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Greg Bockelman

Greg Bockelman

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Greg Bockelman
I have a basic (old) King Silver Crown avionics package in my airplane. While it is technically IFR certified, I really don't trust it enough to actually fly it in the IFR system. Here is what I have.

1) King KX170B. Serviceable. Seems to work just fine.
1) Michal 170B Digital slide in replacement for the King KX170B. It has issues.
1) King ADF, analog, It does not point.
1) King VFR GPS. Basically inop because the display has blank spots in it.
1) King Transponder with encoder. It works just fine, so far.
1) Audio Panel of some undetermined manufacture. Probably King. Works ok.

What I want to end up with is reliable communications with an approach capable GPS without breaking the bank. This is a budget operation here because if I have money to spend on the airplane, I really need to spend it on other things first, but if I can justify basic upgrades I will.

The issue with the Michal is that when I squelch out the engine noise, the range pretty much is down to less than 10 miles. There may be an avionics shop fix for that but I am not sure. Not that dual comm is an absolute necessity, it is just nice to have.

The ADF and VFR GPS can go. Everything else I can keep. So what I am looking for is the most economical way of getting an IFR GPS. That may mean a King KLN (?) 94 or a GPS comm like the Garmin 300XL.

So, given these parameters, what would you guys do? The Garmin 430/530 and the like are out of range budget wise, so lets not go there. :fingerwag:
 
Used KX-155 with 109 head with GS.
 
My answer to a similar question (anybody want a Garmin 100?) was to install a KLN-90B that I know how to operate with an output to a 496 for which I already have a WX subscription. I would bet a radio shop could give you a +/- answer on your radio in about 2 minutes.

Greg Bockelman said:
I have a basic (old) King Silver Crown avionics package in my airplane. While it is technically IFR certified, I really don't trust it enough to actually fly it in the IFR system. Here is what I have.

1) King KX170B. Serviceable. Seems to work just fine.
1) Michal 170B Digital slide in replacement for the King KX170B. It has issues.
1) King ADF, analog, It does not point.
1) King VFR GPS. Basically inop because the display has blank spots in it.
1) King Transponder with encoder. It works just fine, so far.
1) Audio Panel of some undetermined manufacture. Probably King. Works ok.

What I want to end up with is reliable communications with an approach capable GPS without breaking the bank. This is a budget operation here because if I have money to spend on the airplane, I really need to spend it on other things first, but if I can justify basic upgrades I will.

The issue with the Michal is that when I squelch out the engine noise, the range pretty much is down to less than 10 miles. There may be an avionics shop fix for that but I am not sure. Not that dual comm is an absolute necessity, it is just nice to have.

The ADF and VFR GPS can go. Everything else I can keep. So what I am looking for is the most economical way of getting an IFR GPS. That may mean a King KLN (?) 94 or a GPS comm like the Garmin 300XL.

So, given these parameters, what would you guys do? The Garmin 430/530 and the like are out of range budget wise, so lets not go there. :fingerwag:
Click to expand...
 
The 300XL would be an excellent choice, As I recall the only features the 430 has that the 300 does not is the VOR and a somewhat larger display.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Whatever issues the TKM Michel MX-170 has you can get it fixed/updated overhauled.
I have two.
Mine drive the VOR/GS/LOC and they work, not that I didn't have to sink money into the King convertor and such.

I haven't dealt with HIM in several years, but I got mine fixed for a flat $80.

TKM Michel
(480) 991-5351
(800) 233-4183

14811 N. 73rd. St.
Scottsdale AZ 85260
 
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GNC-300XL, refurbished, has always been my plan if I choose to get out of the 170 for something more IFR capable (but still old :D). That's coming from someone who loves all things Garmin and would love the 430, but you can't beat the price with a stick! Leave one navcomm in for the VOR/Glideslope, and replace the second radio with the 300XL.
 
