can your toga fly? The GDL 88 is UAT-only and that will keep you out of A airspace after 2020. You may never go that high, but that is different than not being able to go up there. Just something to think about.

EDIT: I see from your other thread that you have a turbo. So you are in the same boat I am. I have a GTN 750 and have been looking at ADS-B out solutions. I had to jettison the GDL-88 idea because it is UAT-only which would clip my airplane out of Class A after 2020. That partially defeats the purpose of the turbo and limits the effective value of the airplane.

I am looking at probably the GTX-330ES or the remote-mounted -33ES. I'd consider other -out solutions but they have to include 1090ES.

As far as the "goodies" available on the UAT band, I've decided that my Stratus/FF combo will have to suffice for all of that unless someone comes up with a dual-band solution ASAP.

The current product offerings just don't consider the dilemma that owners of Class-A capable light singles are in.

Remember too that Garmin does not just make its WAAS GPS position available in standard format. It is a proprietary format that they could theoretically change at any time. I'm told by a contact in the STC biz that, for this reason, in order to use that GTN-750 as a legal WAAS position source, the ADS-B out box mfr has to pay Garmin a licensing fee in order to gain guaranteed access to that signal. That's not an issue for Garmin's own ADS-B solutions but it is a big deal for those manufactured by others.
Click to expand...

I did consider this that I will lose 2000 feet if I do the GDL 88, but since it is 5 years away, and only 2000 feet for me, I would rather have the traffic and weather on the 750 for now and I imagine that I will be able to add a cheaper solution for the 1090 in the future.
 
I have taken the advice of many and will be ditching the GMA 340 for the PMA 8000B. I have also decided to add the altitude preselect to the Aspen and would love any feed back on anyone who has installed or used it. I have also decided to add the new garmin Flight Stream 210 to the install. I am getting pretty excited to get the aircraft back with the upgrades installed.
 
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Sounds like a nice system. Did you hear when the Aspen ADS-B products will be available?
 
Riceyoung said:
I have taken the advice of many and will be ditching the GMA 340 for the PMA 8000B. I have also decided to add the altitude preselect to the Aspen and would love any feed back on anyone who has installed or used it. I have also decided to add the new garmin Flight Stream 210 to the install. I am getting pretty excited to get the aircraft back with the upgrades installed.
Click to expand...


Did you go with the 8000B or the 8000BT? The bluetooth capability on the BT is awesome for picking up telephone clearances through your headset. I think is is another $195 but worth it.

If you have Bluetooth headset, you probably won't need it, but I fly with a Halo and find the feature nice to have.

Be curious to hear your PIREP on the altitude preselect.
 
I have an A20 headset with Bluetooth to the phone and 2 Zulu headsets as well with Bluetooth, so I do not really need that feature. I am stoked to see how it all integrates together. With the Flightstream I think it will be great to be able to upload my flight plan right to the 750. It will in turn download the flight plan to the 696 I will have dash mounted. Make it so much easier to keep up with things in IFR instead of having to change all the devices.
 
Go with the BT on the audio panel... price delta isn't that much and you and your passengers will appreciate it.
 
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