ATC help with forced landing- question

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Unregistered4228

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I've always had one question while listening to ATC during engine failure emergencies. Basic situation: Night. Engine out. 6000 ft AGL. Single engine Cessna. IFR
While ATC is doing the best they can to vector you to an airport, there comes a time where you won't make it to the airport. Everyone knows where you are but YOU can't see anything on the ground. I would think ATC could say "hey, there's a field, or farm, or flat land, x amount of miles to the west" for instance. I mean at the very least can't someone pull up google earth right quick??
I only ask this because I was listening to an ATC playback of an engine out during night and the pilot LUCKILY landed in a field. He literally said he aimed for a dark spot and hoped for the best. Why couldn't ATC let him know there was some flat land around? There was 0 mention from ATC about the type of terrain in the area. Am I missing something?
 
I've heard ATC vector a pilot in distress towards an interstate somewhere in Utah. Lots of dark spots out there would be very unfriendly. Seems they called the Sheriff's Office too. Any assistance at all will be great when you need it.
 
Unless the particular ATC has personal knowledge of the area, he would not know where the farms or fields are. He has the same VFR chart available that the pilot has.
 
BillTIZ said:
Unless the particular ATC has personal knowledge of the area, he would not know where the farms or fields are. He has the same VFR chart available that the pilot has.
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Sure, that's understandable, but that's my point. It can't be much to throw a computer in there with some GPS mapping. Jump on and get a quick overview of the area and terrain.
 
Center and TRACON radar isn't accurate enough to vector to a target as small as a farm field, even if a suitable map were available.
 
They know their general area but no way they could know if there's an open field below you. In some cases they have a coastline map but that's about it.

Trying to pull Google earth up on a seperate device and try and correlate that to a basic monochrome map would be next to impossible. Even if they had a map that showed individual fields, trying to relay that information to the pilot in any useful way would be problematic. They'd have no idea which field is suitable for for the pilot (size, plowed, hills, wires).

If you could superimpose some satellite map over their scope in theory the ASR would be accurate enough to vector you to a field. That's if the controller was comfortable in vectoring you to somewhere other than an airport. Not to mention they'll lose you on radar (non ADS-B) long before you are even close to the field they're vectoring you for.
 
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Don’t know if this is relevant or not, but here’s my 2 cents.

Had a co-worker who was a former air traffic controller. He was one of the guys that got fired back during the Reagan era when they had the NATCA strike. Anyway, I was talking to him regarding an accident that had happened a day or two before. My recollection on this is a little unclear, but as I recall there was an Air Force or ANG fighter or fighter trainer who got into trouble somewhere around Indianapolis. As I recall, it was a major engine failure. He got ATC on the radio, but it was fairly obvious early on he wasn’t going to make an airport. The pilot eventually ejected and the plane ended up hitting an apartment building, killing and injuring people on the ground.

I asked him about what ATC said to the pilot. I wondered why that hadn’t just sent him “out of town.” You don’t have to get too far out of Indy and you’re are back in farm country. If the pilot was going to eject, wouldn’t it be better to send him out to “the sticks” rather than have him punch out over town?

His answer to me was that as the controller, if he were to do something like that, he was setting himself up for a lawsuit. He told me something like “OK, so say you tell the pilot to turn south, because that will get him out of the populated area and heading for farm country. The pilot punches out, and the plane comes down on the Jones Farm, killing Farmer Jones and his family. You gave him a direction, so you are going to be liable.”

I said to him, what would you say to the pilot if he said, “look, just point me out of town, I don’t want to come down in the city?” He said. “I’d wouldn’t say a thing.”
 
What McFly said. If you ever get a chance to see a TRACON go and look. The scopes aren't go show the controller much of anything useful in this situation. The only thing that comes to mind is if you're near a visual checkpoint which the controller knows has like an open field or something. In addition to that, the workload a controller has when you declare is gonna be very high. His priority is going to be getting other planes out of your way so that you can do whatever you, the pilot-in-command, feels necessary. They can't fly the plane for you, you're the one with the mark 1 eyeball in the cockpit.
 
