Areoshell 100 for winter?

I used the same oil the FBO used. ( his son in law was the ap.) he used it in a bonanza, a shrike, a sundowner , and a Sierra. I used it in a mooney . It was shell 20-50. The only other oil I used was in the Stearman which was straight shell 50 weight. In summer, as I didn't fly it in winter. Since I had to go light sport in 2000 I have used the same shell in anything I've owned ( 20-50) I have been told that the variable viscosity oil gets to the working parts of the engine much quicker than plain , say fifty weight, and that a tremendous amount of total wear occurs during start up, until the oil circulates, both by excellent, well trained mechanics I've known and by articles I've read. Anyone can look up good articles on this. It's hard to believe the FBO would have intentionally ruined his engines with inferior oil. I never had a problem. ......but I have had real bad mechanics screw up my airplanes on occasion. Usually a know it all.
 
Interesting....it's time to change my oil as it's now frigid and I had been using aeroshell 100w in my Continental O-300.

Someone (I believe Ron) commented that if I switched I'd see less oil burn. What oils do you recommend? There's a lot more available since the recommended oils were published in 1956.

Do I need to do a full oil change or can I just add in the new oil?

I have yet to do an oil change on her so I'm interested in learning how it goed
 
James331 said:
Funny thing, I've been reading a new book I just got, it mentioned seaplane operators removing their batteries and taking them in for the night, as well as their oil.

A good freezing winter precaution is drilling some small holes in the top sides of your crank case breather tube incase it freezes up.

You also have the pour point of your oil. You'll ether know it, or see it when your oil congeals in your cooler and pressure spikes.

100W -4F

15/50 -43F

This is far colder then most here will fly in, but.. Even with a good preheat, split weight is a good call for winter.

The 15/50 is going to run through the engine easier, getting to all the parts needing lubrication better.
Click to expand...

A couple of points I can offer after lots of years in Alaska.

Here's an old AD for the whistle slot. Most guys add the hole a few inches up from the open end of the breather tube and also cut a small slit in the rubber hose up above. The slit in the hose will open if there's pressure but otherwise stays closed so no mess drools out. The AD is for 170/172s but it's standard practice on all airplanes that operate in the cold. http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...89D2E182A363570F862569B9004D3EDE?OpenDocument

If you believe your battery needs to be warmed you might ought to lose the old flooded battery in favor of an AGM type. I've used a small Odyssey jet ski battery to start my 0-520 for 15 years and the battery has never been warmed and never needed charging including after all-winter storage. AGM batteries keep full charge for two years of inactivity in average temps so you can lose the battery maintainer, too. http://www.odysseybatteries.com/docs/US-ODY-TM-001_0411_000.pdf

:wink2:
 

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Stewartb said:
.......
If you believe your battery needs to be warmed you might ought to lose the old flooded battery in favor of an AGM type. I've used a small Odyssey jet ski battery to start my 0-520 for 15 years and the battery has never been warmed and never needed charging including after all-winter storage. AGM batteries keep full charge for two years of inactivity in average temps so you can lose the battery maintainer, too. http://www.odysseybatteries.com/docs/US-ODY-TM-001_0411_000.pdf

:wink2:
Click to expand...

Is the Odyssey battery legal to install in certified aircraft?:dunno:..:confused:
 
AC43.13-2B chapter 10 discusses standard practices for installing and/or relocating aircraft batteries including lead-adid and nicad types. AGM batteries are lead-acid batteries but use Absorbed Glass Mat design as opposed to flooded cells. Here's an important excerpt from page 108 of the AC.

1004. AIRCRAFT STORAGE BATTERY DESIGN AND INSTALLATION.
a. Lead Acid.
(1) Each aircraft storage battery, whether approved to a Technical Standards Order (TSO) or not, must be designed as required by regulation and installed as prescribed by the manufacturer.
Click to expand...

And for the nay-sayers out there who will argue the AC doesn't allow you to modify the battery or location, here's a quote of the opening paragraph of the document. The AC also talks about ski installations, shoulder harnesses, avionics, etc.

1. PURPOSE. This advisory circular (AC) contains methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator for the inspection and alteration on non-pressurized areas of civil aircraft of 12,500 lbs gross weight or less. This AC is for use by mechanics, repair stations, and other certificated entities. This data generally pertains to minor alterations; however, the alteration data herein may be used as approved data for major alterations when the AC chapter, page, and paragraph are listed in block 8 of FAA Form 337 when the user has determined that it is:
a. Appropriate to the product being altered,
b. Directly applicable to the alteration being made, and
c. Not contrary to manufacturer’s data.
Click to expand...