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I've seen refurbed KX170B's for about $600-$1,000 . Sounds like you could slide one back in,there about as trustworthy as you can get.
The used KX155 w/GS 12volt and KI 209 VOR/GS indicator are up around $3,500 maybe less, and depending on how old it is the display may go as it's said they need work about every 7 or 8 years.
Not many used SL 30's around ,some say the display is small for old eyes ,but good units
Hold off on the transponder as long as you can in case the new ADS-B comes out .
On the GPS,either or would be good.
If IFR isn't necessary I'd look at a 396/496 with weather subscription or even less $the new King AV-80 with weather.
I've been looking to upgrade also, this is just my opinion and what I've gleaned from others
 
Greg,

I'd tend toward a Garmin 300 (replacing the Michel) and a 496.

Keep in mind GPS database updates. My King 90B is $750 a year.
 
Ken Ibold said:
Greg,

I'd tend toward a Garmin 300 (replacing the Michel) and a 496.

Keep in mind GPS database updates. My King 90B is $750 a year.
Click to expand...

The plan I had, as one of those real, real long back round-tuits, was to use the handheld as moving map for the 300. I was told by Garmin that would work way back when I got my 295.
 
If a Garmin 430 is out of the question, your most cost effective solution is probably to replace the GX55 with a GX50. Sell the GX55 on eBay if the shop won't take it in trade. Get the existing MX-170 tuned up by TKM/Michel. Turn the ADF into six more pounds of useful load and a doorstop for your hangar office.
 
It's a KLN 35 and not worth the effort, I am affraid. And I agree with the ADF. It will also give me another hole in the panel to work with. :)
 
Your best bet for en route GPS is the KLN94. Close to the 430, without the COM. Word is a KLN90 is a good sub, but a non-standard interface, so you might save money if you're willing to put in the time learning. That Michel comm isn't doing you any favors. Frankly, you might consider a refurb KX170, since radio folks (I am not one of them) consider them some of the most reliable radios made.
 
Ron Levy said:
Then I'd recommend the KLN-94.
Click to expand...

Ditto on that. IMO the KLN-94 is one of the best non-WAAS standalone IFR GPS units available today. If you're in the market for a good audio panel, you can't beat the PM8000 but any audio panel comes with a hefty installation cost although if you're replacing all the audio sources you're gonna spend most of that reconnecting your existing panel.

The squelch issue might not be the radio. If you can hear engine noise your ignition shielding is bad and/or the primary leads are radiating (they should be shielded as well). It could also be a bad ground connection at the antenna.
0
You said your transponder is still working but if you want to replace that, the GTX327 is very nice and can be had for a bit more than a kilobuck on the used market.

The KX-155 is a decent radio but it doesn't include a nav converter, is voltage specific (and 14v units are priceier), display problems are common, and the flip-flop button doesn't work very well. The hands down best navcom available is Garmin's SL-30 but the price reflects that standing. I think a Mac converted KX170B is a pretty good radio especially if you already have a tray wired in.

Don't forget to replace the antenna cabling and clean up the antenna mounting.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I have a basic (old) King Silver Crown avionics package in my airplane. While it is technically IFR certified, I really don't trust it enough to actually fly it in the IFR system. Here is what I have.

1) King KX170B. Serviceable. Seems to work just fine.
1) Michal 170B Digital slide in replacement for the King KX170B. It has issues.
1) King ADF, analog, It does not point.
1) King VFR GPS. Basically inop because the display has blank spots in it.
1) King Transponder with encoder. It works just fine, so far.
1) Audio Panel of some undetermined manufacture. Probably King. Works ok.

What I want to end up with is reliable communications with an approach capable GPS without breaking the bank. This is a budget operation here because if I have money to spend on the airplane, I really need to spend it on other things first, but if I can justify basic upgrades I will.

The issue with the Michal is that when I squelch out the engine noise, the range pretty much is down to less than 10 miles. There may be an avionics shop fix for that but I am not sure. Not that dual comm is an absolute necessity, it is just nice to have.