Why do you want to put a task on ATC ,that can be done by the pilot if he has a GPS. ATC is more than willing to vector you to the nearest airport. Have to be carefull of a dark spot. Could be a lake,and now your in a ditching situation.
 
Unregistered4228 said:
I've always had one question while listening to ATC during engine failure emergencies. Basic situation: Night. Engine out. 6000 ft AGL. Single engine Cessna. IFR
While ATC is doing the best they can to vector you to an airport, there comes a time where you won't make it to the airport. Everyone knows where you are but YOU can't see anything on the ground. I would think ATC could say "hey, there's a field, or farm, or flat land, x amount of miles to the west" for instance. I mean at the very least can't someone pull up google earth right quick??
I only ask this because I was listening to an ATC playback of an engine out during night and the pilot LUCKILY landed in a field. He literally said he aimed for a dark spot and hoped for the best. Why couldn't ATC let him know there was some flat land around? There was 0 mention from ATC about the type of terrain in the area. Am I missing something?
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Because ATC doesn't have that level of information, simple as that. We are moving in that direction with ADS-B, and with terrain mapping and SVT, if we can integrate that with Google Earth, we can have virtual Day VFR severe clear conditions right in the cockpit in night 0/0 conditions.

But we don't have that yet. That requires a level of resources we are not willing to commit because they will not show a direct profit. This is a service that is being provided by an agency that is begrudged every dollar it spends, and pilots refuse to add one more dime to. You would be amazed at the resistance you would find in the pilot community to such a system regardless the safety benefits provided, because they would rather not spend that money.

This is the reality of being PIC, you are responsible, no one else. You made the decision to fly at night, it's up to you to find the place to land regardless where that may be. Anybody else is just assisting you with what resources they have available, which is nowhere near what it could be.

It's also why I have owned 2 twins, I like to fly at night, and I like to land on runways.
 
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The funny thing is, if everybody paid their subscription services that they pay private industry for, that consists of data provided by tax payer funding, to the FAA, we could likely manage to fund a pretty damned nice system.
 
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KRyan said:
Don’t know if this is relevant or not, but here’s my 2 cents.

Had a co-worker who was a former air traffic controller. He was one of the guys that got fired back during the Reagan era when they had the NATCA strike. Anyway, I was talking to him regarding an accident that had happened a day or two before. My recollection on this is a little unclear, but as I recall there was an Air Force or ANG fighter or fighter trainer who got into trouble somewhere around Indianapolis. As I recall, it was a major engine failure. He got ATC on the radio, but it was fairly obvious early on he wasn’t going to make an airport. The pilot eventually ejected and the plane ended up hitting an apartment building, killing and injuring people on the ground.

I asked him about what ATC said to the pilot. I wondered why that hadn’t just sent him “out of town.” You don’t have to get too far out of Indy and you’re are back in farm country. If the pilot was going to eject, wouldn’t it be better to send him out to “the sticks” rather than have him punch out over town?

His answer to me was that as the controller, if he were to do something like that, he was setting himself up for a lawsuit. He told me something like “OK, so say you tell the pilot to turn south, because that will get him out of the populated area and heading for farm country. The pilot punches out, and the plane comes down on the Jones Farm, killing Farmer Jones and his family. You gave him a direction, so you are going to be liable.”

I said to him, what would you say to the pilot if he said, “look, just point me out of town, I don’t want to come down in the city?” He said. “I’d wouldn’t say a thing.”
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What he said is correct.
But it was PATCO during the Regan era. NATCA came in many years later after PATCO was decertified.
 
KRyan said:
Don’t know if this is relevant or not, but here’s my 2 cents.

