ATP vs FBO

[david0tey]

I'm getting towards the end of my liberal arts college career (mistake) and am starting to consider my options when I graduate. The military option may be off the table because of some childhood asthma that apparently disqualifies me. I have talked to a MD about it and he said I would have no trouble getting my 1st class medical. Anyway, the way I see it, I can either go to ATP (Richmond) or train with my current instructor at my own pace when I graduate. I have my private now and want to eventually get on with the airlines. Either way, I would be living at home during my training and would need to get a loan to finish. My question is, what prepares me better for a job with the airlines? Should I dish out 50k all at once and try to finish in 90 days with ATP, or get a part time job (possibly as a baggage boy) and spread it out over a couple of years? I do like my current instructor but I would like to be flying professionally ASAP considering the upcoming pilot shortages. I'd appreciate any advice.

 

[poadeleted20]

The sooner you start, the sooner you finish. The more intensively you train, the sooner you finish. At the end of the day, it all comes down to whether you have the money and the desire to do it all quickly.

The only other factor is that ATP teaches an airline style of procedures-oriented flying, which will help prepare you for how the airlines do it. If your instructor at the FBO has that sort of experience and the necessary materials, you can learn that style at the FBO, but that's not a given the way it is at an airline-feeding professional school like ATP and the others of its ilk.

 

[catmandu]

The airlines are seniority based. You can do the iterations, but the sooner you start, the better the backside (whether it be money or quality of life, or, if you are really lucky, both).

 

[flyingmoose]

Like they said. If you have the money to drop then get it knocked out at a pilot mill. You can get the same training at a smaller local operation, but you might have a better shot at moving up faster if you go to a bigger instituion. Remember, you are still going to have to work as an instructor for how ever long it takes to build enough hours to be employable. That is how they structure there training after you get your rating. Even if you do it locally, you will still need to find a way to build experience. Either way it can be kinda hit or miss and sometimes luck is involved. Good luck to you.

 

[Jeanie]

Can't you get a medical waiver for the asthma if it was only during your childhood and hasn't recurred within say 10years?

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Regardless of which route you go, you're going to need to figure out how to get from 250 hours to ATP minimums if you have any interest in flying for the airlines. Even your local night cargo feeder airline is going to require 1200 hours minimum.

There are lots of ways to get there. Often they don't pay for crap. But, then again, neither does the first year at an airline.

 

[poadeleted20]

Can't you get a medical waiver for the asthma if it was only during your childhood and hasn't recurred within say 10years?

That's an issue which may vary by service and even from time to time, but will probably difficult to get past as long as they can get enough people with no such history. One would have to ask the recruiters to check with the appropriate aeromedical authorities for that service.

 

[jonnyjetprop]

Keep in mind that you will have years of low paying jobs. How will you pay for ATP? IMHO, going into debt to fund flight training is a mistake.

I think that the ATP requirement levels the playing field between a pilot mill and the Local FBO. The race now is to 1500tt, not a commercial ticket. Also keep in mind that if you go with flight instruction to get additional hours, you may or may not get a job with either ATP or your local FBO.

BTW, get your four year degree. Nobody cares what it is in, just get one.

 

[david0tey]

Can't you get a medical waiver for the asthma if it was only during your childhood and hasn't recurred within say 10years?

My asthma hasn't been a problem in 10 years but I made the mistake of telling the recruiter that I used it like 3-4 years ago when I was sick. My mouth got me in trouble again.

 

[hindsight2020]

You're about to make mistake #2 by choosing airline pilot as a vocation, especially by going zero-to-hero with money you don't have in cash. If you can't or won't dig into the military option, I wouldn't do it at all to be frank with you. The only pilot shortage you will see is a shortage of pilots willing to work for less than 35K/yr for the better part of a decade. The industry will never go back to the compensation models of pre-deregulation. What that means to you is that the path to an above median income is more than 10 years away if you had regional hiring flight times TODAY. Think about that. One furlough as a regional guy and boom, you're back at square one. Being young allows you to re-start, but once you start setting your life play in motion you become increasingly priced out of the ability to start at sub 30K/yr income. All because of what? Because you cannot figure out what else to do with your time other than manipulating aircraft controls for little money? Dig deeper if that's the case.

