Army Aviators and Officers, advice?

gitmo234

gitmo234

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gitmo234
Ladies and Gents,

I'm serve in the national guard as an officer. I'm an 11A, first lieutenant. Was just picked up for Space Operations (functional area 40A), and I'm completing space 200, the first part of the qualification now.

I'm sitting in an O-4 billet, although I'm a 1LT, I dont have command time yet either.

I also have a really really good full time federal job, I make more at that then what I make on active duty orders as an officer.

With those decision points in mind, I'm wanting opinions on aviation. I ask because I am consistently bothered about applying for aviation. It seems like a near monthly thing I get emails or messages on applying for aviation for different states, to include today when I received an email from my state asking me to apply and all the packet instructions.

So it seems the total school is about 12-15 months long which is a long time to be away from my wife who is also full-time employed. On the other hand it's a once in a lifetime sort of offer and I'm already beyond the max age (was told that would be waived).

I'm also at the point in my career, even though I just got picked up for space, that I'm starting to get a bit frustrated with the whole system and what not. To the extent that I'm considering resigning in a few years just so I dont have to deal with it.

Opinions please?
 
Follow your heart both are excellent opportunities, space command has different opportunities than flying though. It's one of those tough chices of which path to follow. Good luck with it.
 
I went to flight school in 1983 and was part of the first Aviation OBC class since the Army Air Corps now the Air Force ... If you stay reserve component rank is painful in Reserve Aviation...if you want to fly go for it, as its not a primary job...also based on current ascensions, unless your the State Aviation Officers Bastard Child the age waiver is a tough hurdle. I was an RA Officer but spent mucho time with Guard and Reserve Units...just because your getting the solicitation emails does not mean anything...and please don't waist time and taxpayer dollars if its something more than a novelty....one of the reasons reserve only pilots (Never Active Duty) cause problems with units.
 
Henning said:
Follow your heart both are excellent opportunities, space command has different opportunities than flying though. It's one of those tough chices of which path to follow. Good luck with it.
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Thanks! I always enjoy your answers. In my state, occupying a billet higher than your rank doesn't guarantee you'll be promoted. A bunch of O-6's do a board and decided the top % to promote. I just got my notification letter that when I get back this weekend I'm taking a PT test and putting in my promotion packet. I made the cut the first time around..

I need to figure out what I want to do overall I guess.. stay in or get out. The aviation recruiter said the age waiver hasnt historically been a problem due to the sheer number of aviators needed and my flight experience on the civilian side (and being only 1 year over) it would be a formality.

I'm honestly surprised I've done as well as I have. I've always been convinced the Army (or any branch) wouldn't tolerate my natural dislike of authority, but so far so good.

My Senior rater has laid out for me that if I stay in Space, I will be here another year, then take command of the operations company for a year or two, then come right back and then pick where to go next/what to do. Stay in space or go with another career field. I have no desire to return back to 11A work, I do just fine in it but I dont drink the kool aid enough.
 
gitmo234 said:
Thanks! I always enjoy your answers. In my state, occupying a billet higher than your rank doesn't guarantee you'll be promoted. A bunch of O-6's do a board and decided the top % to promote. I just got my notification letter that when I get back this weekend I'm taking a PT test and putting in my promotion packet. I made the cut the first time around..

I need to figure out what I want to do overall I guess.. stay in or get out. The aviation recruiter said the age waiver hasnt historically been a problem due to the sheer number of aviators needed and my flight experience on the civilian side (and being only 1 year over) it would be a formality.

I'm honestly surprised I've done as well as I have. I've always been convinced the Army (or any branch) wouldn't tolerate my natural dislike of authority, but so far so good.

