ATP Written & no Multi engine rating

[Z06_Mir]

So, with August 1st approaching more quickly than I realize, I'm thinking of taking the ATP written in July. My thinking is that once I take it I have 2 years to get to 1,500TT and then would be exempt from the new requirements. I was reading through the new requirements and they seem to mention almost strictly "Multi engine". I don't have a multi engine rating and probably won't until at least July, but probably later. If I do my ATP as SEL can I just do a multi-add on without that new, expensive course later? So I take (in theory) my ATP SEL in June of 2016, but don't go for my multi until say 2017.. would I still be exempt from the new requirements since it would be an add on to an existing ATP certificate? If I don't hit 1500 before my written expires I'm only out $150 but it could save thousands, so that's my thought process on the whole thing.

 

[poadeleted20]

So, with August 1st approaching more quickly than I realize, I'm thinking of taking the ATP written in July. My thinking is that once I take it I have 2 years to get to 1,500TT and then would be exempt from the new requirements. I was reading through the new requirements and they seem to mention almost strictly "Multi engine". I don't have a multi engine rating and probably won't until at least July, but probably later. If I do my ATP as SEL can I just do a multi-add on without that new, expensive course later?

Yes, as long as you pass the current ATP test before Aug 1 2014 and complete the ATP with ASEL rating within 24 calendar months after you pass that written.

So I take (in theory) my ATP SEL in June of 2016, but don't go for my multi until say 2017.. would I still be exempt from the new requirements since it would be an add on to an existing ATP certificate?

Yes, as long as you pass the current ATP written between June 1 2014 and July 31 2014. After that, the only ATP written you'll be able to take without the CTP course will be the new ATP-SE written, which will not qualify you to add the ME rating later without also taking the new ATP-ME written.

 

[Z06_Mir]

Thank you for clarifying Ron. Looks like I'm going to be flying at every possible opportunity for the next 2.5 years. I suggest anyone who *might* want an ATP *someday* do the same because once the new program comes into effect the costs are going to be crazy.

 

[kurtsnyder]

You must be employed at a 121/135 carrier though before the new rules kick into effect to not have to go through the new training, right? It's not just a matter of passing the written and being good for 2 years. You have to remain employed at a 121/135. Or am I wrong?

 

[poadeleted20]

You must be employed at a 121/135 carrier though before the new rules kick into effect to not have to go through the new training, right? It's not just a matter of passing the written and being good for 2 years. You have to remain employed at a 121/135. Or am I wrong?

Employment status is not relevant to the point under discussion.

 

[kurtsnyder]

Employment status is not relevant to the point under discussion.

i understand that he was just asking about the multi ride. I just wanted to make sure I was right (hence, my question) and that he wasn't under the wrong impression too.

I haven't read the whole rule so help me understand. If I take the ATP written now only work say, as a CFI, and don't get the 1,500 hours until a year from now, I can take the ATP ride without having to go through the new, approved training program dictated by the new rule?

 

[GCA319]

Thank you for clarifying Ron. Looks like I'm going to be flying at every possible opportunity for the next 2.5 years. I suggest anyone who *might* want an ATP *someday* do the same because once the new program into effect the costs are going to be crazy.

I'm in a similar boat as you. I'm presently sitting on around 700 TT and probably only average 300 hours or so per year. My plan is to take the current ATP written before 8/1 and hopefully meet ATP mins before it expires in 2016..I'm considering applying for an aerial survey job next season since XC time is what I'm most in need of (I get some at my corporate job, but we only average 60-100 hours per year as of right now and given that my current instructing gig is mostly teaching Sport students, I get minimal XC time on that end).

 

[Z06_Mir]

I'm in a similar boat as you. I'm presently sitting on around 700 TT and probably only average 300 hours or so per year. My plan is to take the current ATP written before 8/1 and hopefully meet ATP mins before it expires in 2016..I'm considering applying for an aerial survey job next season since XC time is what I'm most in need of (I get some at my corporate job, but we only average 60-100 hours per year as of right now and given that my current instructing gig is mostly teaching Sport students, I get minimal XC time on that end).

I fly quite a bit of cross country. Probably half my time is xc, maybe a little less. I am concerned about getting enough night. I think I'll need to start doing my travels at night towards the end even though I'm not fond of leaving the Phoenix/Tucson area at night. I'm hoping to pick up a cfi job more than freelance soon. Maybe through my new job I can pick up some right seat time in something.... We'll see. If I can't hit 1500 at least I can say I tried before it was too late.

 

[poadeleted20]

I haven't read the whole rule so help me understand. If I take the ATP written now only work say, as a CFI, and don't get the 1,500 hours until a year from now, I can take the ATP ride without having to go through the new, approved training program dictated by the new rule?

