ASRS won't help most TFR busts

[poadeleted20]

Another pilot entered the office, and we started talking. He was looking for coffee, and stated he was Hungover and not going to fly today, but was going out for breakfast with some guys. He then proceeded to tell me why he was hungover,... after busting the Presidential TFR for New York yesterday and spending over 4 hrs with authorities,.. he had a rough night. Wow,... I couldn't imagine! Apparently he was making a flight to Morristown NJ, under the class B area of NYC, and didn't get a briefing prior to leaving, only checked DUATs, not filing a flight plan either. He listened to ATIS on the way up, but there was no indication of the TFR. Listened when 10 Miles out, and it was then added, but he had already busted airspace. Tower ended up giving him a number to call when he landed,... the beginning of a long evening. He filed a NASA report, and now we'll see what happens. Hopefully, no suspension, but it will be on his record.

Everyone knows how the NASA ASRS can save you from sanctions (like grounding) even if not keeping the violation off your record. However, it will not save you from sanctions if the FAA decides your violation was the result of a deliberate act. Thus, if you bust a TFR because you didn't know it was there, and you hadn't received a briefing from an approved briefing source (like FSS, DUATS, FltPlan.com, AOPA RTFP, etc) including the NOTAMS, the FAA will write you up not only for violating 91.141 for entering the TFR without authorization, but also for violating 91.103 by failing to "become familiar with all available information concerning that flight." Since you chose not to get the full briefing information, your violation is not inadvertant, and the NASA ASRS filing will not get you out of the grounding. The FAA has applied this test in numerous TFR busts in the past.

The only way you get out of this is if you did get a briefing from an approved source and the TFR information was not provided. I know of one case where the FSS briefer simply failed to mention the TFR, and the pilot went in. The tape of the briefing was reviewed, and confirmed the pilot's contention that he'd done all he could reasonably be expected to do to comply with 91.103 -- the violation was torn up.

Note in Rob's story that the pilot who busted the TFR in NYC last Friday got a DUATS briefing. The FAA will pull up the record of that briefing, and if the TFR is in the briefing he obtained, or he did not obtain a briefing that fully covered his intended route of flight, the NASA ASRS form will not save him from the sanctions. Further, whether he skates on the sanctions or not, he will have the violation on his FAA record for five years and have to check "yes" every time the question "have you ever..." is asked on insurance or employment forms for the rest of his life even though the FAA won't consider it in their proceedings after five years.

Y'all be careful out there, hear?

 

[Chairboy]

The only way I can imagine an ASRS could have made a difference is if he had filed it before being told to call the tower, so... unlikely to have been feasible anyhow. My understanding (and I may be wrong) is that the only time it can affect an enforcement action is if it's filed before you get informed that the Eye of Sauron saw your transgression.

Or is this an oversimplification?

 

[poadeleted20]

The only way I can imagine an ASRS could have made a difference is if he had filed it before being told to call the tower, so... unlikely to have been feasible anyhow. My understanding (and I may be wrong) is that the only time it can affect an enforcement action is if it's filed before you get informed that the Eye of Sauron saw your transgression.

The time of filing is entirely irrelevant as long as you file it within 10 days of the incident -- doesn't matter if you've been notified or not. If you file within that time, and the waiver of sanctions criteria are met (not intentional, no criminal act, no accident, no previous ASRS waiver of sanctions with few years), you get the waiver of sanctions, but as stated above, regardless of when you file, the violation still goes on your FAA record even if you don't get grounded or fined for it.

 

[Richard]

Further, whether he skates on the sanctions or not, he will have the violation on his FAA record for five years and have to check "yes" every time the question "have you ever..." is asked on insurance or employment forms for the rest of his life even though the FAA won't consider it in their proceedings after five years.

Please elaborate on this.

• How would the pilot be held in violation if the sanctions were dimissed?
• (WRT future employment or an insurance underwriter) While not having to answer in the affirmative is always most desirable, what negative consequence would there be since an explanation would show that the FAA dismissed the sanctions?

Y'all be careful out there, hear?

For me that includes a FSS briefing (1800HOLDFOREVER). Even then I have received information from ATC which conflicts with that from the FSS. So am I foolish to rely on a FSS full briefing to keep me out of the hot seat?

 

[Everskyward]

Please elaborate on this.

• How would the pilot be held in violation if the sanctions were dimissed?

I'm sure that there is a longer answer to this but it is my understanding that the violation is not dismissed, it is the penalties that are dismissed. For example, if ordinarily you would have received a 120 day suspension, that part is dismissed but you still have the violation on your record.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

Good post, Ron.

I've long made it a habit to call flight service just to get the briefing recorded on tape.

 

[poadeleted20]

iNverted has it right -- the sanctions are waived, but the violation is not dismissed. You go through the same entire enforcement process, but when they tell you what sanctions they're going to apply, you pull out your ASRS report receipt and give that to them instead of your license (more or less -- it's a bit more complicated than that). The violation stays on your records at OKC, and will be considered in any future enforcement or competence situations with the FAA. And, of course, since the violation is not "dismissed," there is no "explanation," just a "yes" and a report of what reg you were found to have violated. And technically, the sanction is only "waived," not "dismissed," so the FAA retains a record of what they would have done to you had you not filed the ASRS report.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

If there is never a tfr violation by the intended target (terrorists) of this law ....do you think they will drop tfrs?

Maybe after 25years and 5000 'innocent' busts?
50 years and 10000 busts?
Or is it truly hopeless?

 

[Chairboy]

They'll drop TFRs around when they rescind a tax. Since I think I may still be helping fund the Spanish-American war w/ my federal phone taxes, this probably won't be anytime soon.