My Senior rater has laid out for me that if I stay in Space, I will be here another year, then take command of the operations company for a year or two, then come right back and then pick where to go next/what to do. Stay in space or go with another career field. I have no desire to return back to 11A work, I do just fine in it but I dont drink the kool aid enough.
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No worries. What I do when I face these types of decisions is to sit back and look at where the two futures take you, and which one you would rather see yourself in. If it's two good choices, it's one the toughest choice you ever will make.
 
gitmo234 said:
Thanks! I always enjoy your answers. In my state, occupying a billet higher than your rank doesn't guarantee you'll be promoted. A bunch of O-6's do a board and decided the top % to promote. I just got my notification letter that when I get back this weekend I'm taking a PT test and putting in my promotion packet. I made the cut the first time around..

I need to figure out what I want to do overall I guess.. stay in or get out. The aviation recruiter said the age waiver hasnt historically been a problem due to the sheer number of aviators needed and my flight experience on the civilian side (and being only 1 year over) it would be a formality.

I'm honestly surprised I've done as well as I have. I've always been convinced the Army (or any branch) wouldn't tolerate my natural dislike of authority, but so far so good.

My Senior rater has laid out for me that if I stay in Space, I will be here another year, then take command of the operations company for a year or two, then come right back and then pick where to go next/what to do. Stay in space or go with another career field. I have no desire to return back to 11A work, I do just fine in it but I dont drink the kool aid enough.
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Based on this alone I think a career in Army Aviation for you is a mistake...your currently clueless....good luck in your career in space....
 
I'm active duty (air defense artillery) so I can't speak for life in the NG or reserves but I have several friends who transferred via the voluntary transfer incentive program to FA 40 (space ops) and many more who were not selected. Asked a couple in the functional area now about getting out or transferring again and they said it was next to impossible due to their ADSO. My advice is if your heart isn't in space ops and you have the opportunity to go aviation take it and never look back. Best of luck.

-John
 
One thing I would recommend is you talk with current guys in your local AVN unit. You might just find that one weekend/month and two weeks/year won't keep you current in the helicopter, much less build your proficiency for upgrades.

I know on the USAF side, our ANG flyers are doing well more than the traditional commitment in traditional guard units.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
It's depends on what your ultimate goal is. Is it to stay with your current govt full time job or transfer to being a full time aviator? If you're looking at trying to make a career in aviation after the military, NG and commission is the worst path to take. If you're looking at keeping your full time govt gig and just fly part time NG, then it could be a rewarding experience.

Worked with NG plenty of times and had a bunch of former NG students at Rucker. While AD and NG are worlds apart, a few things are the same. First, the WOs are the pilots. As tactical and technical experts, it's their job to fly. As a 1LT, your job will most likely be a Plt Ldr. You're not going to have the priority in getting flight hours like the WOs. On top of that, your commander is going to dish off all the extraneous duties that he doesn't want to do and give them to you. You'll spend your days sitting behind a desk doing power point slides while the WOs are out flying. Second, as a whole NG just doesn't fly as much as AD. If your state uses 60s you'll have the same semiannual mins (48 hrs) as AD. You'll probably get a little more than that because NG has a certain number of training events assigned in order to meet those mins. You'll get just over 100 hrs annually. Depending on how strapped for cash your NG unit is, some of that may be sim time. Finally, while the WOs in your unit will pretty much remain line pilots, as an LT eventually you'll be assigned to other positions such as S1, S3 or S4. Your flying time will further be cut to 30 hrs semiannually.

So, if your goal is to just do the aviation thing part time on the side, it's not a bad path. If ultimately your end career is to be a pilot, then go WO. I'd further refine that to go AD WO. It's definitely possible to fly civilian while NG or even after your obligation / retirement. I work with a few of those guys. I just think AD would bring you closer to the goal of flying professionally.

I agree with the above as well. Go to your local NG unit and ask around. Good luck.
 
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Velocity173 said:
It's depends on what your ultimate goal is. Is it to stay with your current govt full time job or transfer to being a full time aviator? If you're looking at trying to make a career in aviation after the military, NG and commission is the worst path to take. If you're looking at keeping your full time govt gig and just fly part time NG, then it could be a rewarding experience.

