Assault: 6 years in prison. Victim dies 9 years later: New charge of murder.

But, there has to be the legal minimum. I wouldn't mind if it did drop down to .06 BAC on the national level. Though, I think all that will happen is increase convictions... IF caught. Far too many now escape by barely making it home without incident and a subsequent traffic stop.

I agree that there must be a legal limit, but different folks are affected differently by small amounts of alcohol in their blood so harsh penalties tied to low limits seems a bit unfair.

As far as drinking on an empty stomach, one should be aware of what they are capable of or in this case, incapable of handling. It is said "ignorance is no excuse" in defense of violating the law. Is it excusable to say you were not aware how alcohol would affect you? It surely doesn't take a genius know alcohol will have some effect, even if you're uncertain as to how much at a given level of usage.

But it takes more than genius to determine if you are just above or just below the limit, yet from the legal perspective it's black and white. Perhaps a requirement for bars and parties where alcohol is served with more than 10 guests to have an accurate breathalizer available.
 
see, the problem is that the first part of your brain to get messed up is the part you would use to judge your capabilities! That's the point - you can't figure out whether you are right in your estimation that you are just fine to drive... and you likely are NOT.
 
see, the problem is that the first part of your brain to get messed up is the part you would use to judge your capabilities! That's the point - you can't figure out whether you are right in your estimation that you are just fine to drive... and you likely are NOT.
But, the first drink IS a conscious decision. Only a jury of morons would buy otherwise. When it's decided to take a second or third drink it should also be decided a cab ride is in order. To do otherwise is a precursor to a life-changing event for more than just the person taking the drink.

Tom, I'm sure we agree on these issues. I'm sure you saw more than your fair share of harm caused by drunk drivers during your time as an LEO.
 
see, the problem is that the first part of your brain to get messed up is the part you would use to judge your capabilities! That's the point - you can't figure out whether you are right in your estimation that you are just fine to drive... and you likely are NOT.
Sounds like a discussion on O2 above 10,000 feet.
 
Sounds like a discussion on O2 above 10,000 feet.
Remarkably similar, as a matter of fact! ;)

Ken, I was addressing the general idea of "knowing when you've had too much" - because, yeah, when you're on yer hands and knees throwing up, maybe you have a clue - but even then, maybe not! And though a person is impaired well before that, they might not have the capacity to understand the scope of that impairment.
 
I don't think the US Supreme Court does, either. IIRC, you can't be prosecuted in Federal court after being tried for the same charge in state court. That's one reason Congress passed the Civil Rights Act of 1964 -- it permitted the Federal government to prosecute on charges of violating someone's civil rights for the same act the perpetrators were acquitted in state court on charges of assault or murder. Most recent example of that is the Rodney King case -- the police were acquitted of assault in state court but convicted of civil rights violations in Federal court. And having grown up in the 50's and 60's during things like the Goodman/Schwerner/Chaney murders, I'm not conviced that's a bad thing.

Ron, I think you may be correct. I know for a fact that there are certain things to which DJ does not protect a later Federal prosecution. Whether that is limited only to certain categories of crimes is something I'm not entirely sure of - frankly, it's a situation I've only seen discussed theoretically in case law, but have not seen firsthand. So I could have been wrong in my previous post.
 
I think such issues need to be addressed by the defendant and defense counsel. If the assault was such it could result in death then it should be considered during a plea bargain. But, ONLY during a plea bargain.

If the state is forced to go to trial and the defendant never takes responsibility, any further developments should be fair game if it results in one or more criminal complaints. But even if not addressed during plea bargaining, a plea deal is made in good faith on both parts that should be the end of any action against the defendant.

Once a plea agreement has been made, it has until the moment it is accepted by the court. It doesn't always work that way but that should be the moment the prosecution is bound by the agreement. Only a mitigating circumstance coming to light can allow for a change to reduce or dismiss the charge. Once accepted by the court, the level or number of counts cannot be increased.

I refer to the date of acceptance by the court as that would be the binding date for the plea. If left until sentencing, then too much flexibility remains due to the court's schedule. This would be akin to the offense date being the basis of what laws were in effect at the time of offense. Were it left to the date of conviction, it's a certainty some (not all) prosecutors would delay matters knowing a stronger sentence option will later be in effect.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying one should get away with murder, literally. But, when a plea bargain is made it should be adhered to. I really fault the prosecutors for not requiring a longer sentence to start with. They created this problem and now want to fix it by violating a properly negotiated deal with poor terms some six years later. They threw a small number at the defendant and he jumped at it. I'd expect him to.