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC 43.13-2B.pdf
 
Stewartb said:
AC43.13-2B chapter 10 discusses standard practices for installing and/or relocating aircraft batteries including lead-adid and nicad types. AGM batteries are lead-acid batteries but use Absorbed Glass Mat design as opposed to flooded cells. Here's an important excerpt from page 108 of the AC.



And for the nay-sayers out there who will argue the AC doesn't allow you to modify the battery or location, here's a quote of the opening paragraph of the document. The AC also talks about ski installations, shoulder harnesses, avionics, etc.



http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC 43.13-2B.pdf
Click to expand...


I don't see where what you quoted indicates you can use whatever battery you please, nor that you can make those minor alterations without approval. Not that I care or am against it, personally I'm fine with it, but I don't see where what you quoted designates it as 'legal' to do.
 
Not everyone will interpret all documents the same way. I'm okay with that. The FAA provides us with much more flexibility than many aircraft owners are aware of. If you prefer to ask permission for approved maintenance practices that are documented? Go for it. Or perhaps you may want to use the Odyssey SBS-J battery which is PMA'd. I've used both. I like the PC625 better.
 
Stewartb said:
Not everyone will interpret all documents the same way. I'm okay with that. The FAA provides us with much more flexibility than many aircraft owners are aware of. If you prefer to ask permission for approved maintenance practices that are documented? Go for it. Or perhaps you may want to use the Odyssey SBS-J battery which is PMA'd. I've used both. I like the PC625 better.
Click to expand...

I understand all that, like I said, I have no issue with the product or application whatsoever, however others may have a more difficult time getting it past an IA at annual time.
 
Stewartb said:
And for the nay-sayers out there who will argue the AC doesn't allow you to modify the battery or location, here's a quote of the opening paragraph of the document. The AC also talks about ski installations, shoulder harnesses, avionics, etc.
Click to expand...

Well, heres a quote from the FARs,

21.9 Replacement and modification articles.
(a) If a person knows, or should know, that a replacement or modification article is reasonably likely to be installed on a type-certificated product, the person may not produce that article unless it is—

(1) Produced under a type certificate;

(2) Produced under an FAA production approval;

(3) A standard part (such as a nut or bolt) manufactured in compliance with a government or established industry specification;

(4) A commercial part as defined in §21.1 of this part;

(5) Produced by an owner or operator for maintaining or altering that owner or operator's product; or

(6) Fabricated by an appropriately rated certificate holder with a quality system, and consumed in the repair or alteration of a product or article in accordance with part 43 of this chapter.

(b) Except as provided in paragraphs (a)(1) through (a)(2) of this section, a person who produces a replacement or modification article for sale may not represent that part as suitable for installation on a type-certificated product.

(c) Except as provided in paragraphs (a)(1) through (a)(2) of this section, a person may not sell or represent an article as suitable for installation on an aircraft type-certificated under §§21.25(a)(2) or 21.27 unless that article—

(1) Was declared surplus by the U.S. Armed Forces, and

(2) Was intended for use on that aircraft model by the U.S. Armed Forces.

The AC 43,13 can not be used when the aircraft is supported by manufacturers manuals.

Plus FAR 43-A (a)
(xii) Changes to the basic design of the fuel, oil, cooling, heating, cabin pressurization, electrical, hydraulic, de-icing, or exhaust systems.

If you believe changing the type of battery used isn't a major change to the production certificate, explain why all the Jell Cell batteries come with a STC to install them.
 
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iHenning,

Fair enough. Not to argue because I respect your comments, but here's more back-up for my position.

From the FAA:

7. ADMINISTRATIVE PROCESSING. Form 337 will be executed in duplicate with one signed copy given to the aircraft owner and one copy forwarded to the FAA within 48 hours after the airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance is installed on an aircraft and approved for return to service. FAA processing of the forms and their supporting data will depend on whether approved or unapproved data is used.

a. Approved Data. Complete the form as instructed in this AC, excluding item 3, and ensure that items 6 and 7 have been properly executed. Give a copy of the form to the aircraft owner/operator and send a duplicate copy to the FAA Aircraft Registration Branch within
48 hours after the airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance is installed on an aircraft and approved for return to service.

b. Unapproved Data. Complete the form as instructed in this AC, leaving items 6 and 7 blank. Both copies of the form and any supplemental data will be sent to the local FAA district office. When the FAA determines that the major repair or major alteration data complies with regulations and conforms to accepted industry practices, data approval will be recorded by entering an appropriate statement in item 3. Both forms and any supplemental data will be returned to the applicant who will then complete items 6 and 7. The applicant will give one of the completed forms to the aircraft owner/operator and submit the other completed form to the FAA Aircraft Registration Branch for inclusion in the aircraft records.
Click to expand...