Worked with NG plenty of times and had a bunch of former NG students at Rucker. While AD and NG are worlds apart, a few things are the same. First, the WOs are the pilots. As tactical and technical experts, it's their job to fly. As a 1LT, your job will most likely be a Plt Ldr. You're not going to have the priority in getting flight hours like the WOs. On top of that, your commander is going to dish off all the extraneous duties that he doesn't want to do and give them to you. You'll spend your days sitting behind a desk doing power point slides while the WOs are out flying. Second, as a whole NG just doesn't fly as much as AD. If your state uses 60s you'll have the same semiannual mins (48 hrs) as AD. You'll probably get a little more than that because NG has a certain number of training events assigned in order to meet those mins. You'll get just over 100 hrs annually. Depending on how strapped for cash your NG unit is, some of that may be sim time. Finally, while the WOs in your unit will pretty much remain line pilots, as an LT eventually you'll be assigned to other positions such as S1, S3 or S4. Your flying time will further be cut to 30 hrs semiannually.

So, if your goal is to just do the aviation thing part time on the side, it's not a bad path. If ultimately your end career is to be a pilot, then go WO. I'd further refine that to go AD WO. It's definitely possible to fly civilian while NG or even after your obligation / retirement. I work with a few of those guys. I just think AD would bring you closer to the goal of flying professionally.

I agree with the above as well. Go to your local NG unit and ask around. Good luck.
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Is there even a process for re-commissioning as a WO? That doesn't sound like a good plan either.
 
There are plenty of options for you, but both involve a long ADSO. I am a CPT at Fort Rucker right now. I went through flight school in 2009 and have been doing this for a minute or two. There's both good and bad with reverting to WO as stated above. You can be as competent an aviator (I'm an IP) as a WO or you can be the O grade that does the minimum amout of flying required. I've had one line command and one TRADOC. I know we fly a desk more than the airplane (helicopter for those of you who will try to sharp shoot me), but that is partially based on your skill level. Your AV branch experience will be different than the next guy and all I can do is tell you mine. I am a PC(IP) and AMC and fly pretty much as much as I want/can while still getting my desk jockey work done. I am sure I am not the norm. The suggestion about asking the local unit LTs what their life is like is the best advice you will get. They live it day to day and you can pretty much assume that's what you will be doing as well. I'm AD so I don't know too much about NG ops, but I've worked with them a lot and they all seem fairly competent. As stated by Mcfly, all minimums are the same regardless of component.

Without writing a dissertation please feel free to send me any questions.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Is there even a process for re-commissioning as a WO? That doesn't sound like a good plan either.
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Well technically WOs (CW2-CW5)are commissioned officers these days. We still use the term "commisioned" and "warrant" to distinguish amongst the two though. Warrants are different in that they don't get assigned a command position; outside of a few spots at Rucker that is. You're still considered an commisioned officer based on the Army's definition, you just concentrate more on your MOS than the commissioned 1LTs, CPTs etc.


Yes, I've known several commisioned officers who resigned their commission to go warrant. I suppose they got tired of the stress involved in command positions. There's an incredible amount of responsibility and expectations on those guys. I wouldn't want it.

I also have known former warrants get commisioned as LTs. Generally these are guys who desire more to lead than the selfish reason of joining just to fly. They're people who have seen bad leaders in the past and think they'll do a better job when they're in that position. I remember once in flight school talking to a WO1 friend of mine. I asked what airframe he wanted to fly. He said he didn't care and that he wanted to go LT as soon as he completed his degree. He said "I really don't care about the flying part. I just wanna lead soldiers." To each his own I guess. For me, being where the rubber meets the road is where I wanted to be. I wanted to fly with as little extraneous nonsense as possible. Know your aircraft and know your mission like the back of your hand. That's what truly matters. That's where you affect the greatest change and get the most reward...IMO.

Things have changed in the past 10 yrs though. It's no longer the "high school to flight school" Army Aviation anymore. Coming in with no college is very rare. I had 2.5 yrs when I got picked up in 99. Duties between warrants and commisioned are blurred these days. WO branch insignia went away years ago. Warrants and commission attend the same leadership course (BOLC) in flight school. A lot more additional duties are put on the backs of warrants. It's no longer a flying club for warrants. In a way, that's a good thing. They want a far more qualified and well rounded WO than they had maybe 20 yrs ago.