Fly for fun. Which will require you to get a good paying job. What are your vocational interests outside of zipping on an airplane? I did this exercise while in college. I always asked myself 'what would I do if I couldn't fly tomorrow?' I was in engineering and thought that was the answer. Turns out I hated it with a passion. But I enjoyed teaching. So for me, teaching would always be an avenue where I could dig in if I needed to. Of course, like everything else in life I would have to get creative to get a competitive teaching job that paid more than elementary educators or adjunct professors. But the point is that at a minimum I wouldn't want to gouge my eyeballs out like in the case of engineering. Hell, I'd teach engineering before working as one, how's that for ironic?

Do that exercise and do the flying thing for fun. Don't do it with money you don't have. It will make your liberal arts degree mistake look like a lotto ticket by comparison. Good luck to you.

 

[david0tey]

You're about to make mistake #2 by choosing airline pilot as a vocation, especially by going zero-to-hero with money you don't have in cash. If you can't or won't dig into the military option, I wouldn't do it at all to be frank with you. The only pilot shortage you will see is a shortage of pilots willing to work for less than 35K/yr for the better part of a decade. The industry will never go back to the compensation models of pre-deregulation. What that means to you is that the path to an above median income is more than 10 years away if you had regional hiring flight times TODAY. Think about that. One furlough as a regional guy and boom, you're back at square one. Being young allows you to re-start, but once you start setting your life play in motion you become increasingly priced out of the ability to start at sub 30K/yr income. All because of what? Because you cannot figure out what else to do with your time other than manipulating aircraft controls for little money? Dig deeper if that's the case.

Fly for fun. Which will require you to get a good paying job. What are your vocational interests outside of zipping on an airplane? I did this exercise while in college. I always asked myself 'what would I do if I couldn't fly tomorrow?' I was in engineering and thought that was the answer. Turns out I hated it with a passion. But I enjoyed teaching. So for me, teaching would always be an avenue where I could dig in if I needed to. Of course, like everything else in life I would have to get creative to get a competitive teaching job that paid more than elementary educators or adjunct professors. But the point is that at a minimum I wouldn't want to gouge my eyeballs out like in the case of engineering. Hell, I'd teach engineering before working as one, how's that for ironic?

Do that exercise and do the flying thing for fun. Don't do it with money you don't have. It will make your liberal arts degree mistake look like a lotto ticket by comparison. Good luck to you.

This is exactly my problem. I'm at a liberal arts college now and hate it with the burning passion of a thousand suns. I see these people telling me they want to be psychologists and biologists and it makes me want to vomit just hearing them talk about it. I want to be a pilot and it blows my mind that people find some of this stuff interesting. I literally cannot see myself doing anything else besides flying, or at least being in the aviation field.

 

[JimNtexas]

All ATP has a real curriculum, a fleet of nearly identical airplanes, simulators, and full time instructors. If an airplane breaks they can quickly provide a backup. If an instructor calls in sick another instructor can consult the standardized training records and have a good idea of where you are in your training. Schools like ATP do not also do charters, so your instructor isn't going to jump out your airplane and run over to the right seat of the Navaho that's taking a guy to the fracking field.

At the typical FBO no two planes are alike. Planes come and go like gypsies in the night. The planes are all leased, so maintenance is at the whim of the owner. Instructors are almost all part timers who have real jobs that take priority over their time building.

If you are serious about being a professional pilot (and please do read the post above concerning the downsides.) then go to a professional school.

I've done some training at San Marcos Redbird Skyport and have been really impressed. Their courses are mostly flat rate, they have a building full of simulators, their planes are all late models, well equipped and well maintained. Their facility is a Taj Mahal. Most of the instructors are full time W-2 employees with benefits, something almost unheard of in general aviation.

Check them out.