That quote can be found on page 6 of the linked AC regarding 337 forms.

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...310b1c8686257272006dff36/$FILE/AC 43.9-1F.pdf
 
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Tom-D said:
Well, heres a quote from the FARs,

21.9 Replacement and modification articles.
(a) If a person knows, or should know, that a replacement or modification article is reasonably likely to be installed on a type-certificated product, the person may not produce that article unless it is—

(1) Produced under a type certificate;

(2) Produced under an FAA production approval;

(3) A standard part (such as a nut or bolt) manufactured in compliance with a government or established industry specification;

(4) A commercial part as defined in §21.1 of this part;

(5) Produced by an owner or operator for maintaining or altering that owner or operator's product; or

(6) Fabricated by an appropriately rated certificate holder with a quality system, and consumed in the repair or alteration of a product or article in accordance with part 43 of this chapter.

(b) Except as provided in paragraphs (a)(1) through (a)(2) of this section, a person who produces a replacement or modification article for sale may not represent that part as suitable for installation on a type-certificated product.

(c) Except as provided in paragraphs (a)(1) through (a)(2) of this section, a person may not sell or represent an article as suitable for installation on an aircraft type-certificated under §§21.25(a)(2) or 21.27 unless that article—

(1) Was declared surplus by the U.S. Armed Forces, and

(2) Was intended for use on that aircraft model by the U.S. Armed Forces.

The AC 43,13 can not be used when the aircraft is supported by manufacturers manuals.

Plus FAR 43-A (a)
(xii) Changes to the basic design of the fuel, oil, cooling, heating, cabin pressurization, electrical, hydraulic, de-icing, or exhaust systems.

If you believe changing the type of battery used isn't a major change to the production certificate, explain why all the Jell Cell batteries come with a STC to install them.
Click to expand...


A would say a battery arguably falls under 21.9 (a)(3)
 
Tom-D said:
When you leave blocks 6&7 blank what are you asking for?
Click to expand...

That only applies when using UNAPPROVED data, as is clearly stated in the document. Once the data has been reviewed and accepted...
c. Signatures of Form 337.

(1) An FAA inspector’s signature in item 3 indicates approval of the data described in that section for use in accomplishing the work described in item 8 of the form. The statement of completeness in item 3 by an appropriately rated designee is a “certification of completeness” of required data. It is not a field approval or approval of data.
NOTE: Signatures in item 3 count as data approval or completeness of approved data only and do not indicate the approval for return to service for the work in item 8.

(2) A signature in item 6 is a certification by the person performing the work that the work complies with all applicable airworthiness requirements and FAA-approved data. The certification is only applicable to the work described in item 8 or attached sheets.

(3) A signature in item 7 by an FAA Flight Standards Inspector or Designee constitutes an authorized return to service. A signature is not an approval of data. Data approval procedures are performed in item 3 by an authorized individual and further defined in Order 8300.10 and AC 43-210. Other persons listed in item 7 are authorized to “approve for return to service” if the major repair or major alteration uses and conforms to FAA-approved data and is performed in compliance with part 43.

(4) If engineering assistance was requested, written Aircraft Certification Office concurrence (e.g., memo or e-mail) becomes an attachment to Form 337.
Click to expand...


More info from the CFRs-
§43.9 Content, form, and disposition of maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, and alteration records (except inspections performed in accordance with part 91, part 125, §135.411(a)(1), and §135.419 of this chapter).
(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, each person who maintains, performs preventive maintenance, rebuilds, or alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment containing the following information:

(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of work performed.

(2) The date of completion of the work performed.

(3) The name of the person performing the work if other than the person specified in paragraph (a)(4) of this section.

(4) If the work performed on the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part has been performed satisfactorily, the signature, certificate number, and kind of certificate held by the person approving the work. The signature constitutes the approval for return to service only for the work performed.
Click to expand...
 
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Henning said:
A would say a battery arguably falls under 21.9 (a)(3)
Click to expand...
You would be wrong, other wise why would the aircraft battery manufacturers spend the money to gain STC authority?

When you use an off the shelf tractor battery how would you prove you meet the owner produced part, when you had nothing to do with its production?

When you use a new era battery in place of a wet cell lead acid battery, you have made a major alteration to the production certificate the aircraft was produced under. Plus as an A&P how would you comply with FAR 43,13 ? How will you prove the tractor battery complies with any thing the administrator has approved?
 