Had a co-worker who was a former air traffic controller. He was one of the guys that got fired back during the Reagan era when they had the NATCA strike. Anyway, I was talking to him regarding an accident that had happened a day or two before. My recollection on this is a little unclear, but as I recall there was an Air Force or ANG fighter or fighter trainer who got into trouble somewhere around Indianapolis. As I recall, it was a major engine failure. He got ATC on the radio, but it was fairly obvious early on he wasn’t going to make an airport. The pilot eventually ejected and the plane ended up hitting an apartment building, killing and injuring people on the ground.

I asked him about what ATC said to the pilot. I wondered why that hadn’t just sent him “out of town.” You don’t have to get too far out of Indy and you’re are back in farm country. If the pilot was going to eject, wouldn’t it be better to send him out to “the sticks” rather than have him punch out over town?

His answer to me was that as the controller, if he were to do something like that, he was setting himself up for a lawsuit. He told me something like “OK, so say you tell the pilot to turn south, because that will get him out of the populated area and heading for farm country. The pilot punches out, and the plane comes down on the Jones Farm, killing Farmer Jones and his family. You gave him a direction, so you are going to be liable.”

I said to him, what would you say to the pilot if he said, “look, just point me out of town, I don’t want to come down in the city?” He said. “I’d wouldn’t say a thing.”
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I think you are talking about a T-38 crash into an apartment complex in Wichta Falls. The situation is much the same taking off south, it's not a long way (to the North is just pastures, pecan orchards, and the Red River) however it was still too far.

ATC can't make a plane do anything.
 
KRyan said:
Don’t know if this is relevant or not, but here’s my 2 cents.

Had a co-worker who was a former air traffic controller. He was one of the guys that got fired back during the Reagan era when they had the NATCA strike. Anyway, I was talking to him regarding an accident that had happened a day or two before. My recollection on this is a little unclear, but as I recall there was an Air Force or ANG fighter or fighter trainer who got into trouble somewhere around Indianapolis. As I recall, it was a major engine failure. He got ATC on the radio, but it was fairly obvious early on he wasn’t going to make an airport. The pilot eventually ejected and the plane ended up hitting an apartment building, killing and injuring people on the ground.

I asked him about what ATC said to the pilot. I wondered why that hadn’t just sent him “out of town.” You don’t have to get too far out of Indy and you’re are back in farm country. If the pilot was going to eject, wouldn’t it be better to send him out to “the sticks” rather than have him punch out over town?

His answer to me was that as the controller, if he were to do something like that, he was setting himself up for a lawsuit. He told me something like “OK, so say you tell the pilot to turn south, because that will get him out of the populated area and heading for farm country. The pilot punches out, and the plane comes down on the Jones Farm, killing Farmer Jones and his family. You gave him a direction, so you are going to be liable.”

I said to him, what would you say to the pilot if he said, “look, just point me out of town, I don’t want to come down in the city?” He said. “I’d wouldn’t say a thing.”
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It's not up to ATC to decide where a pilot goes in these situations. If I'm asked to provide vectors to the nearest airport I provide vectors to the nearest airport. If I'm asked to provide vectors away from the city I provide vectors away from the city.

It was PATCO that walked out on strike, NATCA was formed about seven years later.
 
The crash I was talking about was in 1987. It was a Corsair 2 that hit a hotel. As soon as I saw the responses that said it was PATCO I smacked my forehead. You are correct, it was PATCO.
 
Henning said:
Because ATC doesn't have that level of information, simple as that. We are moving in that direction with ADS-B, and with terrain mapping and SVT, if we can integrate that with Google Earth, we can have virtual Day VFR severe clear conditions right in the cockpit in night 0/0 conditions.

But we don't have that yet. That requires a level of resources we are not willing to commit because they will not show a direct profit. This is a service that is being provided by an agency that is begrudged every dollar it spends, and pilots refuse to add one more dime to. You would be amazed at the resistance you would find in the pilot community to such a system regardless the safety benefits provided, because they would rather not spend that money.

This is the reality of being PIC, you are responsible, no one else. You made the decision to fly at night, it's up to you to find the place to land regardless where that may be. Anybody else is just assisting you with what resources they have available, which is nowhere near what it could be.

