Asking for input - thinking of a flight

[onwards]

This is sort of banal for all of you with many many hours, but it's very new to me, and in the great tradition CRM, I am hoping to gain some valuable feedback from the community.

I need to be in Vegas in a couple weeks for a conference. I have my commercial flight booked, but being in Concord, CA, and checking the straight line distance to Las Vegas, I find it's 400 miles.

Well... 400 miles is well within range for a 172. Seems like a 3 hour flight or so each way, and at a conservative 10 GPH, I still have plenty of reserve left (2 hours) before I get there. So I am sorely tempted to cancel my Southwest flight and fly myself to Vegas instead. Actually, I have a friend who wants to join if we do it this way, at which point it will also be significantly cheaper than commercial for each of us if we share costs (which is nuts). Considering the hassle and time for security at the airport, it will take maybe a wee-bit longer, but not by much.

Am I insane? I've never done this long of a trip before; my longest thus far has been about 120 miles out. I haven't really started the planning process yet (this idea literally just hit me), but wondered what you guys might think. Crossing the mountains would seem the obvious challenge, but seems like I can do an almost straight east towards and over Mammoth and never hit anything higher than 11K ft... the 172 should be able to go above that (13.5K to there, 12.5K back maybe?).

 

[pericynthion]

Absolutely go for it. This is what GA is for. It is well within your capabilities as a new private pilot and should be a good learning experience as well as a really cool trip. I've done it myself several times.

Get yourself a pulse oximeter just to be sure you don't have an unusually low tolerance.

Stay at least 1500-2000ft above terrain if it's windy to avoid the big updrafts and downdrafts. You don't need to be at the odd-plus-5 or even-plus-5 if you're within 3000ft of the surface.

Mammoth is a decent choice of route. It's ok to weave left and right to avoid the taller mountains - you don't need to always be above the max elevation figure from the sectional - but I would avoid actually flying down narrow valleys without some mountain flying training. Flying over the mountains is not nearly as big a deal as flying down among 'em.

FSS will tell you that moderate turbulence is forecast just about all the time. Most of the time you won't actually encounter it.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Well, it is 400 miles and over high and inhospitable terrain - a straight line distance of 400 miles means a total distance of 450 - 500 miles as you need to dodge both terrain and restricted areas. Doable, but Summer density altitudes push a 172's performance over the passes in during the day so you will need to plan an early morning departure and return in the morning. Summer Sierra thunderstorms are problematic.

The last thing you want to do is draw a straight line and cross the desolation wilderness as opposed to flying the passes and keeping your route over relatively flat terrain. On paper that works great but once you get out there, those sheer granite pinnacles start getting real close.

I've flown it before (Sacramento to VGT) in my Turbo Arrow, and I wouldn't call the flight enjoyable. Given that Southwest will get you there faster and cheaper, and that you can kick back and chill out, I'd keep the commercial tickets and save your energy for a destination Southwest DOESN'T fly to.

 

[onwards]

Absolutely go for it. This is what GA is for. It is well within your capabilities as a new private pilot and should be a good learning experience as well as a really cool trip. I've done it myself several times.

Get yourself a pulse oximeter just to be sure you don't have an unusually low tolerance.

Stay at least 1500-2000ft above terrain if it's windy to avoid the big updrafts and downdrafts. You don't need to be at the odd-plus-5 or even-plus-5 if you're within 3000ft of the surface.

It's ok to weave left and right to avoid the taller mountains - you don't need to always be above the max elevation figure from the sectional - but I would avoid actually flying down valleys without some mountain flying training. Flying over the mountains is not nearly as big a deal as flying down among 'em.

FSS will tell you that moderate turbulence is forecast just about all the time. Most of the time you won't actually encounter it.

Wow, thank you.

I'll order one of those on eBay today. Should I also worry about carrying oxygen? it sounds like I should be able to spend most of the flight under dangerous levels.

I definitely won't be messing around when I go over the mountains... if I can stay at 12,000 feet the whole way crossing I'll be very happy, even if that means 4000 feet above whatever is underneath me.

What else? should I actually go to KLAS? I think there are a few small airports around there (like the one in Concord, in fact) - any suggestions or recommendations, assuming I'm staying on the strip? I would rather not fly into McCarran if I can avoid it.