Edited to Add: Finish your degree! Neither liberal arts nor aviation pay much until you have years of experience, but having a degree, even in a non-technical field, is important in both career areas.

 

[Anymouse]

I was going to get my ATP with AllATPs. I told them up front that I hadn't flown IFR or ME for several years and would need some polishing. "No Problem," they said. "Sign up for the 10 hour course." So I did.

Got the written memorized and out of the way the first two days. All self study.

Third day we were supposed to go flying bright and early. As we're walking out to the plane, the CFI says, "You have to already know everything because we don't have time to train you." I asked him for clarification and he repeated what he had said. I did a 180 and walked back into the office.

Once in the office, I cornered the manager and asked him about the policy of not having time to train. The manager confirmed this. I got a full refund, minus the amount for the written, and walked out. I eventually found a place that felt CFIs were there to train students, not just ride along.

Bottom line, go somewhere else for your training.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

The only other factor is that ATP teaches an airline style of procedures-oriented flying, which will help prepare you for how the airlines do it.

He aint going to touch anything resembling a airliner for a while, ATP is a puppy mill, not quality instruction.

Find a good independent CFI and a flying club, knock some hours out and have fun, remember every airport you stop at is a potential first employer.

Go on some epic x-countries, this will teach you far more about flying then ATP's wanabe airline stuff.

Find a friend who is going down the same path to a CPL and research "saftey pilot"

Enjoy the journey.

 

[dmspilot]

The only other factor is that ATP teaches an airline style of procedures-oriented flying, which will help prepare you for how the airlines do it.

It absolutely won't, that's merely a marketing gimmick.

A friend of mine did all his training at very small FBOs. Got hired at an airline. 3 of the other new-hires in his class went to ATP, all 3 failed the sim training. He passed, completed IOE, and flew the line...

 

[Tommy3]

A few thoughts:

Someone mentioned ensuring that you finish your BA. This is extremely good advice, as an undergraduate degree is these days--unfortunately in my opinion--pretty much a mandatory item for any profession.

Even if you've blown your chances with one recruiter, you might want to consider a different military service. There is naval aviation (for example) and perhaps you could be a bit more careful about what you tell the Navy recruiter. But in that case you'd want to be sure that you knew you were good-to-go, medically, before signing the contract, lest you end up in a military profession in which you have no interest.

Also keep in mind that by becoming a military aviator, you're probably looking at spending the first half of your adult life in that job, with that lifestyle. I think Naval aviators have a 12 year service commitment. You figure that because of timing and rotations and whatnot you'd probably be able to leave after 12.5 years . . . meaning only 7.5 years from retirement. It's hard for anyone to give up retirement when you're so close. So you have to be sure you're willing to do that. The military is rewarding but you do have to give up a lot with that lifestyle.

Now, if you know in your heart that you want to be a pilot, full stop, then you're in a sense lucky; it's just a question of the best route to the commercial ticket, IR, and 1k hrs of TT, give or take. I tend to think that whatever route you go you'll be okay . . . just make sure that you can work toward these requirements consistently. That is, if you decide to use an FBO that has three planes, one of which is in maintenance all the time and the others used by students, well, that's not conducive to your professional goals.

If you have a mid-sized controlled field nearby you might want to do some flying out there, meet some people, maybe find a crappy part-time job there working on the line or whatever . . . you might make some connections, people who want a safety pilot, share PIC, whatever. And you'd get exposed to a lot of different parts of the aviation business, which could provide some insight into what other options might be available.

 

[wabower]

A few thoughts:

Someone mentioned ensuring that you finish your BA. This is extremely good advice, as an undergraduate degree is these days--unfortunately in my opinion--pretty much a mandatory item for any profession.

Even if you've blown your chances with one recruiter, you might want to consider a different military service. There is naval aviation (for example) and perhaps you could be a bit more careful about what you tell the Navy recruiter. But in that case you'd want to be sure that you knew you were good-to-go, medically, before signing the contract, lest you end up in a military profession in which you have no interest.

