Atlantis is going to blast off for the last time...

steingar

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steingar
So what's your favorite Space movie?

I'd probably have to go with Star Wars myself, but there are lots of others to consider.
 
probably 2001
 
I watched it. It's the end of an era. American kids can no longer grow up dreaming of being astronauts.
 
Think of all the people that will be put out of work as a result. Not just astronuts but the support teams.
 
I can remember watching the shuttle launches in elementary school. Most kids took the 'free' time to take a nap. I was too amazed to look away.

We have officially outsourced innovation.
 
I can still recall the first launch in April of 1981. I was privileged to be there in person. I had worked on some of the launch communication systems for the Shuttle as well as other rockets. It was a great time to be involved in the space program. In the 1970s I had visited the KSC and saw the platforms and gantries that had carried the Apollo and Skylab missions, little did I realize that just a few years later I would actually be part of the program. I was out at the launch pad the night before the first shuttle launch and got to see it up close as it was readied for launch. Over the next couple of years I would get to be very close to the orbiter, actually getting to stick my head into it once and to touch it. Like that Start Trek movie line it becomes much more real when you have a tactile interaction with it.

The morning of the first launch was actually a back up day, the launch had been canceled the day before for some technical problem. There were so many people just off of the Cape that we all slept at work that night for fear that we would never be able to get back to work. That morning as the clocked ticked away I was truly happy to be there and experience history.

As I watched this last launch today I am saddened a little. But I am also joyous that NASA is going to still continue and get back into exploration instead of low earth orbit experiments. We will have a little break of manned missions from the US, but with the ISS and Russian systems we will still have Americans in space. This is a lot different than the post-Apollo era.
 
We have officially outsourced innovation.

BS. NASA was never about innovation. It was ossified at birth.

Now, after 60 years of government lameness when it comes to spaceflight, the Fed monopoly is being dissolved so that the true innovators can take a swing at the problem. It'll be interesting to see what spacex et al do, but you can bet it will be better than anything NASA ever came up with.
 
We have officially outsourced innovation.
Most everything associated with the space shuttle program was outsourced years ago. NASA has actually very little to do with the technology of the program. NASA oversees contractors that do all of the work. The innovation at NASA is in the area of new programs and unmanned systems that were hardly ever covered by the press. You have to remember that the Space Shuttle was dreamed up in the 60's approved in the early 70s and designed in the late 70s. There has not been much innovation for 40 years in that program. The costs associated with the space trucking business also sucked most of the funding from NASA, leaving it with little else to spend.
 
60 years of government lameness when it comes to spaceflight
Really?

Lame space flight. I suppose Spain should be accused of lame sailing for paying Columbus to find a passage to India and instead discovering the new world. I suppose it was lame of Jefferson to ask Lewis and Clark to map the LA purchase. Really, lame? When one thinks of all that we have discovered and accomplished thanks to the space program, lame would not be anywhere on that list.
 
BS. NASA was never about innovation. It was ossified at birth.

Now, after 60 years of government lameness when it comes to spaceflight, the Fed monopoly is being dissolved so that the true innovators can take a swing at the problem. It'll be interesting to see what spacex et al do, but you can bet it will be better than anything NASA ever came up with.

As long as it doesn't become so bogged down with over-regulation, I'm all for it. I just don't want the US to lose its presence in the 'space race' that it helped build.
 
So what's your favorite Space movie?

I'd probably have to go with Star Wars myself, but there are lots of others to consider.

Spaceballs.

So, Lonestar, now you understand that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.
 
I can remember watching the shuttle launches in elementary school. Most kids took the 'free' time to take a nap. I was too amazed to look away.

We have officially outsourced innovation.

Well, to be fair, we've lost our manned launch capability. A large part of NASA and space research community in general are probably very happy because, to them, unmanned exploration is much more important.
 
Really?

Lame space flight. I suppose Spain should be accused of lame sailing for paying Columbus to find a passage to India and instead discovering the new world. I suppose it was lame of Jefferson to ask Lewis and Clark to map the LA purchase. Really, lame? When one thinks of all that we have discovered and accomplished thanks to the space program, lame would not be anywhere on that list.