Anyone else? truly, all feedback is welcome.

 

[zaitcev]

Anyone else? truly, all feedback is welcome.

I don't have personal experience on that route, but an acquaintance of mine from the time I lived in Bay Area posted a write-up that may be useful:
http://marc.merlins.org/perso/flying/post_2010-11-25_Flight-To-Grand-Canyon-Through-Las-Vegas.html

I would do the trip in Cherokee, definitely. I live in New Mexico, I fly over and between these hillcocks all the time. The problem, however, is the weather. I am not instrument rated and I hate going on top over hostile terrain. If that happens, I cancel. If winds go above 30 and across ridges on the route, I cancel too, if I have to go through a pass (because the wind will be higher than forecast inside the pass). This is no way to fly on business.

 

[Fearless Tower]

should I actually go to KLAS?

In a 172.....I'd avoid LAS unless you are super comfortable talking to ATC and comfortable flying approaches in the 172 at full throttle. Not sure about landing fees, but fuel prices will likely be much higher at LAS than at the smaller nearby airports.

 

[pericynthion]

You shouldn't need to carry oxygen if you go most of the way at ~10k and climb up to 12k for the high bits. The oximeter is mostly for reassurance, but also to give you a warning in the unlikely event that you do get hypoxic - then you can turn around and descend before the symptoms become dangerous.

Please do consider other opinions, I'm sure you'll get some "go"s and some "no go"s. You might want to hold on to your airline ticket until close to the time, when you'll have a better idea of the weather.

I would land at one of the satellite airports, they'll be cheaper than McCarran both for parking and fuel. Either HND or VGT should be fine. You'll pay a parking fee of around $10/night. Cab or rental car, possibly shuttle bus? Parking at BVU will be cheaper or free but it's further out.

 

[gprellwitz]

Something approximating V244 east to OAL and then down V105 to BTY, and then to Las Vegas. Definitely NOT McCarren. There was a thread here within the past year on good Las Vegas airports.

You'll pass over Lee Vining, O24, and will have Mt. Dana to deal with. Tioga Pas is charted as 9,943'. Someone with local knowledge may be able to say whether that's a reasonable route. You would be unable to do it direct, as the MEA on V244 is 15,000, but, as pericynthion said, you'll not be flying a straight line, but weaving amongst the peaks. Don't try it if it's windy!

I'd keep the Southwest tickets and just cancel them when you're ready to take off. That way if things look bad you still have an alternative. I'll frequently buy REFUNDABLE tickets for that very reason. IIRC, though, SW allows you to apply much (all?) of the value of unused tickets to another flight.

 

[Sac Arrow]

I most def wouldn't try to go direct over V244. Personally, I'd go V230 over Mammoth Pass - it's a dogleg yes, but it's right around 9,000 feet at the pass and if something goes South, you have a lot more opportunity to glide downslope for a distance on either side. I've flown that pass boo coo times. You can cross it comfortably at 10,000 feet. Personally, coming from Sacramento I cross at Echo Summit, at the South end of Lake Tahoe to go to Vegas.

Remember that in the Summer on a hot day, a cruising altitude of 13,500 feet can be a density altitude of well over 15K even in the middle of the morning - well above what a 172 can do, so you really do have to pay careful attention to DA's along your route.

 

[EdFred]

Or do what I did. Cross over Lake Tahoe, and cruise on down the border. Stop at Death Valley on the way (yup, I did it in July) to say you landed below sea level, and then cruise into North Las Vegas or Henderson

 

[pericynthion]

Remember that in the Summer on a hot day, a cruising altitude of 13,500 feet can be a density altitude of well over 15K even in the middle of the morning - well above what a 172 can do, so you really do have to pay careful attention to DA's along your route.

Agree that DA is important, but a 160hp 172 should be able to do 15k DA without much trouble with two people. It will take a while to get up there, though - expect around 150 fpm by the top. Once above 8k, lean for best power, you can't damage the engine if you're that high.

Interesting/useful fact: hypoxia is dependent entirely on pressure altitude, not density altitude, because the air in the lungs is always at body temperature. So don't worry about DA from a hypoxia point of view, but on days with very low altimeter settings your body might be 1000ft higher than you expect.

