Are there any MECHANICS left

[Dean]

or is everyone a technician? I have a 2000 Lincoln LS V8 and it has a random miss fire in it. I have had it to two shops and the TECHNICIANS can't find the problem. They tell me without the computer showing an error code, they don't know what to do. I have had them drive it and they say Yep, its missing, but I don't know why. Bring it back if the engine light comes on and I can tell you then. In the old days you would figure it out on your own and fix it.

 

[Shipoke]

Dean How many miles are on your car.Random Missfire can be hard to find. could be Plugs,wires, injectors, or even something as simple as a bad connection on the injectors. And yes the invent of the computerized cars did screw the backyard mechanic from fixing their own car. FWIW plugs and wires wont set a code, so if you have over about 35K on the car i'd change plugs. Hope this helps.

Dave G
Certified GM Tech and Backyard Mechanic

 

[Dean]

Dean How many miles are on your car.Random Missfire can be hard to find. could be Plugs,wires, injectors, or even something as simple as a bad connection on the injectors. And yes the invent of the computerized cars did screw the backyard mechanic from fixing their own car. FWIW plugs and wires wont set a code, so if you have over about 35K on the car i'd change plugs. Hope this helps.

Dave G
Certified GM Tech and Backyard Mechanic

I bought the car a little over a year ago with 68K on it, it has 77K on it now. I have an appointment to have the injectors cleaned and new plugs and wires. I was also told to have a new cap put on at the same time.

 

[kevin47881]

Dean, does the misfire happen at any certain time...accelerating, raining, going up hill, less than 1/4 tank of fuel, etc.?
The reason for asking is that it may offer us a chance to eliminate some items.

 

[rmciottijr]

Dean,

I just went through this with my 2000 Jimmy with 98K. After spending a crap load of money I gave in and gave it to the dealer. $1600 dollars later they found I had clogged injectors, one they could not clean so they needed to replace it (they had to remove them to clean them). Well after that it ran fine until that little yellow light came on again. So I sent it back in and they found a bad O2 sensor they replaced it free of charge. so far so good and I have 140K on her now. Hope this helps.

Bob

 

[Henning]

or is everyone a technician? I have a 2000 Lincoln LS V8 and it has a random miss fire in it. I have had it to two shops and the TECHNICIANS can't find the problem. They tell me without the computer showing an error code, they don't know what to do. I have had them drive it and they say Yep, its missing, but I don't know why. Bring it back if the engine light comes on and I can tell you then. In the old days you would figure it out on your own and fix it.

Intermittent, I would be looking at the cap if it has a distributor and look for carbon tracks. I'd also be looking at plug wires and plugs.

 

[rmciottijr]

Intermittent, I would be looking at the cap if it has a distributor and look for carbon tracks. I'd also be looking at plug wires and plugs.

Good cheap place to start and I did the same with no luck. yes Henning is correct start with that Plugs wires cap and rotor plus it can't hurt.

 

[JRitt]

I bought the car a little over a year ago with 68K on it, it has 77K on it now. I have an appointment to have the injectors cleaned and new plugs and wires. I was also told to have a new cap put on at the same time.

Odds are that will fix your problem

 

[Don Jones]

Well, there are a few of us left. First, though wires are a common problem in
these engines, so is a dirty airflow sensor. Wires will almost always set a code for cylinder #x misfire and turn on the light. a dirty airflow sensor rarely sets a code, unless it is so dirty the mixture control system can't get the mixture right and it will set a lean code. It does not have a distributor, only coils(2). Each coil has 4 plug wires on it, unless it is the newer system with the coil mounted on top of each spark plug, don't remember where the year model break is. Bottom line these things are waaaay to complicated to start throwing parts at. Plug wires are NOT cheap for these either. You really need to find someone willing to take the time to diagnose it, that is NOT the dealer.
With a little more info I might be able to help figure it out. Wish I could get my hands on it, then no problemo.
Oh by the way, I have never had cleaning the injectors fix a car in my shop in the last 15 years.