NASA wasn't any of those things. You might as well throw fighting the 2nd world war into your list, it's just as irrelevant.

Do you think a few sailors dying on one of Columbus's voyages would've resulted in an end to manned sailing for years? Do you think Jefferson would've scrapped the L&C expedition if a horse had stumbled breaking its rider's neck? Do you think they took anything like the approach that NASA took. No.

The problem, and the difference, comes down to vision. L&C weren't envisioned as the only people that would ever head west, just the vanguard for the US. Columbus wasn't the only person who would ever make that trip, just the pathfinder. NASA, on the other hand, started out on day one with the idea that they were not leading humanity, but propelling a few humans. They started out by creating heros and a mythos of the select few, and enforced the idea that humanity had to stay behind while these few went forward and told us what they found. If the gov't had declared that the next step after landing on the moon was to send 50,000 people there, to set up a permanent base, NASA'd...well, I wouldn't have made my comment because NASA as we know it today would've been abolished in the 1970s for failing.
 
Most everything associated with the space shuttle program was outsourced years ago. NASA has actually very little to do with the technology of the program. NASA oversees contractors that do all of the work. The innovation at NASA is in the area of new programs and unmanned systems that were hardly ever covered by the press. You have to remember that the Space Shuttle was dreamed up in the 60's approved in the early 70s and designed in the late 70s. There has not been much innovation for 40 years in that program. The costs associated with the space trucking business also sucked most of the funding from NASA, leaving it with little else to spend.

I understand that NASA hasn't been doing the active 'development' of systems, but they have been the driving force behind the development. They need a computer that does x computations per second that fits in a space x inches wide - they put out a bid and someone in private industry develops it. A few months later, the development that was done for NASA ends up in the public's hand.

My biggest worry is that NASA doesn't keep pushing the envelope with contract requirements and simply starts using components that have been developed elsewhere without driving innovation.
 
Spaceballs.

So, Lonestar, now you understand that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.

I see you have the schwartz.... and it's as big as mine.
 
"Forbidden Planet".
 
I am really glad I got to visit Mission Control in Houston before they shut 'er down. When Obama cancelled the follow-on to the shuttle in 2010, everyone there knew what was to come. Judgement Day has arrived.

According to the paper, they've lost 6800 jobs. Luckily, Texas is booming, and most of them have been snatched up.

I couldn't watch the launch this morning. My sense of loss and shared national shame was just too much.
 
According to the paper, they've lost 6800 jobs. Luckily, Texas is booming, and most of them have been snatched up.

I couldn't watch the launch this morning. My sense of loss and shared national shame was just too much.

The loss of institutional knowledge is probably more pertinant than the loss of jobs.

I would have watched but had business meeting instead. Oh well.

National shame? Over the Shuttle program? Not me. I get a sense of national shame over a lot of other things, not this one.
 
So what's your favorite Space movie?

In the Shadow of the Moon


Even though I grew up with the space race I never had a proper appreciation for it until I saw this movie.
 
Best seat in the house?

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There was recently a movie called Moon with Sam Rockewll and the voice of Kevin Spacey. Not much of anyone else. Well worth a look. One of my favorites.

Those criticizing NASA are out of their pharging minds. I rarely read such idiotic tripe outside official government documents. Their success in exploring the solar system has been as successful as it has unprecedented. Their scientific missions have been nothing short of spectacular.

The science is the main show in my mind. Manned space flight has never been anything more than a big publicity stunt. NASA and its contractors have had to launch highly experimental and dangerous vehicles with the whole world watching every time. Given the number of crashes in GA, where the designs are well-tested and simple by comparison, I don't think that poorly of NASA's crash rate.
 
Given the number of crashes in GA, where the designs are well-tested and simple by comparison, I don't think that poorly of NASA's crash rate.
It isn't the crash rate, it's the attitude they exhibit before and after crashes that is unacceptable.

You may think that the science was the thing, but science is just a means to an end. Don't get me wrong, I love science... but to mangle Ruskin for a moment, science without joy is base. Unless we can do more than science for the sake of science, there is no point. The joy which ennobles science is humanity's freedom.