Drinking plenty of water will help you stay comfy in the thin, dry air. Bring an empty bottle for the consequences!

 

[saracelica]

Just don't get caught up with "Get there-itis" Seems like having to be at the conference is priority one. Once I get my license I hope to be able to fly home to visit family but wouldn't consider it for a business trip. Too much pressure.

 

[pericynthion]

Just don't get caught up with "Get there-itis" Seems like having to be at the conference is priority one. Once I get my license I hope to be able to fly home to visit family but wouldn't consider it for a business trip. Too much pressure.

This is why keeping the Southwest tickets until the last minute is a very good idea.

 

[gprellwitz]

Just don't get caught up with "Get there-itis" Seems like having to be at the conference is priority one.

Fully agree!

Once I get my license I hope to be able to fly home to visit family but wouldn't consider it for a business trip. Too much pressure.

Disagree, but add the caution that you need to have a backup ready to go, which is why I (and others) suggested not canceling the Southwest tickets.

 

[Henning]

Yeah sure, why not. However, lookk at your terrain situation, and you'll see that rather than going straight line you can gain a safer path through the mountains if you dogleg South a bit before you cross. 172 in the summer isn't exactly a climbing machine, and you'll want to depart first light going both directions, so if you're getting morning marine layer you might want to pre position out at CCR for departure. This is going to put you in the coolest most comfortable air, before the noontime convection really picks up and starts producing thunderstorms in the desert out by the river.

 

[pilot117]

Once above 8k, lean for best power, you can't damage the engine if you're that high.

I'd caution giving out this kind of advice. It is entirely possible to lean to best power above 8000 and cook an engine. Inefficient baffling can lead to inadequate cooling, small intake air leaks, or uneven fuel distribution to all cylinders can all lead to dangerously high CHT's. I have an 0360 in my plane and monitor CHT's closely while leaning. My #3 & #4 cylinders run much hotter than #1 & #2 once I start leaning. I'd venture to guess I could get #3 & #4 to 420 degrees with the cowl flaps shut @ 8500 with #1 & #2 remaining below Lycoming's recommended 380 degrees. Without having an engine analyzer with CHT's and EGT's on all cylinders you could easily be flying around smiling with the stock CHT gauge in the green, all the while running much hotter than the manufacturer recommendations.

 

[onwards]

Thanks for all the help everyone!

As someone says (and my original post wonders about) it does seem like Mammoth is the right way to cross over - that was my plan once I looked over the charts. But I will pore over them more closely over the weekend, and try all the routes folks have suggested.

I do have refundable tix - I usually only buy those for my business trips. Too often these have to be changed or canceled last minute, so it's a habit. When your travel costs are entirely deductible, it also makes financial sense. So the plan would certainly be to keep them until I don't use them (heck, I'll probably keep the entire roundtrip until after the trip back, just in case).

From all I'm reading though, this is certainly feasible, which makes me quite happy. I'll spend more time this weekend trying to figure out if I want to do it... the main challenge appears to be that I would have to leave in mid afternoon, not early morning. That places me over the mountains around 5PM. Sounds like bad mojo DA-wise. On the way back I was going to fly out of LV around 7PM, so no problem from a DA perspective (I'm sure it will be cooler), and I should be done crossing comfortably before it's too dark to see anything (and have a nice night leg some of the way home, which I would look forward to on account of how much I like flying at night).

Thank you all, again.

 

[Henning]

From all I'm reading though, this is certainly feasible, which makes me quite happy. I'll spend more time this weekend trying to figure out if I want to do it... the main challenge appears to be that I would have to leave in mid afternoon, not early morning. That places me over the mountains around 5PM. Sounds like bad mojo DA-wise. On the way back I was going to fly out of LV around 7PM, so no problem from a DA perspective (I'm sure it will be cooler), and I should be done crossing comfortably before it's too dark to see anything (and have a nice night leg some of the way home, which I would look forward to on account of how much I like flying at night).

Thank you all, again.

Not advised, in a couple weeks the days will be yet shorter and you won't have a moon. Not a wise situation to be in on your route of flight in a low powered SE plane. You will end up over the mountains and hostile territory in the dark. Doubly not a good idea not being instrument rated. Save night flying for full moons.