Stewartb said:
That only applies when using UNAPPROVED data, as is clearly stated in the document. Once the data has been reviewed and accepted...
Click to expand...

I believe you need remedial training on the use of the 337 form.
the only time you would submit a 337 with out blocks 6&7 signed is when you are requesting a field approval. because the work has not been completed by any one who would normally sign those blocks.

you would be requesting a field approval hoping the ASI would sign the block 3. Giving you approval to make the alteration you requested in block #8
 
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They need an STC to establish applicability and a PMA to authorize them to produce and sell an aircraft part for installation by others. Those are production manufacturing issues. They have nothing to do with the information in the AC.

I posted the appropriate chapter and verse regarding 337s. I can provide the info but interpreting it is up to the reader.
 
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Stewartb said:
I posted the appropriate chapter and verse regarding 337s. I can provide the info but interpreting it is up to the reader.
Click to expand...

and the ASI approving the 337. Which they will not when the aircraft has maintenance manuals.
 
Tom-D said:
You would be wrong, other wise why would the aircraft battery manufacturers spend the money to gain STC authority?

When you use an off the shelf tractor battery how would you prove you meet the owner produced part, when you had nothing to do with its production?

When you use a new era battery in place of a wet cell lead acid battery, you have made a major alteration to the production certificate the aircraft was produced under. Plus as an A&P how would you comply with FAR 43,13 ? How will you prove the tractor battery complies with any thing the administrator has approved?
Click to expand...

They meet an industry standard, they all do, it doesn't say FAA Approved/PMA/TSO or anything like that. I would assume that the rules are different if you operate 135.
 
gitmo234 said:
Interesting....it's time to change my oil as it's now frigid and I had been using aeroshell 100w in my Continental O-300.

Someone (I believe Ron) commented that if I switched I'd see less oil burn. What oils do you recommend? There's a lot more available since the recommended oils were published in 1956.

Do I need to do a full oil change or can I just add in the new oil?

I have yet to do an oil change on her so I'm interested in learning how it goed
Click to expand...

This was my first oil change. I changed oil and filter and did the oil sample as well. I talked with the previous owner recently and he too used w100 year round. He said when it was too cold he wasn't flying anyway. So a few weekends ago we had a good cold snap for Mississippi. Down in the 20's for lows. It was probably 35 when I went and flew that morning and no problems starting it up. I have since built a pre heater for those types of mornings and haven't had to use it yet.

I would change oil and filter. Cut your filter open and inspect it as well. I will do that every time.
 
Henning said:
They meet an industry standard, they all do, it doesn't say FAA Approved/PMA/TSO or anything like that. I would assume that the rules are different if you operate 135.
Click to expand...

Proving a product not intended to be used in Aviation meets the aviation standard is an unsurmountable task.

Just think how long it has taken Whelen to prove their LED landing lights are a drop in replacement for the GE incandescent bulbs. the money it required is now reflected in the price of the new LED light.

Trying to do that with a tractor battery off the shelf at Central Tractor Inc. would get stonewalled from Day one.

Using the Unapproved battery would be like substituting a AN standard bolt with a ACE hardware stove bolt. they do not meet the standard for production certified aircraft.
 
Tom-D said:
Proving a product not intended to be used in Aviation meets the aviation standard is an unsurmountable task.

Just think how long it has taken Whelen to prove their LED landing lights are a drop in replacement for the GE incandescent bulbs. the money it required is now reflected in the price of the new LED light.

Trying to do that with a tractor battery off the shelf at Central Tractor Inc. would get stonewalled from Day one.

Using the Unapproved battery would be like substituting a AN standard bolt with a ACE hardware stove bolt. they do not meet the standard for production certified aircraft.
Click to expand...


Perfect example of the task at hand....:yes:
 
N801BH said:
Perfect example of the task at hand....:yes:
Click to expand...

Exactly. !
There are those who can not comprehend the meaning of.

21.1 Applicability and definitions.
(a) This part prescribes—

(1) Procedural requirements for issuing and changing—

(i) Design approvals;

(ii) Production approvals;

(iii) Airworthiness certificates; and

(iv) Airworthiness approvals;

(2) Rules governing applicants for, and holders of, any approval or certificate specified in paragraph (a)(1) of this section; and

(3) Procedural requirements for the approval of articles.