Until we get humanity out of this one tiny gravity well and into the larger universe we're always gonna be one crazy person away from extinction. That risk is unacceptable and escaping it is the single most important mission of any space endeavor. NASA has not only failed at the larger mission, they have helped to hold back all of mankind from that larger mission, first by accepting the monopoly on US space flight and then by abusing that monopoly to create a moribund culture where no failure is acceptable, except the failure to actually do in the first place. To borrow from Stan Marsh, they aren't just lame, they're slowing down the progress of all mankind!
 
It isn't the crash rate, it's the attitude they exhibit before and after crashes that is unacceptable.

You may think that the science was the thing, but science is just a means to an end. Don't get me wrong, I love science... but to mangle Ruskin for a moment, science without joy is base. Unless we can do more than science for the sake of science, there is no point. The joy which ennobles science is humanity's freedom.

The mission of NASA was always scientific from its inception.

Until we get humanity out of this one tiny gravity well and into the larger universe we're always gonna be one crazy person away from extinction. That risk is unacceptable and escaping it is the single most important mission of any space endeavor.

While I don't disagree with this sentiment, I do think it is unattainable for mankind at this juncture. It would require complete disarmament and quite a bit more social cohesion to generate the resources necessary. I doubt it could be done by one nation, even one as wealthy as ours.

NASA has not only failed at the larger mission, they have helped to hold back all of mankind from that larger mission, first by accepting the monopoly on US space flight and then by abusing that monopoly to create a moribund culture where no failure is acceptable, except the failure to actually do in the first place. To borrow from Stan Marsh, they aren't just lame, they're slowing down the progress of all mankind!

NASA didn't fail at that mission because they were never tasked with it. The missions with which they were tasked were completed, some very very well, some satisfactory, and some less so.

NASA never enforced any kind of monopoly. There have been space agencies in other lands overseas the whole time of NASA's existence. Nothing else happened in the US because there was never before a concentration of wealth in hands that wanted to carry out space science.
 
The mission of NASA was always scientific from its inception.


"The aeronautical and space activities of the United States shall be conducted so as to contribute materially to one or more of the following objectives:

(1) The expansion of human knowledge of phenomena in the atmosphere and space;


(2) The improvement of the usefulness, performance, speed, safety, and efficiency of aeronautical and space vehicles;



(3) The development and operation of vehicles capable of carrying instruments, equipment, supplies and living organisms through space;



(4) The establishment of long-range studies of the potential benefits to be gained from, the opportunities for, and the problems involved in the utilization of aeronautical and space activities for peaceful and scientific purposes.



(5) The preservation of the role of the United States as a leader in aeronautical and space science and technology and in the application thereof to the conduct of peaceful activities within and outside the atmosphere.



(6) The making available to agencies directly concerned with national defenses of discoveries that have military value or significance, and the furnishing by such agencies, to the civilian agency established to direct and control nonmilitary aeronautical and space activities, of information as to discoveries which have value or significance to that agency;



(7) Cooperation by the United States with other nations and groups of nations in work done pursuant to this Act and in the peaceful application of the results, thereof; and



(8) The most effective utilization of the scientific and engineering resources of the United States, with close cooperation among all interested agencies of the United States in order to avoid unnecessary duplication of effort, facilities, and equipment."


That's one of the first declarations in the act which created NASA. While science is present, it is not the only thing present. Therefore you cannot say "the purpose" of NASA was any one thing, unless all eight of those combine to provide that one thing.

All eight combine to help detach humanity from this planet. Science is just part of that.

While I don't disagree with this sentiment, I do think it is unattainable for mankind at this juncture. It would require complete disarmament and quite a bit more social cohesion to generate the resources necessary. I doubt it could be done by one nation, even one as wealthy as ours.

I don't think it can be done by a nation. However, it can be done by people. "Unattainable" is what you tell your kids about cookie jars...it doesn't apply in the real world.

NASA didn't fail at that mission because they were never tasked with it. The missions with which they were tasked were completed, some very very well, some satisfactory, and some less so.

NASA never enforced any kind of monopoly. There have been space agencies in other lands overseas the whole time of NASA's existence. Nothing else happened in the US because there was never before a concentration of wealth in hands that wanted to carry out space science.