 

[onwards]

Not advised, in a couple weeks the days will be yet shorter and you won't have a moon. Not a wise situation to be in on your route of flight in a low powered SE plane. You will end up over the mountains and hostile territory in the dark. Doubly not a good idea not being instrument rated. Save night flying for full moons.

Thank you. Do you mind giving me a bit more info on your comment? it would seem to me that I would be past the mountains around 8:30PM - more or less the beginning of civil twilight - and into pretty flat terrain (and also one that I am familiar with, having flown it at day and night). Where am I going wrong?

EDIT: just double-checked - it's more like 2 hours. So I'd have to leave 630PM instead of 7PM to make the above valid, I think.

 

[pericynthion]

If you're anything like me you'll end up actually getting airborne at least 30 minutes later than you originally intended to. So if you're going to head out in the evening and cross the mountains before sunset, allow yourself plenty of buffer. Set yourself a hard deadline for taxi-out and if you miss that, go back to a hotel and leave in the morning.

Personally I would just plan on staying another night and heading back in the early morning, that way you'll have smoother air, no time pressure and the sun won't be in your face.

 

[MBDiagMan]

I think that flying to Vegas would be a great idea AS LONG AS YOU DON'T FLY AT NIGHT!!!!!!! For a low time, non IR pilot to fly across the desert at night is NOT a good idea.

If you make the flight make sure you log it clearly because this flight will qualify as the long cross country for your commercial rating.

Doc

 

[Henning]

Thank you. Do you mind giving me a bit more info on your comment? it would seem to me that I would be past the mountains around 8:30PM - more or less the beginning of civil twilight - and into pretty flat terrain (and also one that I am familiar with, having flown it at day and night). Where am I going wrong?

EDIT: just double-checked - it's more like 2 hours. So I'd have to leave 630PM instead of 7PM to make the above valid, I think.

One thing I have learned in 20+ years of GA is you never leave on time because you're having too much fun or you run into a glitch or delay, and whenever you have to get to a certain point at a certain time to avoid something you will have a headwind that will put you exactly where you didn't want to be when you didn't want to be there.

It's just not good practice to schedule yourself tightly in front a a bad situation. For what it's worth, flying a similar route (LV-LGB ) on a dark night is what convinced me to buy a twin with only a PP and 60hrsTT experience. I've been a mechanic most my entire life (I was born with "The Knack") and I don't trust engines to keep running lol. It's kinda like ER staff and motorcycles. The real numbers aren't all that bad, but when you see the results of what goes wrong everyday while making a living, it warps your decision making process a bit. So since I enjoy traveling at night, I opted for redundancy.

Also, just because you're not over mountains, does not mean there is no hazard below in the dark. If you can't see in some detail where you are going in from altitude, you are still playing craps with survival, you're just betting "Come/ Don't Come" instead of "Eight the Hard Way". Trees, ditches, power lines, power poles, even flat farm country will kill you if you can't pick and choose where you go in. Houses aren't particularly friendly either. People can say what they want about twins being more dangerous, but 5 failures in twins ended up on a runway rolling out just fine. In singles I avoid night (unless good moonlight) and IMC (unless there is say 2500' ceilings) because I am chicken s--t and don't trust engines. I work on them, they are a fickle breed. If I do have to fly SE in conditions I am not fond of, I do it Low IFR, I Follow (big) Roads and I stay Low. This has it's inherent risks as well. If it would be a full moon, I'd say lets go. No moon? ehhhhh, that's just leaving the ground with one too many things stacked against me. I'd wait for first light, you'll be in by 10. Either that or "plan" on leaving at 4. If you "need" to get off the ground at a certain time traveling GA, you still need to be at the airport 2 hrs early. Same as with airline travel, and same as well, it may only take you half an hour, but it may not, it's not only an airplane, it's a rental. The good thing is you have refundable airline tickets.

 

[onwards]

I think that flying to Vegas would be a great idea AS LONG AS YOU DON'T FLY AT NIGHT!!!!!!! For a low time, non IR pilot to fly across the desert at night is NOT a good idea.

If you make the flight make sure you log it clearly because this flight will qualify as the long cross country for your commercial rating.