It's also why I have owned 2 twins, I like to fly at night, and I like to land on runways.
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As someone who has worked on FAA/NASA research projects in the past, it's not about money in that sense. Neither FAA nor NASA is a for-profit corporation. They are government agencies whose missions do not include making money for the government (that's the IRS). It's much more about risk.

Google has yet to demonstrate any production software that isn't a toy, including Android. Would you want to take the responsibility of depending on an underverified, buggy, and continually changing application to try to save someone's life? You might get an answer, but it would be wrong. It is not appropriate for a mission critical application.

We've played games with integrating Google Earth into our flight planning and simulation exercises. It makes pretty pictures. It is not as accurate as it looks, and qualifies only as eye candy.

When you try to integrate with continually changing features, maybe you'll understand. That's a recipe for making a system that breaks every time the wind blows or Eric Schmidt farts.
 
I've played around with Foreflight's SVT a bit both in the air and on the ground, i.e. while driving through flat and mountain roads.

It's accurate enough for navigation and terrain avoidance, but it's not even close for forced landing purposes except possibly at an airport where it depicts a runway. A perpendicular freeway overpass and a line of high rises both look exactly like featureless flat land.
 
There is a video about a commercial jet in Canada that almost crashed and was told some topographic info when having engine trouble. I wish I could remember what video it was. It is a pretty amazing story. If I can find it, I will update here.
 
JasonM said:
There is a video about a commercial jet in Canada that almost crashed and was told some topographic info when having engine trouble. I wish I could remember what video it was. It is a pretty amazing story. If I can find it, I will update here.
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I'm told about flying into rising terrain all the time regardless of an emergency. I just tell them, "Thank you roger, aware and visual through the passes."
 
JasonM said:
There is a video about a commercial jet in Canada that almost crashed and was told some topographic info when having engine trouble. I wish I could remember what video it was. It is a pretty amazing story. If I can find it, I will update here.
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Perhaps you're thinking of the Gimli Glider. The engine trouble was caused by the absence of fuel.
 
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JasonM said:
There is a video about a commercial jet in Canada that almost crashed and was told some topographic info when having engine trouble. I wish I could remember what video it was. It is a pretty amazing story. If I can find it, I will update here.
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You may be talking about the MU-2 Icing incident. Pretty scary ATC audio on youtube..

From what I remember they encountered severe icing at night and it choked out both of their engines. There was terrain and ATC was giving them vectors. I think he had them flying down a valley to a big lake. They got the engines restarted only a couple hundred feet off of the ground.

Cant remember but it was definitely somewhere in canada. Seskatchamatoon or some funny named place that could only be in canada :)
 
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Heading for a dark area? I'm thinking, dark means TREES! There are other options more appealing... Lighted road or headlights on an interstate make more sense to me... IMHO....
 
FlySince9 said:
Heading for a dark area? I'm thinking, dark means TREES! There are other options more appealing... Lighted road or headlights on an interstate make more sense to me... IMHO....
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You may want to consider that some further. Tree tops are relatively soft and absorb energy rather gradually compared to something like a bridge abutment or truck.

You have to assess each situation independently at the time it is occurring. I do not discount the highway, but I do not discount the dark either. The highway even though lit and paved does not always provide the safest option. Sometimes you're better to shoot for the unknown, and glide down with the stall horn chirping until the landing light shows you something, then you bring it to a solid note.
I salvaged several wrecks out of tree for insurance companies, all of them the occupants got out, so the odds of going in trees are not maybe as bad as you think they might be. The key to survival is to be at minimum energy when you make the surface transition, and try to make the des celebration take as long as possible.
 
Henning said:
You may want to consider that some further.
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Worh considering... I do know that, statistically, most successful forced landings occur on roads, not fields (or trees). Though I do understand and believe that with all other options lost, a soft tree-landing is a good option. Even when the sun is shining.
 
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