ATC Directed Runway Incursion. IAD Disaster Averted.

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Sluggo63, Sep 26, 2018.

  1. Sluggo63

    Sluggo63 Cleared for Takeoff

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  2. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    :eek: yikes!
     
  3. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    You think they'd have gotten this straight by now. It used to be before they created the west runway (now 1L/19R), that it was IMPOSSIBLE to "cross" a runway at IAD. Pretty much ruined what was a decent airport design. Right up there with the idiotic FAA directives to rename the taxiways at Dulles and other airports. While it is on paper now "consistant", it's operationally way worse than how the airports were before.
     
  4. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Airport layout wasn’t the problem Ron. The controller forgot he cleared UAL 326 for takeoff, and then proceeded to taxi aircraft across 19C, causing UAL 326 to abort. Heads up for 326!
     
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  5. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

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    Just goes to show, never blindly follow ATC directions. Trust, but verify. They are human too and can make mistakes. Controllers have caused runway incursions, have vectored airplanes into cumulogranite, and and have assisted aircraft with running out of fuel. You are the pilot in command, and are ultimately responsible.

    And this is not a bash of controllers, we are all human and mistakes happen to the best of us.
     
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  6. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Yikes. Good lesson on always keeping an eye out and listening to what the others are being told.
     
  7. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I was a controller and have seen screw ups. It happens. Of course never did. :)
     
  8. jkaduk

    jkaduk Cleared for Takeoff

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    Look left and right before you cross.
     
  9. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    “Twr, possible controller deviation, I have a number for you to call - let me know when ready to copy.”
     
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  10. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    I'd be real surprised if that controller didn't lose his ratings on that one.
     
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  11. pburger

    pburger Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Holy phook! That's scary.
    I forget what airport, but a few years ago I was cleared for takeoff, and as I taxied onto the runway I saw a plane on the runway ahead of me, way down there, maybe 1500 or 2000 feet down. I stopped in position and ask the tower what that plane on the runway was doing. He snapped back with something like "I had proper separation... cleared for takeoff". I simply said, "I'm not rolling until that plane is clear". I think it was landing traffic that hadn't exited the runway yet. The controller was extremely defensive. Once that plane was clear, I began my roll and never said any more about it, but I don't think he should have cleared me with that plane on the ground in front of me.

    I try to listen and develop a big-picture view of what is going on, but you just can't always do that. You might be doing a run-up, or other tasks while waiting your turn. You really do rely on the controllers to get this stuff right. Listening to that video, you can hear the controller instructing multiple planes to cross the runway shortly after he had cleared the other plane for takeoff. None of those pilots questioned those instructions - I'm not saying they should have - I'm pointing out that those pilots are RELYING on the CONTROLLERS in those situations. An old phrase comes to mind, "Doveryai, no proveryai".
     
  12. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    That’s called anticipating separation. It’s in the controller handbook, or used to be. IOW by the time you roll the other aircraft should be clear of the runway. Still correct @Timbeck2?

    Of course you have the right to wait too. ATC can’t make you take off after all. :)
     
  13. MooneyDriver78

    MooneyDriver78 En-Route

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    I bet he doesn’t, unless you think he did it on purpose. Most likely he’ll be on probation and require a supervisor at all times to monitor him for some period of time.
     
  14. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    Not if the controller said, "I had the required separation." I don't know where he got his training but no controller I know or have ever met would clear someone for takeoff with someone still on the runway. Now turning to exit the runway is a different story.
     
  15. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    A supervisor monitors everyone on a daily basis, that's what a supervisor is for. I bet the supervisor lost his ratings as well.
     
  16. DaleB

    DaleB Final Approach

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    You know, I always wait for the entire runway to be clear before I start my roll. I'm usually off and climbing like mad in a few hundred feet. But it would be just my luck that the ONE DAY someone broke down, got a flat, ground looped, killed the engine or just had a brain fart and stopped or started to back taxi on the runway... THAT would be the day I had to abort the takeoff and needed that next couple thousand feet, including the part with an airplane sitting on it. The extra 15 seconds waiting for that Bonanza to waddle out of the way isn't really a big deal.

    And I fly a little bitty bug-smasher with good brakes. No way in hell I'd do any different with something resembling a "real" airplane.
     
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  17. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    That’s what I meant, turning off and then clearing the aircraft. I might have it mixed up with clearing someone for takeoff as the previous aircraft begins their takeoff roll though too. Been a few years. :)
     
  18. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    In that case 6,000' and airborne. I think what you're referring to is landing. 3000' for small/small, 4500' for large/small, etc.
     
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  19. Hawker800

    Hawker800 Cleared for Takeoff

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    I could never do that job.
     
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  20. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    <----- flexes
     
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  21. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Prior to the construction of the west runway, it wouldn't have been possible to make this error. There was no "crossing" runways at IAD before. All the runways were outside of the taxiway system.
     
  22. arnoha

    arnoha Cleared for Takeoff

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    @Timbeck2 Is there a standard procedure for a controller to remember something like this? Listening to it, I'll bet it was the distraction of the call from the Waterski flight that lost him the pic. Pure speculation, but I'll bet he then jumped ahead mentally to what he had planned next, which was the taxi instructions. What mental or physical check did he miss in there? What are you guys taught to do?

    He was remarkable calm on the radio for someone who probably knew he'd just lost his livelihood but dodged being infamous.
     
  23. MooneyDriver78

    MooneyDriver78 En-Route

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    What happen to the new friendly, less punitive FAA?
     
  24. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Controller isn’t gonna lose their job over one OE / OD:

    (1) Decertification shall not be based solely on the number of or involvement in an OE, but rather on the employees’ overall performance history.

    ATSAP it! ;)
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2018
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  25. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I didn't get the feel that anyone's job was at risk.
    Heck even if planes crash, I bet there are a lot of protections (union?) built in to re-train them vs dump them.
    I think they have a lot invested in each controller and unless it is painfully obvious they are not working out (repeated errors or bad attitude about them), they are going to try to salvage them.
    Imagine if each pilot who made an error was permanently revoked.
     
  26. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    I didn't say "job," I said ratings. He could have lost his local (tower) rating which means that he can't work without retraining on the specific function of that position in which he was deficient. He also can't work without someone else plugged in behind him (a monitor, not a supervisor) until he has been deemed knowledgeable enough to work alone again. But then again, I don't work for the FAA or at that particular tower, so I don't know what will happen to him. I know what would have happened had it happened where I work.
     
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  27. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    Again, I don't know how they do things at Dulles but procedure for my particular airport is that anytime we have someone cross the runway be it a vehicle or another aircraft, we electronically block the wind sensor with a red screen so that the wind isn't visible. This means that when we clear someone for take off, the wind can't be seen therefore jogging the memory that someone is on the runway. In this case, it was backwards - the guy cleared someone for takeoff and then put someone across the runway.
     
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