Doc

Doc,

Thank you. I don't intend to fly the desert or more importantly the mountains at night... I'm not suicidal

I would, however, very much enjoy a bit of night flying on the way back, given that I am past the challenging part by then (that is, having safely crossed the mountains near Fresno), and would therefore try to arrange for that to happen. As such, it seems that I should try to work it so I get TO that last mountain section around the start of civil twilight.

As for commercial - thanks for the tip, that's worth knowing, although it isn't my plan to ever make this into a career; as a diabetic, I am happy enough to have and be able to maintain a special issuance 3rd class... anything beyond that would be tempting the fates of bureaucracy

 

[Henning]

Personally I would just plan on staying another night and heading back in the early morning, that way you'll have smoother air, no time pressure and the sun won't be in your face.

Not to mention it is an absolutely GORGEOUS trip in the rising light. One of my best flights, I was coming back from Vegas to Long Beach, we launched in the still darkness slightly before dawn. I was on with Edwards Approach, the sky behind me was red orange at the horizon and the sky in front of me was a deep brilliant violet and Edwards pipes up "04Y, Traffic at your 12 O' Clock descending out of 120,000 feet, The Space Shuttle" I look up and could see the dot Glowing brighter now, the last of the "stars" and it was growing more brilliant. "Yeah, 04Y has the traffic will maintain visual separation... thanks for the call, sure is pretty...."

Early morning is the time to cross the dessert....

 

[Jaybird180]

Not to mention it is an absolutely GORGEOUS trip in the rising light. One of my best flights, I was coming back from Vegas to Long Beach, we launched in the still darkness slightly before dawn. I was on with Edwards Approach, the sky behind me was red orange at the horizon and the sky in front of me was a deep brilliant violet and Edwards pipes up "04Y, Traffic at your 12 O' Clock descending out of 120,000 feet, The Space Shuttle" I look up and could see the dot Glowing brighter now, the last of the "stars" and it was growing more brilliant. "Yeah, 04Y has the traffic will maintain visual separation... thanks for the call, sure is pretty...."

Early morning is the time to cross the dessert....

Henning- that was poetic.

Onwards- no pressure Bro, but if you make this round-trip, you too can have a yellow belt

 

[onwards]

Excellent input Henning... I am starting to think that I really want to do this flight - but maybe not for this trip, with the additional business related time pressures (can't wait for Monday morning, for example).

 

[MBDiagMan]

Doc,

Thank you. I don't intend to fly the desert or more importantly the mountains at night... I'm not suicidal

I would, however, very much enjoy a bit of night flying on the way back, given that I am past the challenging part by then (that is, having safely crossed the mountains near Fresno), and would therefore try to arrange for that to happen. As such, it seems that I should try to work it so I get TO that last mountain section around the start of civil twilight.

As for commercial - thanks for the tip, that's worth knowing, although it isn't my plan to ever make this into a career; as a diabetic, I am happy enough to have and be able to maintain a special issuance 3rd class... anything beyond that would be tempting the fates of bureaucracy

Onwards,

I would URGE you to buy and read a book entitled "The Killing Zone." It is chocked full, on every page, of advice and wisdom such as the lengthy post that Henning wrote regarding planning on delays and such.

In that book, among MANY other valuable things, they lay out the accident statistics regarding non IR Private Pilots and non Commercial pilots accidents as opposed to IR rated or Commercial rated pilots. MANY people attain a Commercial rating with little or no plans for actual commercial flying. The reason they cite is the fact that extended training even if it were for a commercial with no instrument rating is further experience and training that will make a much safer pilot out of you.

I will check the FAR's, but I'm pretty sure that you can attain a commercial rating with a third class medical.

The book is only about $20 from Amazon or other such vendor. If I reach my goal of being a CFI, I plan on offering it as a successfull checkride gift to anyone I'm able to get through their checkride. The book is a REAL eye opener.

Doc

 

[murphey]

Also, just because you're not over mountains, does not mean there is no hazard below in the dark. If you can't see in some detail where you are going in from altitude, you are still playing craps with survival, you're just betting "Come/ Don't Come" instead of "Eight the Hard Way".

I prefer across the Back Line.

 

[Henning]

Excellent input Henning... I am starting to think that I really want to do this flight - but maybe not for this trip, with the additional business related time pressures (can't wait for Monday morning, for example).