 

[Ghery]

They'll drop TFRs around when they rescind a tax. Since I think I may still be helping fund the Spanish-American war w/ my federal phone taxes, this probably won't be anytime soon.

Actually, that tax has been rescinded. Probably the only one in history.

 

[Bassman]

.....and you hadn't received a briefing from an approved briefing source (like FSS, DUATS, FltPlan.com, AOPA RTFP, etc).....

FltPlan.com and AOPA RTFP are (FAA) approved sources?

 

[gprellwitz]

FltPlan.com and AOPA RTFP are (FAA) approved sources?

IIRC, they both access DUAT behind the scenes with your login and can provide you with the unexpurgated log. So yes, they could qualify.

FltPlan says:

FltPlan.com is a complete Flight Planning service for professional General Aviation pilots.
You can use the links below for fast access to up-to-date information, or become a registered user to create & file customized flight plans and receive FAA approved weather (and much more).

 

[Teller1900]

IIRC, they both access DUAT behind the scenes with your login and can provide you with the unexpurgated log. So yes, they could qualify.

FltPlan says:

Is that new? I think I had the same thought as Bassman. It's been a while since I've used fltplan, but I always had to get an actual briefing back when I did.

 

[gprellwitz]

Is that new? I think I had the same thought as Bassman. It's been a while since I've used fltplan, but I always had to get an actual briefing back when I did.

I really can't say. While I have a fltpln account, I don't use is much, because they're the only ones I know whose user interface is MORE confusing than a government web site!

 

[rottydaddy]

Sometimes (okay, most times) it seems to me that if they didn't make such a fuss about these VIP visits, the President or whoever would probably be safer.

If you think they make a fuss over airspace when such a bigwig is visiting NYC, you should see the pageantry of protection on the ground... it's mind-boggling. Even Secret Service is not terribly secret; they stick out like sore thumbs, which probably reduces their effectiveness by drawing attention to the whole thing.

Probably be better to have Himself put on a funny hat and an eyepatch, assume a limp, and go from the meeting to a yellow cab to his hotel or the airport. Properly incognito agents could hover nearby, or maybe one could escort him.

Anyone looking to hit the President with an aircraft or any other method is not going to give a damn about TFRs or anything else... and so far the only recorded (apparent) attempt to endanger a US president with a light aircraft was a dismal failure, even though the perpetrator "somehow" managed to breach the permanent prohibited area over the White House.

And Reagan and Ford were big fat juicy targets despite a very obvious security team surrounding them... thank goodness no light aircraft were flying overhead!

And I got a big laugh out of Cheney's "permanent TFR" over his vacation property- without that big target drawn on the charts, it's likely no potential enemey would have known he'd ever be there. Idiotic.

That being said, it's not very difficult to play along with this silly game and make sure you have all relevant info before flying into or under the Class B at a big city... especially when the media has been shouting about a VIP visit for weeks.
Every time one of us makes this mistake it somehow justifies the whole thing in the eyes of those who support it.

 

[poadeleted20]

Folks, whether you like them or not, whether they're justified or not, TFR's are here to stay for the foreseeable future. There are only two choices for you at this point -- learn to work around them or stop flying (voluntarily or involuntarily). I'll do my best to help folks learn how to work around them, but railing about the TFR's existence is simply a waste of effort -- there's 600,000 of us, and 299,400,000 of them.

 

[ScottM]

It would allow me to sleep better at night if we could call a few of them PFRs

 

[poadeleted20]

It would allow to sleep better at night if we could a few of the PFRs

I definitely think you need more sleep.

 

[EdFred]

Only a waste of effort because no one has the balls to stand up for what they believe in anymore.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I don't think it a lost cause to fight against something that is unjust, discriminatory, a disgraceful waste of taxpayer's money. I don't think we should give in so easily.
Other things (non-aviation) in our lives have been changed, once the right things were said, the pressure put in the right areas with the right people. (some of these things I was not particularily in favor of, but the point is, it can be done.)

 

[Pi1otguy]

It would allow me to sleep better at night if we could call a few of them PFRs

Like the Disney Land TFR in CA. Every other flight I hear SoCal explaining the TFR. Maybe these TFRs over one cycle (6 months) long should be plotted on our sectionals.

 

[KennyFlys]

Like the Disney Land TFR in CA. Every other flight I hear SoCal explaining the TFR. Maybe these TFRs over one cycle (6 months) long should be plotted on our sectionals.

The Disney TFR is strictly one created from political connections and an attempt to restrict what would otherwise be free speech.

I think many such TFRs are a joke the way they are handled. Why have National Security Areas? Just make them prohibited areas. Does it really matter whether it's a nuclear plant or a presidential home?

I suppose the FAA could always introduce Class F. Would that make you feel better?

 

[t0r0nad0]

FltPlan.com and AOPA RTFP are (FAA) approved sources?

During the tour last night, Daniel Baker (the founder of FlightAware) said that FlightAware is also an FAA-approved source for Part 91 flights. They also expect approval for Part 121 and Part 135 operators in the next couple of weeks. You should verify that independently before using it, though.

 

[poadeleted20]

During the tour last night, Daniel Baker (the founder of FlightAware) said that FlightAware is also an FAA-approved source for Part 91 flights.

Just looked at FlightAware's site, and I don't see any means of getting NOTAMs there. Also, the only weather info I see is a few charts and the TAFs/METARs for individual airports, with no AIRMET/SIGMET, Winds Aloft, PIREPs, or Area Forecasts. Perhaps I'm missing something, but without that other information, you do not have a 91.103-compliant preflight briefing.