Personally, I don't think right now is a good time to be in. Cutbacks across the board have hurt Army Aviation. Airframes such as the OH-58 being eliminated for an Apache - drone combo. Flight school hours cut in favor of sim time. Never ending training events that have nothing to do with fighting and winning wars. Guys getting passed over for promotion and getting forced out. I was lucky, the entire time I was in, I got promoted early and operated on an almost unlimited budget. Now that the major wars are over, the buroecratic BS begins.
 
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Well technically WOs are commissioned officers these days.
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My younger brother was a Cobra pilot during the cold war. The distiction he made was between 'warrant officers (WOs)' and 'real live officers (RLOs)'.
 
I was real unique...Reserve Commission Early Commissioning...three months later RA the day after West Point Graduated (Date of Rank Thing) resigned to fly (CW2) actually took Command of a D company in that rank and then Re-Commissioned later, and declined twice to 0-5 to stay in Aviation as long as possible.

The above would be impossible today...we started Commissioning WO's in the late 80's (CW3's and 4's) and progress to the system today where Branch insignia is worn.
 
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There are several different manuals that one must research depending on the context to determine which category a Warrant would fall in when you talk technicalities on being a "commissioned" officer. I learned a lot of this from command and doing this research myself. They are commissioned upon promotion to CW2. They are authorized "Field Grade" housing, per the housing manual, upon promotion to CW4, however, they are still considered "Company Grade" officers for UCMJ and IAW AR 600-20.

None of this is really applies to the OP, though. That decision is on him and where he sees his life going. I can tell you my first wife left me because I went AD and she wasn't leaving her family and her job. Food for thought.
 
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the primary technical difference between a commissioned officer and a warrant officer that one is commissioned by the president, and the other by congress? That's how my dad explained it.

I myself was enlisted Army. I would have been the aviation warrant officer commissioning program myself except I didn't have the eyesight at the time for it. Although if I did, I wouldn't have gone enlisted Army in the first place. I would have gone in to Navy aviation via the OCS route.
 
Velocity173 said:
It's depends on what your ultimate goal is. Is it to stay with your current govt full time job or transfer to being a full time aviator? If you're looking at trying to make a career in aviation after the military, NG and commission is the worst path to take. If you're looking at keeping your full time govt gig and just fly part time NG, then it could be a rewarding experience.

Worked with NG plenty of times and had a bunch of former NG students at Rucker. While AD and NG are worlds apart, a few things are the same. First, the WOs are the pilots. As tactical and technical experts, it's their job to fly. As a 1LT, your job will most likely be a Plt Ldr. You're not going to have the priority in getting flight hours like the WOs. On top of that, your commander is going to dish off all the extraneous duties that he doesn't want to do and give them to you. You'll spend your days sitting behind a desk doing power point slides while the WOs are out flying. Second, as a whole NG just doesn't fly as much as AD. If your state uses 60s you'll have the same semiannual mins (48 hrs) as AD. You'll probably get a little more than that because NG has a certain number of training events assigned in order to meet those mins. You'll get just over 100 hrs annually. Depending on how strapped for cash your NG unit is, some of that may be sim time. Finally, while the WOs in your unit will pretty much remain line pilots, as an LT eventually you'll be assigned to other positions such as S1, S3 or S4. Your flying time will further be cut to 30 hrs semiannually.

So, if your goal is to just do the aviation thing part time on the side, it's not a bad path. If ultimately your end career is to be a pilot, then go WO. I'd further refine that to go AD WO. It's definitely possible to fly civilian while NG or even after your obligation / retirement. I work with a few of those guys. I just think AD would bring you closer to the goal of flying professionally.