Also keep in mind that by becoming a military aviator, you're probably looking at spending the first half of your adult life in that job, with that lifestyle. I think Naval aviators have a 12 year service commitment. You figure that because of timing and rotations and whatnot you'd probably be able to leave after 12.5 years . . . meaning only 7.5 years from retirement. It's hard for anyone to give up retirement when you're so close. So you have to be sure you're willing to do that. The military is rewarding but you do have to give up a lot with that lifestyle.

Now, if you know in your heart that you want to be a pilot, full stop, then you're in a sense lucky; it's just a question of the best route to the commercial ticket, IR, and 1k hrs of TT, give or take. I tend to think that whatever route you go you'll be okay . . . just make sure that you can work toward these requirements consistently. That is, if you decide to use an FBO that has three planes, one of which is in maintenance all the time and the others used by students, well, that's not conducive to your professional goals.

If you have a mid-sized controlled field nearby you might want to do some flying out there, meet some people, maybe find a crappy part-time job there working on the line or whatever . . . you might make some connections, people who want a safety pilot, share PIC, whatever. And you'd get exposed to a lot of different parts of the aviation business, which could provide some insight into what other options might be available.

Why do you think it's unfortunate that a degree is required by many professions?

How do you think a young person can know if they want to be a pilot forever when they've never experienced the life-style and opportunities (or lack) that comes with the profession?

 

[Tommy3]

Why do you think it's unfortunate that a degree is required by many professions?

The undergraduate degree has largely replaced the high school diploma as the entry-level credential for many, many jobs. To get a BA/BS requires a very large investment (4 years without income plus, depending on where one goes, roughly $100,000). I think there are many, many professions where the "soft" skills one obtains as an undergraduate are not necessary. Being a pilot is one of them, in my view.

How do you think a young person can know if they want to be a pilot forever when they've never experienced the life-style and opportunities (or lack) that comes with the profession?

I think it's a very good idea to get some exposure to the industry; thus, my recommendation to "get exposed to a lot of different parts of the aviation business, which could provide some insight into what other options might be available".

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

This is exactly my problem. I'm at a liberal arts college now and hate it with the burning passion of a thousand suns. I see these people telling me they want to be psychologists and biologists and it makes me want to vomit just hearing them talk about it. I want to be a pilot and it blows my mind that people find some of this stuff interesting. I literally cannot see myself doing anything else besides flying, or at least being in the aviation field.

Change schools and get an A&P mechanics license. If you love aviation perhaps this is a good choice. Secondly an aviation management degree.

Even as a professional pilots both of these back ground training will give you great advantages to the poli sci egg heads.

I would not go to a private school and pay a bunch of money nor would I go to ATP or any flight school designed to separate you from your money.

Find a partnership/flying club and use that $50k for fuel. You can build 1000 hrs in a very few years and all the while see the country. Take every chance to fly to sun n fun, Oshkosh, aopa summits, try to fly to every state in the convenient.

You have already blown $7k which could have been used to buy a 1/3 share of a 172/Cherokee to get your PPL. IR and build a bunch of hours. You only need 10 hrs complex to get your commercial. You can later worry about twin time or what have you. Once you get your CFI you can get paid to get hours.

I bought a Cherokee for $20k (today it probably be $15k) and then flew 200 hrs a year or more for basically the cost of mogas. I hired a CFI who graduated from a close by aviation college had 900 hrs from a formal training program and he followed the flight training guides directly. I paid him $12 per hour actually I didn't as I let him use my airplane for 1 hr wet for every 3 hrs of his CFI instruction.

I don't think I have $50k invested in my 1000+ hrs and lots and lots of truly cool vacations and I had no purpose other than to fly.

So open your mind to ways of accomplishing your hours. Don't let anyone tell you you are better off with some school with a name or logo.

Just do it.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

I'm all about living the dream as soon as you can.

If I were doing it,(could go back to high school at 16 years old), I would enroll in the A&P course offered through Wichita's technical school in my JR/SR years of High school. all paid for by the local school district.

