ATC User fees a reality

[Kyle Thornley]

For Mothers day I flew to my Sisters home in Solon OH (Cleveburg sub) and landed at Kent State University. Coming back we decided to overfly the house to give the kiddies some thrills and a little wing wave. This route took us to the North and caused us to cross either Cuyahoga County or Burke Lakefront, both of which are Class D. Couldn't raise CGF so we tried BKL. They cleared us over mid-field and approved the frequency change as soon as we got on the North side of the field.

Imagine my surprise when I received the invoice from the City of Cleveland's Department of Port Control for a landing fee at BKL. No big deal really, they agreed to remove it from their books, but for a second I was thinking 'you little buggers that's one way of charging me for ATC services'. I wonder if it was an honest mistake or if this happens often and some folks just pay it without thinking. One of the reasons my wife goes over every bill with a fine tooth comb, we've had more than just a few unexplained phone calls show up on the bill along with some double charges on the Visa statement. How many are just glitches and how many might be a see if they just pay it?

 

[sere]

For Mothers day I flew to my Sisters home in Solon OH (Cleveburg sub) and landed at Kent State University. Coming back we decided to overfly the house to give the kiddies some thrills and a little wing wave. This route took us to the North and caused us to cross either Cuyahoga County or Burke Lakefront, both of which are Class D. Couldn't raise CGF so we tried BKL. They cleared us over mid-field and approved the frequency change as soon as we got on the North side of the field.

Imagine my surprise when I received the invoice from the City of Cleveland's Department of Port Control for a landing fee at BKL. No big deal really, they agreed to remove it from their books, but for a second I was thinking 'you little buggers that's one way of charging me for ATC services'. I wonder if it was an honest mistake or if this happens often and some folks just pay it without thinking. One of the reasons my wife goes over every bill with a fine tooth comb, we've had more than just a few unexplained phone calls show up on the bill along with some double charges on the Visa statement. How many are just glitches and how many might be a see if they just pay it?

How many of you out there other that ATP's who make a living flying have had to pay a landing fee? I have never landed anywhere that it was required. And I have been in and out of a lot of class B and C Airports.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Vancouver BC will usually send a small bill.

Farmingdale (ton ?) NY, charges for each T&G last I flew there.

How many of you out there other that ATP's who make a living flying have had to pay a landing fee? I have never landed anywhere that it was required. And I have been in and out of a lot of class B and C Airports.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

How many of you out there other that ATP's who make a living flying have had to pay a landing fee? I have never landed anywhere that it was required. And I have been in and out of a lot of class B and C Airports.

Teterboro, NJ
JFK, NY
SFO, CA
??

Above in Mooney or similar small GA.

 

[bstratt]

Block Island, St. Louis Int'l.

 

[Ken Ibold]

I paid something like $15 at Miami International once. And there's a little grass strip near here that established a $5 per landing fee when a large flight school started using the runway for soft field practice. The school folded, and the landing fee is still on the books, but is not collected.

 

[Kyle Thornley]

Oh, I've paid a bunch of landing fees. BKL (when you really land there), Midway charges a hefty one and so did Meigs (RIP). Buffalo was about $8 three years ago and Put-In-Bay has been $9 for as long as I can remember. Most of them have ranged form 5-10 bucks and are usually only at the larger airports, but BKL is the only one that charged me by mail, the others are collected at the FBO.

 

[ejensen]

Telluride, CO TEX had landing fees, light single is $15 IIRC.

 

[sierra]

Farmingdale (ton ?) NY, charges for each T&G last I flew there.

Farmingdale.

FRG is a state operated airport. the state mails a bill for 2.50 for each landing to the owner of the airplane unless they catch you on the ramp!

EVEN if you are based there, you will pay for each time your wheels touch. I tried not to bounce too much

Brookhaven HWV will charge you for each landing as well, unless you are based there. Then the fee is waived.

 

[poadeleted20]

In the case posted, I think it's just a boo-boo. Many tower-controlled airports use the tower log to bill for landing fees rather than have the FBO's in the loop, and in this case, you had a log entry with no landing, which isn't near as common as log entries WITH landings.

As for paying landing fees, I couldn't count the number of times. Frankly, I've no problem at all paying an airport a few bucks for the use of the facilities as long as the price is reasonable and in proportion to the demand I place on their system. I feel better when the choice is "fuel or fee," but I don't get upset unless the fee is outrageous or a surprise.

 

[poadeleted3]

I've got no problem paying a reasonable landing fee when I use someone's airport. I want to have a place to park my plane, and if airports aren't making money, they won't be there. I pay to park my car when I go downtown, I don't see why a plane should be any different. I've been known to chase people down to pay the parking fee if they tried not to collect.

 

[SkyHog]

So far, I've only paid one landing fee: $6 at Nantucket. It was worth it.