I agree with the above as well. Go to your local NG unit and ask around. Good luck.
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I had just about completed my 4th year of ROTC, 8 year contract and all and was offered an voluntary release from ROTC. I had pretty much figured out what he says above and figured my chances of even getting into an Aviation unit was fairly low to begin with. So I took the voluntary release. I already have my Private Pilot certificate, and used the Student Loan Repayment Program Money to complete my Instrument Rating. I then got my Commercial and Flight instructor certificates and do probably more flying part time than I probably would have done in the Army as an Officer. While not flying expensive high tech military equipment, I think I probably have more fun doing so.

Brian
 
brcase said:
I had just about completed my 4th year of ROTC, 8 year contract and all and was offered an voluntary release from ROTC. I had pretty much figured out what he says above and figured my chances of even getting into an Aviation unit was fairly low to begin with. So I took the voluntary release. I already have my Private Pilot certificate, and used the Student Loan Repayment Program Money to complete my Instrument Rating. I then got my Commercial and Flight instructor certificates and do probably more flying part time than I probably would have done in the Army as an Officer. While not flying expensive high tech military equipment, I think I probably have more fun doing so.

Brian
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That is very subjective. I went through R.O.T.C., was selected for AD and Aviation. I don't know how much you have flown and likewise you do not know how much I have flown. Each person's experience will vary. I have an absolute blast flying the Apache and have a lot of flight time in just my few years. It is a job, though.

Edit: It all comes down to end state. I am, as I suspect most of you are, goal oriented. I have several different plans to attain one single goal. If you want to be a pilot then be a pilot any way you can squeeze. If you want to fly an Apache well there's only one way to do that...
 
Soldier64 said:
That is very subjective. I went through R.O.T.C., was selected for AD and Aviation. I don't know how much you have flown and likewise you do not know how much I have flown. Each person's experience will vary. I have an absolute blast flying the Apache and have a lot of flight time in just my few years. It is a job, though.

Edit: It all comes down to end state. I am, as I suspect most of you are, goal oriented. I have several different plans to attain one single goal. If you want to be a pilot then be a pilot any way you can squeeze. If you want to fly an Apache well there's only one way to do that...
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Agreed, it was just my analysis of my situation 25 years ago. The military was downsizing a lot then. I.E. the option for voluntary release. If I had been going in as a Warrant Officer I probably would have had a different view of it, since it seemed the WO's did most of the flying.

Shortly after getting my CFI, I trained an Apache pilot from our local National Guard unit to get his fixed wing rating. The problem then was that funding was so low they seldom had more than one or two flyable aircraft due to parts shortages. Probably would have been better in an active duty unit.

Brian
 
Sac Arrow said:
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the primary technical difference between a commissioned officer and a warrant officer that one is commissioned by the president, and the other by congress? That's how my dad explained it.

I myself was enlisted Army. I would have been the aviation warrant officer commissioning program myself except I didn't have the eyesight at the time for it. Although if I did, I wouldn't have gone enlisted Army in the first place. I would have gone in to Navy aviation via the OCS route.
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A WO1 is appointed by the Secretary of The Army. I believe in 2011 they tried to change the appointment to a commission but I don't think that passed. Anyway, at CW2 you are commisioned by the President just as a LT is.

None of that changes anything. One day you're a "WOJG" and the next you're a CW2 commisioned by the Preseident. Doesn't change your day to day duties in the least bit.

All of these ranks and positions are MTOEd out in the company so you have X number of line WOs flying aircraft, generally two LTs for Plt Ldr and a CPT for company commander. Everyone knows their roles and generally there is a cohesive enviroment. The rank structure is obviously different than other services but it works well in the Army.
 
brcase said:
Agreed, it was just my analysis of my situation 25 years ago. The military was downsizing a lot then. I.E. the option for voluntary release. If I had been going in as a Warrant Officer I probably would have had a different view of it, since it seemed the WO's did most of the flying.

Shortly after getting my CFI, I trained an Apache pilot from our local National Guard unit to get his fixed wing rating. The problem then was that funding was so low they seldom had more than one or two flyable aircraft due to parts shortages. Probably would have been better in an active duty unit.