Yes. The 61.156 training program is required only to take the new ATP-ME written, and nothing else. If you already have the written done before Aug 1, then you don't have to do the program unless you let that written expire without getting your ATP certificate (either single or multi) so you then have to take the new ATP-ME written later on before your ATP-ME ride.

As I read the reg, your employment status doesn't change anything, no matter who you work for. The only reason I can think of why 121/135 employment might help is that your employer will probably provide the training required by 61.156 as part of your job rather than on your own time/out of your own pocket.

 

[taters]

So, with August 1st approaching more quickly than I realize, I'm thinking of taking the ATP written in July. My thinking is that once I take it I have 2 years to get to 1,500TT and then would be exempt from the new requirements. I was reading through the new requirements and they seem to mention almost strictly "Multi engine". I don't have a multi engine rating and probably won't until at least July, but probably later. If I do my ATP as SEL can I just do a multi-add on without that new, expensive course later? So I take (in theory) my ATP SEL in June of 2016, but don't go for my multi until say 2017.. would I still be exempt from the new requirements since it would be an add on to an existing ATP certificate? If I don't hit 1500 before my written expires I'm only out $150 but it could save thousands, so that's my thought process on the whole thing.

I did my ATP SEL to "save" my written and later did the MEL on a Type ride...confused the hell out of the examiner when the had to make the Temp certificate

 

[kevmor99]

If I don't hit 1500 before my written expires I'm only out $150 but it could save thousands, so that's my thought process on the whole thing.

Does anyone know what these courses will cost and what's involved?

 

[kurtsnyder]

Yes. The 61.156 training program is required only to take the new ATP-ME written, and nothing else. If you already have the written done before Aug 1, then you don't have to do the program unless you let that written expire without getting your ATP certificate (either single or multi) so you then have to take the new ATP-ME written later on before your ATP-ME ride.

As I read the reg, your employment status doesn't change anything, no matter who you work for. The only reason I can think of why 121/135 employment might help is that your employer will probably provide the training required by 61.156 as part of your job rather than on your own time/out of your own pocket.

OK, thanks for the clarification!

 

[poadeleted20]

Does anyone know what these courses will cost and what's involved?

Dunno for sure about cost, but what's involved is...

(a) Academic training. The applicant for the knowledge test must receive at least 30 hours of classroom instruction that includes the following: (1) At least 8 hours of instruction on aerodynamics including high altitude operations;
(2) At least 2 hours of instruction on meteorology, including adverse weather phenomena and weather detection systems; and
(3) At least 14 hours of instruction on air carrier operations, including the following areas:
(i) Physiology;
(ii) Communications;
(iii) Checklist philosophy;
(iv) Operational control;
(v) Minimum equipment list/configuration deviation list;
(vi) Ground operations;
(vii) Turbine engines;
(viii) Transport category aircraft performance; (ix) Automation, navigation, and flight path warning systems.

(4) At least 6 hours of instruction on leadership, professional development, crew resource management, and safety culture.

(b) FSTD training. The applicant for the knowledge test must receive at least 10 hours of training in a flight simulation training device qualified under part 60 of this chapter that represents a multiengine turbine airplane. The training must include the following:
(1) At least 6 hours of training in a Level C or higher full flight simulator qualified under part 60 of this chapter that represents a multiengine turbine airplane with a maximum takeoff weight of 40,000 pounds or greater. The training must include the following areas:
(i) Low energy states/stalls;
(ii) Upset recovery techniques; and
(iii) Adverse weather conditions, including icing, thunderstorms, and crosswinds with gusts.

(2) The remaining FSTD training may be completed in a Level 4 or higher flight simulation training device. The training must include the following areas:
(i) Navigation including flight management systems; and
(ii) Automation including autoflight.

That's 30 hours of ground training, 6 hours in a Level C or higher full flight sim, and 4 hours in a Level 4 or higher FTD. I'm guessing that's going to run you somewhere around $3K all told.

 

[tlglenn]

For the past couple of years I've thought about obtaining a degree in aviation human factors after my daughter was done with college. I suppose I should pick a program that also qualifies me to take the ATP-MEL written exam.

 

[poadeleted20]

For the past couple of years I've thought about obtaining a degree in aviation human factors after my daughter was done with college. I suppose I should pick a program that also qualifies me to take the ATP-MEL written exam.

A baccalaureate or master's degree in aviation takes a few years at a university. The 61.156 training takes about a week at a Part 141/142 flight training provider. I'm not sure I'd be trying to combine the two.