 

[Dean]

The miss fire happens when going up a grade and during hard acceleration. Once the tach hits 5000 rpm it runs strong to redline. I have noticed that with a full tank of gas, it doesn't happen as often. I am leaning towards the bad sparkplug wires myself.

 

[SCCutler]

The car has no distributor. Your LS has Ford's infamous coil-on-plug setup, and there are eight of 'em- one for each plug. They often will misfire and cause intermittent rough running, sudden jerkiness (sometimes such that you think that the transmission is packing up)- and yet, they don't throw a diagnostic code. Minor misfires confuse the engine control computer.

IF you take it to your Lincoln dealer, they'll ding you for something like $300.00 per; you can buy a complete set of them, new, for something like $25.00 each, if you shop carefully. Check ebay.


I would not have believed this problem if I had not experienced diagnosing it myself, on a friend's Expedition- we thought that thing was gonna tear the engine off of the mounts when it happened, but it was intermittent and the only way to Ford dealer was able to diagnose it was by hooking a real-time computer up, and watching for an indication when it finally decided to flake out.

Guy as much as admitted that replacing all of the coil-on-plugs was the best answer, but that at the prices that they had to charge, it
was outrageous.

I have a client whose LS has had nine (9) of 'em replaced since the car was new.

The coil-on-plug is a great idea, but Ford's implementation is not good.

---

Edit-

THis may be something to look at- I don't know. http://www.sherco-auto.com/coiltune.htm

 

[Don Jones]

I would not have believed this problem if I had not experienced diagnosing it myself, on a friend's Expedition- we thought that thing was gonna tear the engine off of the mounts when it happened, but it was intermittent and the only way to Ford dealer was able to diagnose it was by hooking a real-time computer up, and watching for an indication when it finally decided to flake out.



The coil-on-plug is a great idea, but Ford's implementation is not good.

This is part of the problem with mechanics today. It is a huge investment for the shop to have all the equipment. The machine of which Spike speaks cost me $28,000 bucks. I also have the same scan tool for the computer system the dealer has, one for Ford, one for GM, and one for Chrysler, at about 5 grand each. I built an adapter for my portable o-scope to check the coils on the coil on plug setup. It is faster and easier to use, and almost always locates the bad coil even if it is not acting up right then. A bad coil will not have the same pattern on the scope that a good one does.
The kit Spike posted only contains the plug boots and the springs which send the spark energy from the coil to the plug. If the boots are bad(could be) it would fix it.

Most dealership "technicians" are too busy trying to make a paycheck to spend the time to diagnose anything. They are the worst at "shotgun diagnosis" I have ever seen. I hired several dealership technicians over the years and when something like this came in the shop, they just want to put everything on it and see if it fixes it. None of them lasted long working for me.

 

[Dean]

Any way to know which coil is bad or is it a replace one at a time until you fix the problem?

 

[CJones]

Argh! I hate how some people call themselves "mechanics" these days, when all they are is a "plug-and-pray" technician for cars instead of computers!

My truck died while going down the road a couple of years ago. I got out and checked the distributor b/c it had been working itself loose and messing up the timing randomly. I could turn the distributor and get it to run, but it still didn't have enough power to run. I called the 'mechanic' I had found in town that I *thought* was worthy and told him to tow it in and I think there is something wrong with the timing - either timing chain, distributor broke, etc. Two days later, I call to check in -- "Well, when was the last time you put new plugs in?" "This summer." "Well, they are really sooted over." "I was messing with the distributor to get it to run, it probably was having mixture problems when I was screwing with it. Don't mess with the plugs." "Ohh. And your O2 sensor is sooted over, too." "Didn't you just hear me? I was messing the the timing which probably caused bad mixture." Two days later. "Well, we still can't figure out what's wrong. Our COMPUTERS CAN'T FIND A CODE, we're going to take it down to the dealer and put it on their computer." "Yeah, I think it's something with the timing, either it has jumped time, or the distributor is broke or something like that." "Ok, well, we'll take it to the dealer and see what they say. By the way, when was the last time you replaced your serpentine belt?" "Uhh, YOU replaced it last fall when YOU replaced the ignition module." "OK." Next day. "Hey, guess what? We figured out what your problem was - the distributor broke!" "Really, I would have never guessed. I'll be in tomorrow to pick it up."