The prosecutor got a conviction notch on their belt. Given such a short sentence for injuries obviously bad enough to ultimately result in death, that notch is apparently all they cared about, justice be damned.

It seems to me this could have been a charge of attempted felony murder. He was illegally firing a weapon with reckless disregard. A near-fatal injury occurs. I don't know the laws in North Carolina but had they gone after him with more appropriate charges, he'd still be in prison serving four to six times what he did receive.

In looking at the article on drunk driving resulting in death... the drinking is begun by a conscious act to take the first drink. That in no way should relieve one of responsibility of their actions beyond that point. Eight years for actions that led to the loss of two lives and injury to several others? Sorry, that's a crock.

About 1995 or 1996, a Gwinnett County cop had just written up a DUI driver and the driver was hauled away by another unit while the arresting officer waited with the arrestee's vehicle to be towed. While sitting there, along comes another drunk driver and hits the police car. The officer was killed.

Did the legislature act with stronger penalties? Hardly! A third DUI is only an aggravated felony resulting in a mandatory 120 days incarceration, $1000-5000 in fines and revocation of license for five years with possible reinstatement after two years. No work permit for driving is allowed for the first two years.

I'm of the opinion, a second and subsequent DUI should be a felony with a mandatory six-month jail sentence to be increased two-fold for each subsequent offense. The offender will suffer mandatory license revocation for a minimum of five years (also increased two-fold for subseqent offenses) with no chance of a work permit.

Should there be some chance of a fifth offense, beg for mercy. If one has made it to that many offenses, they are not safe to be around. I can't fathom that occurence but it DOES happen.

If death and/or injury occur as a result of DUI, those charges should be aggravated and a mandatory minimum should be in place for even a plea bargain; something more on par with twelve years per count. In that woman's case, it would be 24 years for the deaths alone.

Is that too harsh after taking a life because you wanted to have a drink?

Oh, I'd be in favor of a federal law that mandates states verify the existence of a pilot certificate after a DUI conviction. If one exist, documents showing conviction should automatically be forwarded to AMC-700. I would be just as in favor of that same statute mandating revocation of a pilot certificate to be a minimum of any revocation period of a driver's license... if not for life.

I understand where you're coming from. But imagine the following situation.

Under your scenario, the state could offer a plea bargain to the guy who put the victim in a coma. And, under your scenario, the state would be prevented from bringing a murder charge in light of the existing plea deal.

So, suppose it is certain that the victim is going to die from the wounds inflicted - he's a vegetable, and there's no doubt that without the brain fuctioning, the body will also die. It's a question of when.

Under your proposal, the state would be required to wait 5 years until the victim actually dies before prosecuting the case. As I'm sure you're aware, there is a time limitation on how long a defendant can be held without charges - and if he is charged immediately, but the charges are later amended to include murder, the defendant is entitled to a speedy trial (generally within 6 months of pleading not guilty).

So, if the state does not immediately file charges, we've got a dangerous guy running around, who might even flee the country (after all, no restrictions without charges). And if he is charged immediately, that may very well lead to the plea bargain that would foreclose the later murder charge under your proposal - leading in a full circle to the state not charging immediately.

On top of all that, a plea bargain is a bargain on the crimes commited at the time. In the above scenario, there has been murder crime committed until 5 years later. So there's not really an issue of "breaking a contract" or sticking with the deal - the murder is simply not in the cards at the time.
 
Remarkably similar, as a matter of fact! ;)

Ken, I was addressing the general idea of "knowing when you've had too much" - because, yeah, when you're on yer hands and knees throwing up, maybe you have a clue - but even then, maybe not! And though a person is impaired well before that, they might not have the capacity to understand the scope of that impairment.

That's one of the reasons I don't really like the way the DUI laws are written. You've got this line with BAC that a vast majority of individuals won't know whether or not they've crossed it, and those who can test for it (say with a handheld breathalyzer they purchased) will end up relying on data that could have a significant margin of error. Of course, I doubt states will go to a no driving after any consumption rule, not to mention what that'd do to bars in general. It's an odd case.
 
I understand where you're coming from. But imagine the following situation.

Under your scenario, the state could offer a plea bargain to the guy who put the victim in a coma. And, under your scenario, the state would be prevented from bringing a murder charge in light of the existing plea deal.