The ADF and VFR GPS can go. Everything else I can keep. So what I am looking for is the most economical way of getting an IFR GPS. That may mean a King KLN (?) 94 or a GPS comm like the Garmin 300XL.

So, given these parameters, what would you guys do? The Garmin 430/530 and the like are out of range budget wise, so lets not go there. :fingerwag:
Click to expand...

:idea:Dude, you work for United, a couple hundred bucks and a hooker and you can get someone to sneak out the deck of a triple 7....:thumbsup:
 
In my 57 172 180hp I went with the Kx-155gs/KI209 indicator and GNC300xl/KI208 with Kt76 transponder. I have been very happy flying IFR with the 300. You will need the annunciato/Indicator with the 300 to make it IFR certified.
 
What are refurb 300XL's going for these days?
 
Anthony said:
What are refurb 300XL's going for these days?
Click to expand...

~ $3200 in Trade-a-Plane and on the Internet. Don't think that includes the annunciator though. If it is a new IFR GPS installation, you get the fun of increased installation costs of new antenna placement testing.
 
Anthony said:
What are refurb 300XL's going for these days?
Click to expand...

alaskaflyer said:
~ $3200 in Trade-a-Plane and on the Internet. Don't think that includes the annunciator though. If it is a new IFR GPS installation, you get the fun of increased installation costs of new antenna placement testing.
Click to expand...

Isn't that the rub? At some point the install costs of the annunciator and other cabling creeps up to match the cost of a 430.
 
mikea said:
Isn't that the rub? At some point the install costs of the annunciator and other cabling creeps up to match the cost of a 430.
Click to expand...

But those issues are there whether or not the unit is a 300XL or a 430. The box is going to be in the neighborhood of 3 times more expensive for a 430 over the 300XL. It IS an issue.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
But those issues are there whether or not the unit is a 300XL or a 430. The box is going to be in the neighborhood of 3 times more expensive for a 430 over the 300XL. It IS an issue.
Click to expand...

If the install of 300XL is $1000 more? I'm thinking that the 300XL requires the annunciator while the 430 doesn't, right? Is there more involved with the OBS/GS wiring on the 300?
 
Another option would be a used/refurb 430.
 
mikea said:
If the install of 300XL is $1000 more? I'm thinking that the 300XL requires the annunciator while the 430 doesn't, right? Is there more involved with the OBS/GS wiring on the 300?
Click to expand...

$1,000 bucks for an annunciator? I doubt it but I guess I wouldn't be surprised. If the cost difference between a 300XL and a 430 is only $1,000 there is no question I would go with the 430, but I think it would be closer to 4 or 5 grand.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
$1,000 bucks for an annunciator? I doubt it but I guess I wouldn't be surprised.
Click to expand...

Yep, that's about right.

Greg, I have this CDI in my plane attached to the Garmin (formerly UPS AT) GX60. It has the annunciator lights built-in. I wouldn't overlook the GX60. I've had good experience with it.

They list this other CDI for the GNC300XL and unfortunately, it doesn't have all the approach indicator lights in it. I don't know the difference between the two.

P.S. Found an Ebay auction for a GX60 + the annunciator I have!
 
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Greg:

Now that ought to be an auction worth watching- the GX60 is a great GPS/Comm.
 
mikea said:
Isn't that the rub? At some point the install costs of the annunciator and other cabling creeps up to match the cost of a 430.
Click to expand...

Unlike a 300XL, a KLN-94 can be installed without an annunciator if it's mounted close enough to the pilot. And the display is way mo' better.
 
Hi Greg. I have been flying IFR for years in my Cherokee. When I bought it, it had a KX155, KX170, and KN64 DME. It had a KMA24 audio panel, but not an intercom.

Subsequently, I have upgraded to the PS7000B audio panel/marker/intercom. It is really nice to have reliable coms in the plane. I would do that again in a heartbeat.