From the Space Act of 1958:


"(8) The most effective utilization of the scientific and engineering resources of the United States, with close cooperation among all interested agencies of the United States in order to avoid unnecessary duplication of effort, facilities, and equipment."


In other words... to be the center of a monopoly. They launched into it immediately with their private sector contractors with their patent policies. Reagan was the first to try to make things easy for commercial space operations, and there are plenty of NASA types who think the worst mistake they made was letting Scaled Composites mess around in "their" playground a few years ago.
 
NASA didn't fail at that mission because they were never tasked with it. The missions with which they were tasked were completed, some very very well, some satisfactory, and some less so.

Precisely. Our national shame with the demise of NASA's manned space program has very little to do with NASA -- and everything to do with ourselves.

NASA was just the vehicle. We, the People were the drivers. The demise of our manned space program is our failure -- not NASA's.
 
(8) The most effective utilization of the scientific and engineering resources of the United States, with close cooperation among all interested agencies of the United States in order to avoid unnecessary duplication of effort, facilities, and equipment."


In other words... to be the center of a monopoly. They launched into it immediately with their private sector contractors with their patent policies. Reagan was the first to try to make things easy for commercial space operations, and there are plenty of NASA types who think the worst mistake they made was letting Scaled Composites mess around in "their" playground a few years ago.

Can you explain how, with this verbiage still in effect, that Space X and Virgin Galactic have been able to launch space ventures with the blessing of the Federal government. This should be impossible in an enforced NASA monopoly.
 
Precisely. Our national shame with the demise of NASA's manned space program has very little to do with NASA -- and everything to do with ourselves.

NASA was just the vehicle. We, the People were the drivers. The demise of our manned space program is our failure -- not NASA's.

Forgive me, but if you look at the list of objectives with which NASA was tasked, they succeeded at all of them. They were never asked to establish colonies on heavenly bodies (actually, W. asked, but didn't give them the resources to do it).

I feel no shame at the demise of the shuttle program. It was a poorly designed vehicle from the start, and its technology is long out of date. I doubt strongly that our manned space program has halted, though would not mind seeing it do so as long as their missions are just publicity stunts, which is mostly what they are.

It is unfortunate that an inexpensive alternative to the shuttle was never devised, but then again, that is what private enterprise, the guys now taxed with our space ventures, are supposed to be good at. NASA was nowhere near ready with its next generation of launch vehicles, there hasn't even been a test flight. So some reliance on foreign launch vehicles was an inevitability for some period of time.

Look, I'd like to see a permanent human existence in outer space. But to have one that is self-sustaining (which is has to be in order to be meaningful, at least in my opinion) would take an order of magnitude greater input of resources than has been committed to space so far, and that commitment has to be continual, something our commitment has never been. Given these obstacles, I see space flight as unattainable by human beings. If there were no more war and everyone was equally committed to the outcome, then yes, we could do it. But that isn't characteristic behavior of human beings.
 
Can you explain how, with this verbiage still in effect, that Space X and Virgin Galactic have been able to launch space ventures with the blessing of the Federal government.


Sure, they amended the act to add a 9th reason:

"(9) The preservation of the United States preeminent position in aeronautics and space through research and technology development related to associated manufacturing processes."

Once staying preeminent was part of their mandate they had to make room for the private sector. ;)

Giving agencies conflicting mandates is soo much fun. Sorta like how the FAA was created "...to provide for the regulation and promotion of civil aviation...
 
Spaceballs.

So, Lonestar, now you understand that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.

+1 !!!

Or if you were posting in SZ: "I see your Schwartz is as big as mine!"

Felt a twinge of sadness that this week is the last week I'll ever have to set up a crontab on the IRLP Linux box to connect to Reflector 9877 to rebroadcast Shuttle comm audio to the Front Range through our VHF Amateur repeaters.

http://status.irlp.net/index.php?PSTART=11&nodeid=9870

And...

http://status.irlp.net/index.php?PSTART=11&nodeid=3990

No comment on the State of NASA debate. I believe it's rooted in much deeper problems in the American psyche.
 