Brian
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Aviation always has some issues involvng money. It takes roughly 40% of the Army's budget and is about 12% of the force. (Armor is the next biggest budget.) NG has the benefit of being federally subsidized and state funded. This can help them with flying dollars, but they are not top priority for parts from manufacturers. That, as you can imagine, goes to AD units and compo 1 more so.

Hope this is a little insigt to the Army Aviation world.
 
Bill,

I'm probably going to shoot you some questions. I've actually spent a few hours talking with a lot of aviators for the guard and all are basically encouraging me to do it.

Long story short this all started at a wedding reception when I sat across the table from the state adjutant general (who was a close friend of the groom and myself). He spent most of the time trying to talking me into going aviation. He wanted to push me from UH-60 to fixed wing (he had my whole career planned). It caught my interested and since then has slowly snowballed into seriously considered it. Right now they're recruiting hot and heavy for 4 different airframes.

Basically, my goal is not to be a full time pilot. I enjoy flying and want to fly as much as possible but I have an excellent full time career and love what I do equally as much, and to be honestly, I've done well enough that active duty pay wont touch my salary for years to come.

I would prefer to stay an O, but would consider WO, but I honestly love the leadership portion, and its where I do best (especially in the field). So I'd like to retain some portion of that. That being said, I probably get along best with WOs.


Any idea if I will have to go to AVBOLC, since I have already completed IBOLC?

Being at school I don't have easy access to the recruiter to ask.

My wife actually looked into it, she's fairly positive she can get temporary duty assignment to her headquarters (near Huntsville) as a federal employee so she's more or less calling it my choice which was a primary concern of mine. That and I'm getting ready to get pulled to DA level in my civilian career to modernize a national level project, but then again, no time is convienent
 
My vote would be to quit sucking the tax payers tit and get a job.

If you have the chops for it, leave the millitary complex and start a business, provide some jobs for people, that'll help America far more then killing folks, plus you might even make more money and be your own boss.


The millitary was never intended to be a career.
 
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gitmo234 said:
Bill,

I'm probably going to shoot you some questions. I've actually spent a few hours talking with a lot of aviators for the guard and all are basically encouraging me to do it.

Long story short this all started at a wedding reception when I sat across the table from the state adjutant general (who was a close friend of the groom and myself). He spent most of the time trying to talking me into going aviation. He wanted to push me from UH-60 to fixed wing (he had my whole career planned). It caught my interested and since then has slowly snowballed into seriously considered it. Right now they're recruiting hot and heavy for 4 different airframes.

Basically, my goal is not to be a full time pilot. I enjoy flying and want to fly as much as possible but I have an excellent full time career and love what I do equally as much, and to be honestly, I've done well enough that active duty pay wont touch my salary for years to come.

I would prefer to stay an O, but would consider WO, but I honestly love the leadership portion, and its where I do best (especially in the field). So I'd like to retain some portion of that. That being said, I probably get along best with WOs.


Any idea if I will have to go to AVBOLC, since I have already completed IBOLC?

Being at school I don't have easy access to the recruiter to ask.

My wife actually looked into it, she's fairly positive she can get temporary duty assignment to her headquarters (near Huntsville) as a federal employee so she's more or less calling it my choice which was a primary concern of mine. That and I'm getting ready to get pulled to DA level in my civilian career to modernize a national level project, but then again, no time is convienent
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Gitmo (Don't know your real name),

Plan for 15-24 months for Initial Entry Rotory Wing (IERW) and then Flight School XXI. Especially if you get the FW course after FSXXI. The TAG is promising you the world and that's great. Be prepared to not get all of his promises if something happens to him.

I had branch transfer CPTs in my BOLC course. They didn't have to do all the BS we did but most of it.

I'm going to be extremely blunt... I love my job and I love flying the 64 and killing things, but we all know the Army can suck the fun out of a BJ... A lot of that happens regardless of your rank or airframe. I bought an Arrow because I love to fly and flying my plane is relaxing to me where flying the 64 takes a lot of brainpower and work (mission prep, not the actual flying.)