I have a garmin 396 in the plane, and love it. It provides more situational awareness than any panel mount, provides some redundancy because of the integrated battery, adds weather info in the cockpit, and the price is right. Regarding your desire for an approach approved GPS... Unless you are based (or frequently use) a field where GPS approaches are a big help. Why get one? I have found controllers to be very accomodating with direct routings enroute, and for most airports - the GPS approach rarely offers a significantly lower MDA than the VOR approaches out there (at least in the Midwest). And ILS(s) almost always get you the lowest minimums.

Further, if you plan on selling your plane, I have found that (unfortunately) the market adds little value for any avionics other than GNS430/530. So I would recommend to minimally upgrade what you have or go for the big dog and add a 430/530.

-Nathan




Greg Bockelman said:
I have a basic (old) King Silver Crown avionics package in my airplane. While it is technically IFR certified, I really don't trust it enough to actually fly it in the IFR system. Here is what I have.
Click to expand...
 
nyoung said:
Subsequently, I have upgraded to the PS7000B audio panel/marker/intercom.
Click to expand...

PS does make a nice audio panel.

I have a garmin 396 in the plane, and love it. It provides more situational awareness than any panel mount, provides some redundancy because of the integrated battery, adds weather info in the cockpit, and the price is right.
Click to expand...

All true. I use Anywhere Moving Map for my PDA and agree with enhanced situational awareness. But as far as weather, as little as I would use it, it does not make sense to pay for the subscription.

Regarding your desire for an approach approved GPS... Unless you are based (or frequently use) a field where GPS approaches are a big help. Why get one?
Click to expand...

Good point. But I do not have a DME. That is rather inconvenient where I am based. Also, it is just more convenient to have the options.

I have found controllers to be very accomodating with direct routings enroute, and for most airports - the GPS approach rarely offers a significantly lower MDA than the VOR approaches out there (at least in the Midwest). And ILS(s) almost always get you the lowest minimums.
Click to expand...

PROVIDED those approaches are available where you want to go.

Further, if you plan on selling your plane, I have found that (unfortunately) the market adds little value for any avionics other than GNS430/530.
Click to expand...

True enough.

So I would recommend to minimally upgrade what you have or go for the big dog and add a 430/530.
Click to expand...

Budget, man. Budget.

The reality is that if I was serious about upgrades, I would sell my airplane and buy one that is equipped the way I want it. That may in fact happen. But it would be in the form of downsizing to an RV-7 whether I build it or buy it.
 
lancefisher said:
Unlike a 300XL, a KLN-94 can be installed without an annunciator if it's mounted close enough to the pilot. And the display is way mo' better.
Click to expand...
I've used both, and agree with Lance that the 94 is a significantly better choice. Not only is the display "way mo' better," so is the user interface -- the 300XL's is clunky and unintuitive, and both my trainees and I have found it harder to learn.
 
Speaking of PS-Engineering, what's up with their website? http://www.ps-engineering.com

I will throw my hat in the KLN-94 ring... good GPS for "on the budget" with IFR certification available. Light years beyond the KLN-89B in usability.
 
nyoung said:
I have a garmin 396 in the plane, and love it. It provides more situational awareness than any panel mount, provides some redundancy because of the integrated battery, adds weather info in the cockpit, and the price is right. Regarding your desire for an approach approved GPS... Unless you are based (or frequently use) a field where GPS approaches are a big help. Why get one? I have found controllers to be very accomodating with direct routings enroute, and for most airports - the GPS approach rarely offers a significantly lower MDA than the VOR approaches out there (at least in the Midwest). And ILS(s) almost always get you the lowest minimums.
Click to expand...

There are two airports that I was hoping to work for in Wisconsin, both of which have two different types of approach: GPS and NDB. Given the choice, I'd much rather have the approach certified GPS than have to shoot NDB approaches.

Now you've got me curious as to how common that is...
 
nyoung said:
Regarding your desire for an approach approved GPS... Unless you are based (or frequently use) a field where GPS approaches are a big help. Why get one? I have found controllers to be very accomodating with direct routings enroute, and for most airports - the GPS approach rarely offers a significantly lower MDA than the VOR approaches out there (at least in the Midwest). And ILS(s) almost always get you the lowest minimums.
Click to expand...