So, suppose it is certain that the victim is going to die from the wounds inflicted - he's a vegetable, and there's no doubt that without the brain fuctioning, the body will also die. It's a question of when.

Under your proposal, the state would be required to wait 5 years until the victim actually dies before prosecuting the case. As I'm sure you're aware, there is a time limitation on how long a defendant can be held without charges - and if he is charged immediately, but the charges are later amended to include murder, the defendant is entitled to a speedy trial (generally within 6 months of pleading not guilty).

So, if the state does not immediately file charges, we've got a dangerous guy running around, who might even flee the country (after all, no restrictions without charges). And if he is charged immediately, that may very well lead to the plea bargain that would foreclose the later murder charge under your proposal - leading in a full circle to the state not charging immediately.

On top of all that, a plea bargain is a bargain on the crimes commited at the time. In the above scenario, there has been murder crime committed until 5 years later. So there's not really an issue of "breaking a contract" or sticking with the deal - the murder is simply not in the cards at the time.
I understand what you're saying but then where do you draw the line? Should the prosecution really have the ability to pursue charges twenty years later? I know it may not seem fair but there has to be some limitation on how long one is subject. I can only see a reasonable circumstance where the state does pursue a case and it is dismissed in mistrial or without prejudice and express leave to re-present the matter to the court.

Let's say one does cause injury and it is a very personal wake-up call to the defendant, realizing they have a problem and show a sincere effort in seeking help. They also take what's coming and the prosecution offers a deal for the defendant to fulfill in its entirety. The defendant has completed all obligations and even gone above and beyond in turning their life around and not touched a drop of alcohol. Now, twenty years later the victim dies and the claim is their death is related to the DUI a couple decades earlier. Is it really a just system where the defendant remains on the hook when they have already accepted responsibility and completed all obligations?

I honestly don't believe so.

Now, I had addressed the issue of the prosecution must adhere to the deal made. That does not preclude the prosecution from making a part of that deal a clause to pursue charges down the road should death occur down the road, related to that event. Such leave to pursue may encourage the defendant to agree to a longer sentence in the beginning.

I don't know about all states but in Georgia, you can have charges pending and not be indicted or be presented in a preliminary hearing for up to five years. I don't know if that would allow for dealing with the DUI and perhaps that additional five years to consider further charges. But, five years is more than enough time to consider.

I'm sorry. I just have a problem with a system where one can spend the rest of their life being subject to a charge that may or may never come.
 
Should the prosecution really have the ability to pursue charges twenty years later?
AFAIK, the only crime for which there is no statute of limitations is murder, and when you think about it, that seems appropriate, because when someone is killed, they're dead forever.
 
AFAIK, the only crime for which there is no statute of limitations is murder, and when you think about it, that seems appropriate, because when someone is killed, they're dead forever.
Actually, I agree with this. However, a death from a DUI isn't considered murder, first or second degree. Manslaughter or vehicular manslaughter would apply.

I did address the issue of prosecution not negotiating the appropriate terms to start with. They blew their chance. Now, they want a second bite when they had a chance and blew it.
 
AFAIK, the only crime for which there is no statute of limitations is murder, and when you think about it, that seems appropriate, because when someone is killed, they're dead forever.

There are a few others that have been extended to infinite SOL's (the use of that term has always cracked me up - if you miss the deadline, you're SOL), such as rape or kidnapping. That really varies from state to state, however.
 
Ron, that differs state by state. In North Carolina there is NO statute of limitations on ANY felony - you commit felony littering and run off to the desert, 40 years later when you next show your head, we've gotcha! :)
 
Ron, that differs state by state. In North Carolina there is NO statute of limitations on ANY felony - you commit felony littering and run off to the desert, 40 years later when you next show your head, we've gotcha! :)
I have a hard time imagining littering, no matter how egregious, being a felony. BTW, Kentucky also has no SOL on felonies, but the other 48 all do (other than homicide, etc).
 
fact is, I don't know if there's a felony littering or not (though I expect there might be - I mean, you dump 2 tons of old refrigerators on the side of the road, they're likely to take that seriously!) - but my point stands! ;)
 
fact is, I don't know if there's a felony littering or not (though I expect there might be - I mean, you dump 2 tons of old refrigerators on the side of the road, they're likely to take that seriously!) - but my point stands! ;)
Indeed, Mr. Spock!






:)
 
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