 

[Henning]

How many of you out there other that ATP's who make a living flying have had to pay a landing fee? I have never landed anywhere that it was required. And I have been in and out of a lot of class B and C Airports.

Hooo boy,... payed landing fees?...lot's of times. Catalina was $5 per until I got my $75 month tie down. Anybody wanna buy the night ops radio and lights proceedure? Many other airports as well. Usually they're waived with a fuel purchase, but sometimes not. SFO charged as well as LAX when I went in there to pick up people.

 

[Maverick]

How many of you out there other that ATP's who make a living flying have had to pay a landing fee? I have never landed anywhere that it was required. And I have been in and out of a lot of class B and C Airports.

I pay landing fees every time I visit Mackinaw Island here in Michigan. The only other time I've paid a landing fee was when I flew into Chicago Miegs Field and it was a steep one at that. Plus handling fee plus parking fee.

Jeannie

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Even when not well mantained, airports hold a lot of acreage so regardless of condition, I've never had any problem with LDG, handling or parking fees at ARPTs and if all ARPTs had these fees, I think we'd see a lot fewer ARPT closures.

 

[sere]

Thanks for all the answers. I have heard of these before but never have I had one asked for. I was wondering if the fbo tie down fee was being called a landing fee. However, even at that I have never had to pay a tie down fee as I almost always buy fuel from them. At one location in Western Kansas when I flew up to visit family the FBO even put my plane in a hanger overnight for me and would not take anything for it. It looks like a great range of differance between locations but a lot of the fees are on the East side of the US. How about the West Coast?

 

[mikea]

I have never yet paid a landing fee, in spite of living in Daley's Chicago, in spite of having landed at Meigs probably 20-30 times.









The fee was waived for the Young Eagles rallies at Meigs and I have not as yet visited Midway or O'Hare. B)

My old girlfriend knew an O'Hare controller who said I could make a 2 AM landing some morning if I wanted. I've talked to pilots who have done such with a touch and go and touch and go and touch and go and touch and go on the 13,000 foot 32R.

 

[silver-eagle]

I've been tapped for landing fees. The most so far has been the fee collected at Albany in 1996 during my long XC. If I recall correctly, it was $8. Most have varied between 4 and 6$. Westerley RI collects a $5 charge but mostly on the honor system. In fact, the guy got a chuckle out of me coming around JUST to pay the fee.
I'd rather hand them a $5 and have them there the next time than to have them disappear. Now if it were $100, I might think twice about landing there.

 

[azure]

Thanks for all the answers. I have heard of these before but never have I had one asked for. I was wondering if the fbo tie down fee was being called a landing fee.

Million Air at BKL does exactly that - and it's a hefty fee, way beyond what I would consider reasonable. I have no problem with nominal ramp fees and have paid them without complaint at MCD ($11) and 3W2 ($9). At BKL this March I was charged $38 to tie down a single engine airplane for 4 hours at Million Air... and that's NOT counting the REAL landing fee ($5) which, as Kyle posted, comes from the Port Authority at CLE.

Liz

 

[Henning]

My old girlfriend knew an O'Hare controller who said I could make a 2 AM landing some morning if I wanted. I've talked to pilots who have done such with a touch and go and touch and go and touch and go and touch and go on the 13,000 foot 32R.

Big runways like that are fun for doing "Engine out on take-off" practice.

 

[Anthony]

I'd rather pay a landing fee than to park my car if the airport is convenient to my destination. Its usually a lot less than parking, especially in a downtown district.

 

[Henning]

Million Air at BKL does exactly that - and it's a hefty fee, way beyond what I would consider reasonable. I have no problem with nominal ramp fees and have paid them without complaint at MCD ($11) and 3W2 ($9). At BKL this March I was charged $38 to tie down a single engine airplane for 4 hours at Million Air... and that's NOT counting the REAL landing fee ($5) which, as Kyle posted, comes from the Port Authority at CLE.

Liz

Wow, times are a changing. Million Air @ PSP never used to charge me a dime and we'd ome in all the time to defrost in their jacuzzi. Didn't even always get fuel.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Landed at PSP couple weeks ago and Signature had a ramp fee, but if you purchase seven gallons of gas or more, it is waived. The gas is over $4.00 per gallon. It's a pain if you're just flying in to pick someone up or drop them off and want to make a quick turn. You have to go in and pay something--gas or ramp fee. Executive (formerly Million Air) didn't have 100 LL last time I stopped in; so, over to the other side and their ramp fee again.

Best,

Dave

 

[Maverick]

Wow, times are a changing. Million Air @ PSP never used to charge me a dime and we'd ome in all the time to defrost in their jacuzzi. Didn't even always get fuel.