Then like I said, "plan" to leave at 4 and you'll be good leaving at 5:30-6:00. It'll be hot and bumpy taking off, but it'll get better quick. If you're gonna fly, there are some days it'll be hot and bumpy.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Also if you plan on doing some more mountain flying in the future (landing at mountain airports, not just flying over them) I would highly recommend that you spend some time in them with a CFI that knows mountains - there are a lot of tricks and traps about mountain flying, like using the upslope winds to your advantage, avoiding box canyons, leaving maneuvering room for reversing course on crossings, etc.... which can make the difference between a fun experience and a disasterous one. My complex/HP endorsment was about five hours of taking a Bonanza in and out of various mountain airports, and my insurance checkout when I got my Arrow was about ten hours of the same.

I second the notion that a morning departure either direction is preferable to an evening departure this time of year. Even if it's not totally dark, the shadows can hide a lot and make everything look different - particularly with the sun in your eyes. Granite peaks become invisible.

That said, do your planning right, watch the WX and DA's, leave ample time cushions and you can have a fun flight.

 

[gprellwitz]

There's a copy of The Killing Zone in the PoA library, but I don't remember who has it right now. It's a good read.

I'll second what Sac and Henning said about flying West over the mountains in the late evening. You'll be flying into a low sun in your eyes with deep shadows. Plus, you've added an additional time pressure.

 

[Henning]

I will check the FAR's, but I'm pretty sure that you can attain a commercial rating with a third class medical.


Doc

I'm pretty sure you can obtain an ATP with a third class, you only have to have the correct medical to "exercise the privileges" of the rating. IE, the operation determines what medical is required, not the rating.

 

[gprellwitz]

I'm pretty sure you can obtain an ATP with a third class, you only have to have the correct medical to "exercise the privileges" of the rating. IE, the operation determines what medical is required, not the rating.

 

[Henning]

I'm pretty sure you can even take the checkrides with no medical as long as the DE agrees to be PIC.

 

[gprellwitz]

I'm pretty sure you can even take the checkrides with no medical as long as the DE agrees to be PIC.

Maybe technically, but I would imagine finding one willing to do that may be a challenge. I could be pleasantly surprised, though!

 

[Everskyward]

Maybe technically, but I would imagine finding one willing to do that may be a challenge. I could be pleasantly surprised, though!

You can also do it if it's 100% in a sim.

 

[gprellwitz]

You can also do it if it's 100% in a sim.

Good point. Of course, the sim needs to be approved for all the required test elements. That's typically a more advanced sim than the AFTD you will find in the common FBO, right?

 

[Everskyward]

That's typically a more advanced sim than the AFTD you will find in the common FBO, right?

True.

I was curious about how some instructors at our training provider were getting type ratings because I know some of them don't hold medicals. I was mostly curious because they always ask to see the customer's medicals, along with passport and pilot's certificate at the beginning of training. They said that they check the customer's medical for paperwork purposes but that they wouldn't send you home if you didn't have one.

 

[Henning]

True.

I was curious about how some instructors at our training provider were getting type ratings because I know some of them don't hold medicals. I was mostly curious because they always ask to see the customer's medicals, along with passport and pilot's certificate at the beginning of training. They said that they check the customer's medical for paperwork purposes but that they wouldn't send you home if you didn't have one.

I bet they would be required to report it to TSA though.... Then some moron decides to put you on the "No Fly" list...

That makes me wonder, the FBI agents who took the calls from the flight instructors, where are they now? People here always complain about the Italians and French prosecuting people criminally for failing at their jobs, but some times, that's appropriate. That should have ended up with somebody(s) prosecuted for 3000 counts of Manslaughter.

In America, we nurture failure....

 

[kontiki]

I read the OP and only a few of the replies. If I had to be at the conference on time (maybe presenting), and I didn't have my IFR rating, I'd plan to travel on a commercial carrier, maybe not the last flight possible.

My personal rule as a VFR pilot was never count on getting anywhere at any particular time.

Even the notion of a scheduled airlines is something of a misnomer. If I book a flight on the 2:48 PM flight out of XYZ, that means a late afternoon/early evening departure if you get to the airport a little after lunch. Beween 2 and 3 may have some relevancy, the 8 minutes is a joke.