I look forward to talking to you and will gladly help anyway I can.

Thanks,
Bill
 
Velocity173 said:
A WO1 is appointed by the Secretary of The Army. I believe in 2011 they tried to change the appointment to a commission but I don't think that passed. Anyway, at CW2 you are commisioned by the President just as a LT is.

None of that changes anything. One day you're a "WOJG" and the next you're a CW2 commisioned by the Preseident. Doesn't change your day to day duties in the least bit.

All of these ranks and positions are MTOEd out in the company so you have X number of line WOs flying aircraft, generally two LTs for Plt Ldr and a CPT for company commander. Everyone knows their roles and generally there is a cohesive enviroment. The rank structure is obviously different than other services but it works well in the Army.
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Ahh that's right, got it. I was Infantry so the only WO's we ever dealt with (aside from our helicopter pilots, with whom we rarely interacted) were the occasional brigade level maintenance officers.
 
Yeah the fixed wing RA and NG spots are hot right now. They're short pilots everywhere. All these old dudes who have been sitting in those slots forever are starting to retire. Got friend flying C-12s who went from AD to RA. Seems to enjoy "the good life" now.
 
Soldier64 said:
James331 said:
My vote...QUOTE]

The only reason you get the choice to vote is because people like us hold a real job, and you were fortunate enough to be born here.

Carry on.
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Spare the tag lines, and this ain't the Nazis you're fighting.

Yeah, Muhammad is going to ride his donkey or drive his pickup across the ocean and launch a attack on American soil? I think not.

But whatever you need to tell yourself, be it you fancy yourself a new age crusader, or are naive enough to actually believe without you our way of life in the US would be under imminent "threat"

Again, when military becomes a well paying career, you end up with endless wars.

The folks you're fighting for don't have names, they have stock tickers.

I won't thank you for your "service" but I'm sure NOC, RTN and LMT would love to give you a adda' boy!
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Lol! And there's James out of left field. Yeah stop taking taxpayer's dollars pulling people of roofs in New Orleans. Stop using my money to fight forest fires around the country. Stop pulling lost hikers off of mountains and by all means stop busting these meth labs in North GA & TN. Please don't fly kids to the hospital either when their school is demolished by a tornado. My tax dollars can go for better things.:D

Army Guard provides a valuable service in each state they serve. In order to do that you need people stay in for a career. It takes years to get the experience necessary to pull off those missions. If everyone got out after 4 or 6 yrs, you'd have a constant turn over rate with no one to train the new people. Any corporation has to be staffed with experience in order to survive. NG is no different.
 
James331 said:
Soldier64 said:
Spare the tag lines, and this ain't the Nazis you're fighting.

Yeah, Muhammad is going to ride his donkey or drive his pickup across the ocean and launch a attack on American soil? I think not.

But whatever you need to tell yourself, be it you fancy yourself a new age crusader, or are naive enough to actually believe without you our way of life in the US would be under imminent "threat"

Again, when military becomes a well paying career, you end up with endless wars.

The folks you're fighting for don't have names, they have stock tickers.

I won't thank you for your "service" but I'm sure NOC, RTN and LMT would love to give you a adda' boy!
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No need to thank me. I love my job. He asked for help from Army Aviators and Officers. You are neither.

Freq change approved, see ya.
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Some guys just like to walk in to brother bars and scream the "N" word just for thrills.
 
James331 said:
My vote would be to quit sucking the tax payers tit and get a job.

If you have the chops for it, leave the millitary complex and start a business, provide some jobs for people, that'll help America far more then killing folks, plus you might even make more money and be your own boss.


The millitary was never intended to be a career.
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Ouch, that was messed up. Considering Washington served 18 years in military service (Virginia militia, Virginia Regiment, Continental Army, and United States Army), I'd be interested to hear where you came up with that nonsense.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Ahh that's right, got it. I was Infantry so the only WO's we ever dealt with (aside from our helicopter pilots, with whom we rarely interacted) were the occasional brigade level maintenance officers.
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Might have interacted with a few SF Warrants as well. They're rare but they're out there.
 