I went into Millionaire at Addison airport in the North Dallas area and there were no outrageous fees there either. Must be a Burke Lakefront thing kinda like Chicago Meigs was. Signature was the FBO at Meigs when I was there. Of course I've heard a lot of complaints about Signature at other airports as well.

Jeannie

 

[Carol]

I went into Millionaire at Addison airport in the North Dallas area and there were no outrageous fees there either. Must be a Burke Lakefront thing kinda like Chicago Meigs was. Signature was the FBO at Meigs when I was there. Of course I've heard a lot of complaints about Signature at other airports as well.

Jeannie

Signature at KJAX (Jacksonville, Florida) told me they discount fuel on the weekends but you have to ask for it. It's not automatically generated by "the computer." All Signature locations, not just JAX. Also, at KVQQ (Jacksonville Cecil Field) the Signature staff member told me they usually will waive the ramp feel unless they felt like the pilot was an a******. His words, not mine That may not be true at every Signature location however.

 

[Bonanza]

Signature at KJAX (Jacksonville, Florida) told me they discount fuel on the weekends but you have to ask for it. It's not automatically generated by "the computer." All Signature locations, not just JAX. Also, at KVQQ (Jacksonville Cecil Field) the Signature staff member told me they usually will waive the ramp feel unless they felt like the pilot was an a******. His words, not mine That may not be true at every Signature location however.

Got a $0.50c per gallon discount at Signature at Palm Springs last weekend. Didn't have to ask. They did charge $15 for Ramp Parking overnight. Maybe I was an a******, I don't think I was They did waive the $23 "Handling Charge".
Stephen.

 

[wsuffa]

Best as I recall, a number (most?) of the MillionAir's are franchises. They set their own rates. Some of the ramp charges are allocation of rent charged by the city.

PSP is OK, but I like KTRM as a good alternate.

 

[Everskyward]

Millionair DAL has a Jag as a crew car, at least they did last year. I thought I was hearing things when the woman at the counter handed me the keys.

 

[Big Bird]

Re: WHAT ATC User fees a reality?

I'm confused about why this thread is entitled as it is. I missed the part where Cleveland's Department of Port Control morphed into our federal Air Traffic Control (ATC). Or, are we referring to ATC user fees from some other ATC?

Fees for nav services are charged to pilots operating in Canada. I receive an invoice from NavCanada each quarter for about $15 USD. NavCanada is a quazi-private company which provides weather and other services aviation services, (like on airport weather briefing specialists at nearly every airport in Canada) for a reasonable quarterly fee.

Many people wring their hands about "user fees". And, I don' deny that the subject is a live topic; bureaucrats talk about it to keep the Congress from getting involvedB) . But, from my experience with the system in use by our neighbor to the north, it isn't anything like the final nail in the aviation coffin. Any more than BKL charging a landing fee is an "ATC user fee".

Just my $.02

 

[azure]

Re: WHAT ATC User fees a reality?

Many people wring their hands about "user fees". And, I don' deny that the subject is a live topic; bureaucrats talk about it to keep the Congress from getting involvedB) . But, from my experience with the system in use by our neighbor to the north, it isn't anything like the final nail in the aviation coffin. Any more than BKL charging a landing fee is an "ATC user fee".

In fairness, what the Cleveland Port Authority tried to charge Kyle wasn't a landing fee because he hadn't landed at BKL, just talked to their tower to transit the Class D. I'd sure call that a user fee if they had insisted that he pay up.

Liz

 

[pete177]

Never paid a landing fee

I would probably get back in my plane and leave
Dont my taxes and fuel surcharges already pay for public use runways?

 

[ejensen]

Not always. There are Private, public use airports. My home base, 3V5 has never taken a dime of public money.

Eric

 

[Kyle Thornley]

Sorry if the title mislead anyone, I was just poking a little fun at the system. I hadn't landed at BKL, but still got the bill, and I am sure it was just an honest mistake, but it got me to thinking how many honest mistakes just get paid without thinking? And then I started thinking about actual user fees and if I was going to get charged a fee every time I called a tower to fly over would I start going around? If I did that would I still use FF?

It seemed to spiral down into doing things that might hamper the system rather than help it. I've talked to controllers who work at DTW and they say they'd rather have you talking to them. They can see you on their radar making the circle around the B airspace and would love to be in contact so they could give you some traffic help.

 

[Anthony]

Never paid a landing fee

I would probably get back in my plane and leave
Dont my taxes and fuel surcharges already pay for public use runways?

This seems to be more common on the east and west coast. On the east coast, many of the landing fees are small and often waived with a fuel purchase. I have no problem with this. Since moving to CO, I haven't paid any landing fees, nor had to buy fuel to avoid a landing fee.

 

[Henning]

Never paid a landing fee

I would probably get back in my plane and leave
Dont my taxes and fuel surcharges already pay for public use runways?

There is a difference between public use and publicly owned. There are many small private airports that are privately owned.