While doing that, I'd be working nights at Donkin Donuts, Pizza Hut or MacDonalds (I worked at all three over the early years). I would (could have bought a 1/5 share of a Traveler for $3k) bought into a club or partnership and then used much of my money to pay for gas to fly anywhere and everywhere. So at 16 years old I would have been living the dream and working towards improving it with more ratings.

I'd also tag along with other partners/members when they fly and wanted a tag along. I'd hang out at the airports on my days off and tag along with any of the aviators that I got to know over that time period. (I love to take people flying with me and often let them fly my plane with me just enjoying the ride and conversation or just showing off my airplane to them).

Once I graduated from high school, turned 18, passed the A&P exams i would likely get a job in aviation maintenance and still use my spare money and talents to build ratings and hours. I suspect I would soon have my commercial and CFI so with my A&P and Commercial I would start offering to do Plane Ferrys. Who better to move an airplane than a mechanic/Commercial pilot?

If College was in the works (mom and dad might help pay for it, keep paying room and board), I would look into a community college or state college with an Aviation management program. Possibly get some free credits for the A&P classes/certificate earned as well as Flight ratings and continue on there. You might even get a job working at the schools maintenance department and get double cheap college credit as an employee.

All in all this is probable the best, most direct and cheapest way to ensure a good career in aviation. You would have triple education in A&P mechanics and experience; Aviation management degree; Pilot professional ratings and certificates plus oodles of hours and experience.

The only easier and cheaper way to do it is to be born to generous and well off parents.

 

[LDJones]

I'm all about living the dream as soon as you can.

If I were doing it,(could go back to high school at 16 years old), I would enroll in the A&P course offered through Wichita's technical school in my JR/SR years of High school. all paid for by the local school district.

While doing that, I'd be working nights at Donkin Donuts, Pizza Hut or MacDonalds (I worked at all three over the early years). I would (could have bought a 1/5 share of a Traveler for $3k) bought into a club or partnership and then used much of my money to pay for gas to fly anywhere and everywhere. So at 16 years old I would have been living the dream and working towards improving it with more ratings.

I'd also tag along with other partners/members when they fly and wanted a tag along. I'd hang out at the airports on my days off and tag along with any of the aviators that I got to know over that time period. (I love to take people flying with me and often let them fly my plane with me just enjoying the ride and conversation or just showing off my airplane to them).

Once I graduated from high school, turned 18, passed the A&P exams i would likely get a job in aviation maintenance and still use my spare money and talents to build ratings and hours. I suspect I would soon have my commercial and CFI so with my A&P and Commercial I would start offering to do Plane Ferrys. Who better to move an airplane than a mechanic/Commercial pilot?

If College was in the works (mom and dad might help pay for it, keep paying room and board), I would look into a community college or state college with an Aviation management program. Possibly get some free credits for the A&P classes/certificate earned as well as Flight ratings and continue on there. You might even get a job working at the schools maintenance department and get double cheap college credit as an employee.

All in all this is probable the best, most direct and cheapest way to ensure a good career in aviation. You would have triple education in A&P mechanics and experience; Aviation management degree; Pilot professional ratings and certificates plus oodles of hours and experience.

The only easier and cheaper way to do it is to be born to generous and well off parents.

Excellent, realistic scenario for aviation success. While I think the four-year college education is way overrated, it is an absolute necessity today to have a shot at any decent job, especially the airlines.

The only serious alternative to the above is the military route, which has been ruled out by the OP.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Excellent, realistic scenario for aviation success. While I think the four-year college education is way overrated, it is an absolute necessity today to have a shot at any decent job, especially the airlines.

The only serious alternative to the above is the military route, which has been ruled out by the OP.

Thanks,

Over the years the military/4 yr college have come in and out of vogue depending on the supposed shortage of pilots (???). But I agree the only reliable way to do it is with a 4 yr college degree.

I have never understood the economics(unless rich parents are paying for it) of going to Emory or one of the other private expensive schools considering the low wages expected to pay off those loans.