I beg to differ on the GPS vs VOR mins, which IME are often 100-200 ft lower. In addition a GPS is easier to fly AND more accurate plus it gives you the ability to fly VOR and LOC approaches that require DME or ADF.

And while those friendly controllers will indeed allow you to fly off airway, you are not legally entitled to accept a clearance to a distant waypoint that you cannot navigate to on your own without using your VFR GPS unless you use the subtefuge of requesting and getting a "vector".
 
nyoung said:
Regarding your desire for an approach approved GPS... Unless you are based (or frequently use) a field where GPS approaches are a big help. Why get one? I have found controllers to be very accomodating with direct routings enroute, and for most airports - the GPS approach rarely offers a significantly lower MDA than the VOR approaches out there (at least in the Midwest). And ILS(s) almost always get you the lowest minimums.
Click to expand...

flyingcheesehead said:
There are two airports that I was hoping to work for in Wisconsin, both of which have two different types of approach: GPS and NDB. Given the choice, I'd much rather have the approach certified GPS than have to shoot NDB approaches.

Now you've got me curious as to how common that is...
Click to expand...

Okay, I had to geek out and figure this one out.

In the state of Wisconsin, there are 127 public-use land airports (as opposed to pure seaplane bases). 88 of those have instrument approaches.

I split the approaches into 6 categories: ILS, VOR (including SDF, LOC, VOR/DME, etc.), GPS (including some that were VOR/DME RNAV overlays), NDB, VOR + GPS overlay, and NDB + GPS overlay.

This table shows the total number of approaches of each type, and the total number of airports with each approach type:

[ROW][CELL]IAP type[/CELL][CELL]ILS[/CELL][CELL]GPS[/CELL][CELL]VOR, etc.[/CELL][CELL]NDB[/CELL][CELL]VOR + GPS overlay[/CELL][CELL]NDB + GPS overlay[/CELL][/ROW][ROW][CELL]IAP #[/CELL][CELL]26[/CELL][CELL]162[/CELL][CELL]66[/CELL][CELL]26[/CELL][CELL]30[/CELL][CELL]21[/CELL][/ROW][ROW][CELL]# airports[/CELL][CELL]16[/CELL][CELL]72[/CELL][CELL]37[/CELL][CELL]23[/CELL][CELL]25[/CELL][CELL]17[/CELL][/ROW]

Now, as far as what you can actually fly... Here's the number of airports you can get into, with just an approach certified GPS, just a VOR/LOC/GS, just an ADF, VOR/LOC/GS with approach GPS, and VOR/LOC/GS with ADF but no GPS, and not that anyone has this setup but ADF and GPS:

[ROW][CELL]GPS only[/CELL][CELL]VOR only[/CELL][CELL]NDB only[/CELL][CELL]VOR+GPS[/CELL][CELL]VOR+NDB[/CELL][CELL]GPS+NDB[/CELL][/ROW][ROW][CELL]88 (100%)[/CELL][CELL]54 (61%)[/CELL][CELL]38 (43%)[/CELL][CELL]100%[/CELL][CELL]85%[/CELL][CELL]100%[/CELL][/ROW]

Yes, you read that right. With only an approach certified GPS, you can get into every one of the airports that has any kind of approach in the state. 82% of the airports have a pure GPS approach, the rest have a GPS overlay on a VOR or NDB approach. The VOR/LOC/GS plus DME will get you into 61% of the airports, that plus ADF will get you into 85% but the GPS alone will do every one of 'em.

I also used some Google-fu and it appears that there is not a single airport in the US that has an approach but that you can't get into with an approach-certified GPS. I know the FAA has been on a big kick about that, and it appears that they have been pretty successful.

So, in closing - IMHO, any panel upgrade that is undertaken should result in an approach-certified GPS in the panel if you intend to fly IFR. :yes:
 
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