Best way to explain Army WO ranks:
 

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James331 said:
Spare the tag lines, and this ain't the Nazis you're fighting.

Yeah, Muhammad is going to ride his donkey or drive his pickup across the ocean and launch a attack on American soil? I think not.

But whatever you need to tell yourself, be it you fancy yourself a new age crusader, or are naive enough to actually believe without you our way of life in the US would be under imminent "threat"

Again, when military becomes a well paying career, you end up with endless wars.

The folks you're fighting for don't have names, they have stock tickers.

I won't thank you for your "service" but I'm sure NOC, RTN and LMT would love to give you a adda' boy!
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The thing about our military is that it has some of the best technical development and management ability the world has. The problem is really towards what it is tasked, not that it exists. If we retasked the budget and infrastructure to create food, water, and energy in efficient abundance distributed globally, we could use the same infrastructure to prevent conflict and wars, and raise the quality of humanity's output to a level that allows for evolution rather than extinction.


Right now our military serves to profit the wealthiest on the globe at the expense of human evolution.
 
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Henning said:
The thing about our military is that it has some of the best technical development and management ability the world has. The problem is really towards what it is tasked, not that it exists. If we retasked the budget and infrastructure to create food, water, and energy in efficient abundance distributed globally, we could use the same infrastructure to prevent conflict and wars, and raise the quality of humanity's output to a level that allows for evolution rather than extinction.


Right now our military serves to profit the wealthiest on the globe at the expense of human evolution.
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So feed the world, give them jobs and conflicts will cease to exist?
 
Velocity173 said:
So feed the world, give them jobs and conflicts will cease to exist?
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Yes, you provide that Mazlov's needs are filled and you eliminate the vast majority of discontent that allows despots to lead populations into war. I know that it's a radically new concept only recently introduced by Christ, with threatened enforcement through genocide through Islam, but we may want to give it a try. If you consider we gave John Nash a Nobel Prize for proving the increase in benefit from cooperative versus competetive economics, we really, really, really, should finally give it a try.

It's also the best way to end illegal immigration. People don't normally voluntarily leave a home the isn't a **** hole to come here and be treated as escaped and hunted slaves.
 
Henning said:
Yes, you provide that Mazlov's needs are filled and you eliminate the vast majority of discontent that allows despots to lead populations into war. I know that it's a radically new concept only recently introduced by Christ, with threatened enforcement through genocide through Islam, but we may want to give it a try. If you consider we gave John Nash a Nobel Prize for proving the increase in benefit from cooperative versus competetive economics, we really, really, really, should finally give it a try.

It's also the best way to end illegal immigration. People don't normally voluntarily leave a home the isn't a **** hole to come here and be treated as escaped and hunted slaves.
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Maslow is the commonly accepted version, Henning, not Mazlov...perhaps the name was Americanized when the family immigrated but it is what it is.
 
Henning said:
Yes, you provide that Mazlov's needs are filled and you eliminate the vast majority of discontent that allows despots to lead populations into war. I know that it's a radically new concept only recently introduced by Christ, with threatened enforcement through genocide through Islam, but we may want to give it a try. If you consider we gave John Nash a Nobel Prize for proving the increase in benefit from cooperative versus competetive economics, we really, really, really, should finally give it a try.

It's also the best way to end illegal immigration. People don't normally voluntarily leave a home the isn't a **** hole to come here and be treated as escaped and hunted slaves.
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In order to turn around some of these hell holes I've been to such as Afghanistan or Iraq, it'll take more than money and advice from developed countries. You're talking a complete cultural change. We tried that in both countries and it didn't work.

Same as Mexico or Honduras. It'll take more than assistance from us to want to keep them in their own country. No to mention, we don't have the resources to help every country that wants a hand out. Strife will always exist in impoverished countries. No way around it.
 
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