 

[JHW]

so you acknowledge that your liberal arts degree is not going to pay for itself, yet you now want to take up aviation? What is wrong with this picture?

on a related note, I may be 40+ and have bad knees but I'm still convinced I can have a lucrative career in the NHL, one of these days a scout for the blackhawks is sure to stop by our pond

 

[david0tey]

so you acknowledge that your liberal arts degree is not going to pay for itself, yet you now want to take up aviation? What is wrong with this picture?

on a related note, I may be 40+ and have bad knees but I'm still convinced I can have a lucrative career in the NHL, one of these days a scout for the blackhawks is sure to stop by our pond

Paying for the liberal arts degree is not why it was a bad idea. It was a bad idea because the liberal arts curriculum is painfully boring.

 

[hindsight2020]

Paying for the liberal arts degree is not why it was a bad idea. It was a bad idea because the liberal arts curriculum is painfully boring.

What was the motivation behind getting the LA degree? Would it be fair to suggest the idea one thinks it's easier to keep a higher GPA than having pursued a quantitative-skills major, part of that motivation?

Because I thought the engineering curriculum was gratuitously painful and drawn-out, and it sure as heck wasn't easy, but I still felt the returns on investment were not negative as it is with a LA degree. Perhaps I'm being overtly harsh on the degree. It is possible to apply one's degree indirectly and still get a higher income. I certainly have done so myself, having never worked an engineering job outside academia.

But what's 'boring' got to do with the viability of a vocational track?

 

[david0tey]

What was the motivation behind getting the LA degree? Would it be fair to suggest the idea one thinks it's easier to keep a higher GPA than having pursued a quantitative-skills major, part of that motivation?

Because I thought the engineering curriculum was gratuitously painful and drawn-out, and it sure as heck wasn't easy, but I still felt the returns on investment were not negative as it is with a LA degree. Perhaps I'm being overtly harsh on the degree. It is possible to apply one's degree indirectly and still get a higher income. I certainly have done so myself, having never worked an engineering job outside academia.

But what's 'boring' got to do with the viability of a vocational track?

You used a lot of big words in there and i'm at a liberal arts college so i'm having some trouble understanding it. What i'm saying is that the LA education is not for me. I find all of the subjects unnecessary and boring. I wish I went to Embry Riddle and got an aviation related degree. It wouldn't even necessarily need to involve flying, just something in that field.

 

[JHW]

You used a lot of big words in there and i'm at a liberal arts college so i'm having some trouble understanding it. What i'm saying is that the LA education is not for me. I find all of the subjects unnecessary and boring. I wish I went to Embry Riddle and got an aviation related degree. It wouldn't even necessarily need to involve flying, just something in that field.

if you want to work in aviation then go to a real school and get a degree in something other than aviation. Volunteer work is easy to get regardless of where your degree came from. That way you can still "work" in aviation if you like, but if you someday want to do something crazy like have a family or own a home, then you might have a shot at it.

 

[JimNtexas]

I wish I went to Embry Riddle and got an aviation related degree

Do you have a close relative in management at a major air carrier (UAL, SWA, FEDEX, ect), or are you a member of a protected minority group? If so, you can get hired with an otherwise silly 'Aviation Management' degree.

If you are not a special person, get a general business degree if you're not good at math.

If you are good at math and willing to work 10x harder than your liberal arts friends then get a mechanical or electrical engineering degree in preference to an aeronautical or aerospace engineering degree.

Aviation employers are fine hiring managers and engineers who have degrees that do not include words derived from 'aviation'.

The converse is less true. SpaceX, Gulfstream, or Cessna will gladly hire a good mechanical or electrical engineer.

Ford, Exxon, or Caterpillar are a bit less likely to hire a good aeronautical engineer.

I have a degree in Aerospace Engineering and an MS in Management, and have seen this first hand. The fact is that the undergraduate courses in business or engineering are not really that different. A more generic undergraduate degree is preferable.

I will say that getting an Engineering degree is the most difficult thing I've ever done. It was far more difficult than anything I did in 20 years in the Air Force or 15 years in the private sector. My Masters degree was a cakewalk by comparison.