Get the bill for a grand total of $700!!!! They 1.) Replaced plugs. 2.) Replaced O2 sensor. 3.) Replaced serpentine belt. 4.) THEN finally replaced distributor (~$50 I think). I friggin EXPLODED. I didn't use language that I shouldn't have, but I chewed ass well enough that my grandad would have been proud.

Since then, I have made it a point to tell anyone that asks DO NOT TAKE YOUR CAR TO TRICKLE'S AUTO IN AMES, IOWA!

/end rant.

 

[Don Jones]

Any way to know which coil is bad or is it a replace one at a time until you fix the problem?

Well, if it is a bad coil, you could buy one new one and keep switching, real pain in the butt. Look at the airflow sensor first, it is easy. It is the small black box located in the air duct into the engine. Un-plug the wire harness from it, and remove the 3 torx headed screws. You will need a tamper proof torx driver set for this. Gently remove the sensor and look at the two really small sensors which are suspended between two metal posts. Take a q-tip and isopropyl alcohol and very gently swab them clean. They should be silver in color, if they are black they are dirty and will cause it to run like crap.
The dealer won't clean these things, to them they are replace only, but we have cleaned literally thousands of them with no problems. It is a really common problem and causes the symptoms you describe.
If it is a coil problem, without the proper equipment it is either replace them all or install 1 new one, recheck for problem, take the old one removed and replace another one with it, and so on, which is a long hand burning process. Or you can drive it to NM and I will handle it

 

[rmciottijr]

Oh by the way, I have never had cleaning the injectors fix a car in my shop in the last 15 years.

Well, I witnessed it myself one injector had zero flow others had low flow. After replacing the no flow injector and cleaning the others the car ran great. I am not saying that's the problem just telling my personal experience.

Replacing Cap, rotor, wires and plugs will not cost all them much. Not saying it will fix the problem but it is a place to start before you go to a mechanic. Like Don said some cars do not have Cap, rotor, wires and they will cost some $$$.

The O2 sensor went bad because of a corroded connector. If you Goggle GM Random misfire you will find a lot of people having the same problem.
Bob

 

[Bill]

unless it is the newer system with the coil mounted on top of each spark plug, don't remember where the year model break is.

If it does have coil over plug, Ford's coil units from that era are not known to be the most robust. I carry a spare in my F-150 just in case.

 

[SCCutler]

Bill, it does have the coil-on-plug, and "not... the most robust" is the most charitable description I have ever heard for those finicky, failure-prone chunks of stuff (the coil-on-plug unit, not the whole car).

Biggest issue is that, not only do they fail often, they fail soft (not dead, just flaky), and do not give the ECC a code which is useful in diagnosis.

 

[Darrell111]

or is everyone a technician? I have a 2000 Lincoln LS V8 and it has a random miss fire in it. I have had it to two shops and the TECHNICIANS can't find the problem. They tell me without the computer showing an error code, they don't know what to do. I have had them drive it and they say Yep, its missing, but I don't know why. Bring it back if the engine light comes on and I can tell you then. In the old days you would figure it out on your own and fix it.

Dean, i had that same problem with my 2000 lincoln ls (which i sold)..

It is your ignition coils.. and this is a BIG problem with the early LS's. It is well known and problem is it will continue to happen again, though i dont know if they made a better after market coil for it. Here are some sites that address the issue.