Forgive me, but if you look at the list of objectives with which NASA was tasked, they succeeded at all of them. They were never asked to establish colonies on heavenly bodies (actually, W. asked, but didn't give them the resources to do it).

I feel no shame at the demise of the shuttle program. It was a poorly designed vehicle from the start, and its technology is long out of date. I doubt strongly that our manned space program has halted, though would not mind seeing it do so as long as their missions are just publicity stunts, which is mostly what they are.

It is unfortunate that an inexpensive alternative to the shuttle was never devised, but then again, that is what private enterprise, the guys now taxed with our space ventures, are supposed to be good at. NASA was nowhere near ready with its next generation of launch vehicles, there hasn't even been a test flight. So some reliance on foreign launch vehicles was an inevitability for some period of time.

Look, I'd like to see a permanent human existence in outer space. But to have one that is self-sustaining (which is has to be in order to be meaningful, at least in my opinion) would take an order of magnitude greater input of resources than has been committed to space so far, and that commitment has to be continual, something our commitment has never been. Given these obstacles, I see space flight as unattainable by human beings. If there were no more war and everyone was equally committed to the outcome, then yes, we could do it. But that isn't characteristic behavior of human beings.

Um, I *think* I'm agreeing with you. NASA's failures (failure to develop a vehicle that could build a space station in an orbit that was useful for interplanetary exploration; failure to develop a follow on vehicle to the Shuttle; failure to develop Orion on-budget, etc.) were not NASA's failures -- they were a failure of leadership at the highest levels of this country.

It wasn't NASA's fault that their mission was poorly defined. If their goals were continuously changed, that wasn't NASA's fault. There has been no clear space strategy since the Johnson Administration. It became just another bloated, wasteful government program.

As I said, the failures of NASA were not NASA's fault -- they were ours.
 
Um, I *think* I'm agreeing with you. NASA's failures (failure to develop a vehicle that could build a space station in an orbit that was useful for interplanetary exploration; failure to develop a follow on vehicle to the Shuttle; failure to develop Orion on-budget, etc.) were not NASA's failures -- they were a failure of leadership at the highest levels of this country.

It wasn't NASA's fault that their mission was poorly defined. If their goals were continuously changed, that wasn't NASA's fault. There has been no clear space strategy since the Johnson Administration. It became just another bloated, wasteful government program.

As I said, the failures of NASA were not NASA's fault -- they were ours.

It also wasn't NASA's fault that the mission was not properly funded.

Don't like the design of the shuttle? Part of the blame belongs to those idiots in Congress that didn't fund the development so that NASA had to kludge something together with those stupid SRBs.
 
Half hilarious, half sad...

USSR Wins Space Race As U.S. Shuts Down Shuttle Program

MOSCOW, USSR—Less than a week after the return of the Atlantis orbiter marked the end of the U.S. space shuttle program, the crowded streets and textile factories of Moscow erupted in celebration as the USSR officially declared victory over the United States in the Space Race.

"At long last, our great Soviet republic has conquered the West and achieved technological and ideological superiority over America," Kremlin representative Sergei Voronin said Wednesday, announcing the achievement to an audience of joyous beet farmers and steel factory laborers assembled in Red Square.
 
Actually it's similar to the bankruptcy games businesses play.

The first to declare bankruptcy and walk away from a bad balance sheet, gets to start over first.
 
Half hilarious, half sad...
Frankly I doubt this is meant as a true story. Parts of it don't make sense at all, there is no Yugoslavia, there were no victory celebrations they are talking about, there is no USSR, Gorbachev or Obama did not make such statements, Gorbachev was never even a Premier (prime minister)!, it is obviously some sort of satire. Yes, I think It was meant to be hilarious.
 
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Frankly I doubt this is meant as a true story. Parts of it don't make sense at all, there is no Yugoslavia, there were no victory celebrations they are talking about, there is no USSR, Gorbachev or Obama did not make such statements, Gorbachev was never even a Premier (prime minister)!, it is obviously some sort of satire. Yes, I think It was meant to be hilarious.

Ya think!?! The Onion is, by definition, a news satire / parody organization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Onion
 
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