(b) For the purposes of this part—

(1) Airworthiness approval means a document issued by the FAA for an aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, or article which certifies that the aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, or article conforms to its approved design and is in a condition for safe operation;

(2) Article means a material, part, component, process, or appliance;

(3) Commercial part means an article that is listed on an FAA-approved Commercial Parts List included in a design approval holder's Instructions for Continued Airworthiness required by §21.50;

(4) Design approval means a type certificate (including amended and supplemental type certificates) or the approved design under a PMA, TSO authorization, letter of TSO design approval, or other approved design;

(5) Product means an aircraft, aircraft engine, or propeller;

(6) Production approval means a document issued by the FAA to a person that allows the production of a product or article in accordance with its approved design and approved quality system, and can take the form of a production certificate, a PMA, or a TSO authorization;

end quote

IOWs when you use uncertified parts such as a tractor batteries, (no matter how well it works) it changes the type design. To do that, you need an approval of some sort, and the AC 43,13 does not contain that type of data. even if you owned an antique that has no supporting manuals.
 
Tom-D said:
Proving a product not intended to be used in Aviation meets the aviation standard is an unsurmountable task.

Just think how long it has taken Whelen to prove their LED landing lights are a drop in replacement for the GE incandescent bulbs. the money it required is now reflected in the price of the new LED light.

Trying to do that with a tractor battery off the shelf at Central Tractor Inc. would get stonewalled from Day one.

Using the Unapproved battery would be like substituting a AN standard bolt with a ACE hardware stove bolt. they do not meet the standard for production certified aircraft.
Click to expand...

(3) A standard part (such as a nut or bolt) manufactured in compliance with a government or established industry specification;

Where is "Aviation Specification" listed in that? Batteries are all built to established industry standards, and are easier to make and less safety critical than nuts and bolts.
 
And like I said earlier, if you're uncomfortable using a watercraft battery? Use the Odyssey SBS-J battery that's PMA approved. That's the battery that outfits like Atlee Dodge and Burl's Aircraft use for their STC approved battery boxes in Cubs and Cessnas. The Odyssey PC680 is the same battery as the SBS-J with a different sticker on the case. They work great but my PC625 has more staying power. Fewer surge amps but more duration. I don't give a hoot if guys use them or don't. My initial comment was in response to the idea that float pilots remove batteries to warm them. Not true. Not even ski pilots do that. Not any more, anyway. And by the way, Odyssey and similar AGM batteries are fast becoming obsolete in the wake of lithium batteries. The E-AB Cub crowd is using dinky little lightweight batteries that crank like no tomorrow, weigh nothing, and have no temperature issues (Google Earth-X batteries). Sadly AC43.13 doesn't allow lithium batteries. Just lead-acid and ni-cad.

Old dogs, new tricks. If you look closely at my firewall pic you'll see an experimental B&C alternator and LR-14 regulator. My FAA guy thought it was a great idea to put it in there to compliment my little jet ski battery. And yes, the alternator/regulator are field approved. My electric system works better than it ever did before I incorporated modern equipment.
 
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Henning said:
(3) A standard part (such as a nut or bolt) manufactured in compliance with a government or established industry specification;

Where is "Aviation Specification" listed in that? Batteries are all built to established industry standards, and are easier to make and less safety critical than nuts and bolts.
Click to expand...

It's called a Mil-spec, look it up. AN, MS, NAS. see 43,13
 
Tom-D said:
It's called a Mil-spec, look it up. AN, MS, NAS. see 43,13
Click to expand...

Mil Spec is not necessary, although fine. When they mean Mil-Spec, they say Mil Spec. There are other industrial specs they respect like ATSM.
 
What the heck. Some guys seek the light, some remain in the dark. Hopefully a few guys that read this see that the rules permit them to make some popular changes, not prohibit them as some tend to believe.

For your consideration....

A quote from AC43.13-2B chapter 10
1004. AIRCRAFT STORAGE BATTERY DESIGN AND INSTALLATION.
a. Lead Acid.
(1) Each aircraft storage battery, whether approved to a Technical Standards Order (TSO) or not, must be designed as required by regulation and installed as prescribed by the manufacturer.
Click to expand...

Here's a link to CFR 23.1353, the regulation regarding aircraft battery design and installation.
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2002-title14-vol1/pdf/CFR-2002-title14-vol1-sec23-1353.pdf
 
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Stewartb said:
A quote from AC43.13-2B chapter 10

When the manufacturer gain certification publishes manuals to support the maintenance, and Illustrated parts catalogs for parts replacement, you can for get using the 43,13 as approved data for making any modifications on that make and model.


Here's a link to CFR 23.1353, the regulation regarding aircraft battery design and installation.
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2002-title14-vol1/pdf/CFR-2002-title14-vol1-sec23-1353.pdf
Click to expand...

That's a very good reference for the manufacturer to gain certification for production.
 
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