BTW, i dont know if anyone else said this, i only read the first post

http://www.carsurvey.org/viewmorecomments_review_38004_5.html

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/LongTerm/articleId=44682
A snippet from this site

Maintenance & Reliability
Maintenance intervals for our LS were rather closely spaced, as it required service every 5,000 miles, even on the normal-duty schedule. On the plus side, it costs less to service a Lincoln at the dealership than it would a German car. Additionally, starting in the 2001 model year, Lincoln began offering complimentary regular maintenance for the first 3 years or 36,000 miles. It would be a nice gesture if the company extended this plan over the duration of the 4-year/50,000-mile basic warranty, though.

Our long-termer spent 37 days out of service — 20 of these days were taken up by the AdvanceTrac warning light problem that the technicians at Peyton Cramer Ford apparently found difficult to diagnose, and 16 more were consumed by automatic transmission troubleshooting and replacement in June 2000. Aside from the transmission, serious repairs included the replacement of a faulty ignition coil that was causing the LS to stall at traffic lights and the replacement of a throttle cable assembly that suddenly came apart (when the gas pedal was pressed), leaving the LS dead in traffic. Although our Lincoln's status as "first year of an entirely new model" partly accounts for the problems we had with it, one doesn't expect such complications from a modern-day luxury car.

And yet one more

http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/Reliability.aspx?year=2001&make=Lincoln&model=LS

Hope this helps. Shouldnt be too much to fix.. I hope ha.

Edit : I really should have read the responses. Gosh im just repeating what everyone already said!!

 

[Dean]

Well, if it is a bad coil, you could buy one new one and keep switching, real pain in the butt. Look at the airflow sensor first, it is easy. It is the small black box located in the air duct into the engine. Un-plug the wire harness from it, and remove the 3 torx headed screws. You will need a tamper proof torx driver set for this. Gently remove the sensor and look at the two really small sensors which are suspended between two metal posts. Take a q-tip and isopropyl alcohol and very gently swab them clean. They should be silver in color, if they are black they are dirty and will cause it to run like crap.
The dealer won't clean these things, to them they are replace only, but we have cleaned literally thousands of them with no problems. It is a really common problem and causes the symptoms you describe.
If it is a coil problem, without the proper equipment it is either replace them all or install 1 new one, recheck for problem, take the old one removed and replace another one with it, and so on, which is a long hand burning process. Or you can drive it to NM and I will handle it

You be da man, I cleaned the MAF sensors with a can of tuner cleaner from Radio shack and it runs like it use too, the beast is back!

 

[SCCutler]

You be da man, I cleaned the MAF sensors with a can of tuner cleaner from Radio shack and it runs like it use too, the beast is back!

Most Very Excellent!

As a follow-up to prior comments on coil-on-plug units, I have learned further that most faults related to these can actually be traced to worn or damaged bots and arcing which results, and these are available independently.

For future reference.

 

[Don Jones]

You be da man, I cleaned the MAF sensors with a can of tuner cleaner from Radio shack and it runs like it use too, the beast is back!

Now all I need is an address to send the bill
Seriously, glad I could help, how crusty was it. I have seen some that were built up with crud making them twice their size.

 

[Dean]

Now all I need is an address to send the bill
Seriously, glad I could help, how crusty was it. I have seen some that were built up with crud making them twice their size.

They were about twice the size they should have been. I have the K&N cold air induction system on it and the cone shaped filter is about 2-3" from the MAF, I think some of the air filter oil was part of the problem.

 

[Dean]

Most Very Excellent!

As a follow-up to prior comments on coil-on-plug units, I have learned further that most faults related to these can actually be traced to worn or damaged bots and arcing which results, and these are available independently.

For future reference.

I was told that normally these fail from oil or water pooling up around them.

 

[Don Jones]

They were about twice the size they should have been. I have the K&N cold air induction system on it and the cone shaped filter is about 2-3" from the MAF, I think some of the air filter oil was part of the problem.

You are absolutely correct, the K&N air filter will make this problem way worse than one with a paper filter. Given that fact alone, I would lose the K&N. Either that or get used to cleaning the MAF periodically.