Are PC Flight Simulators a great way to get teens and young adults into aviation?

N918KT

N918KT

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I first got started in aviation growing up by playing a mix of PC combat and civilian flight simulators, including Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004.


If you read a thread that I posted in Hangar Talk yesterday, you would know that I took over my college's American Association of Airport Executives (AAAE, aviation club) as acting president recently. One of the possible activities I had planned is to install PC Flight Simulators in one of the computer labs on campus and let members fly in the simulators as a great way to introduce young adults into aviation. I want to get the members the same experience I had when I was younger. What do you think of my idea? Is it a great way to introduce the members to aviation?

Here's the link to my other thread about the AAAE.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56838
 
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Yes and no. For most of the younger kids, the MSFS & XPlane are video games and that's all. The local aviation museum has both an installed demo area as well as a mobile set up they take to events all over the state.

In the EAA Young Eagles program the published "conversion rate" of kids taking YE flights then going on to take flying lessons is dismal. What I've found in my YE flights is that a number of the kids do play MSFS or XPlane, really like the actual airplane flight, but don't have much interest in taking lessons.

Part of this is the wide variety of activities available to the kids and some that are encouraged/mandated/whatever by the parents.

I've yet to meet anyone interested in taking flying lessons that got interested because they used MSFS or XPlane. If the interest is there, the flight sim is often the only option due to $$$, time, location, etc. In the OP situation, I'm guessing that you had an interest in aviation first, which is why you found aviation sims to be an opportunity until you were able to take lessons.

I've yet to meet anyone who had no interest in aviation EXCEPT to play MSFS or XPlane and then got interested in actual flight. Conversely, I do know a number of people who use MSFS or XPlane as a supporting tool (and some who just like to play the games!) but after they learned to fly.

But then, my statistical sample is fairly small, limited to a few EAA chapters, state pilot associations, in other words, people who are already involved with flight.

Might be interesting to create a poll around here for this topic. Which came first?

1. Your interest in aviation
2. Your interest in aviation sims with no interest in actual flight
3. Actual flight then sims
4. No interest in sims at all
5. Other - please explain
 
As a kid I played flight sims BECAUSE I was in love with aviation. I don't think playing a sim will generate flight interest.
 
As a kid I devoured books about airplanes, played Flight Simulator on the first on the Apple IIe, and later on the IBM compatible 486 running MS-DOS.

I remember understanding what DME was and wondering why anybody would use carburator heat, since it gave you less power. I also crashed into the Chicago skyline alot.
 
murphey said:
I've yet to meet anyone interested in taking flying lessons that got interested because they used MSFS or XPlane.
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I have. He's a member here so maybe he'll tell his story. His dad, who is not a pilot, told me that he bought his son an intro ride because of the son's interest in flight sim programs. Now the son is a licensed pilot.
 
wickedsprint said:
As a kid I played flight sims BECAUSE I was in love with aviation. I don't think playing a sim will generate flight interest.
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That was my initial thought....I started with SubLogic Flightsim 2.0 on an Apple II+, because i grew up around airplanes and wanted to fly myself. Back in those crude computer sim days, you really had to use a lot of imagination and if I hadn't had a lot of knowledge of aviation in general, I don't think I would have found it very interesting.

Today's sims on the other hand are very advanced and the graphics are amazing...much less left to the imagination. I can see how someone today might get interested in flying based on a sim. I don't think you will get a TON of converts, but it is a much cheaper way of introducing them.
 
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Student getting out of his first flight (totally unimpressed):

"Flight Simulator is a lot more exciting and fun."
 
Good lord no. Flying an accurate representation of a C-172 on a proper no rules broken flight on a computer is one of the dullest things I can imagine. How that would inspire someone to go out and pay 200 bucks to try the real thing is beyond me.
 
For me, the interest in aviation DEFINITELY came first (heck, my interest was sparked before Bill Gates or Al Gore were even born!)

I first found "Flight Simulator" when it was a game ported to the Apple II machine. Microsoft acquired it many years later (like a significant portion of a decade, and was used by computer developers to establish veracity to the PC protocol [PC-DOS (aka CP/M) was all that ran "PC" machines then on the Intel 8088, 4.7 MHz without co-processor]. At that point in time, my checkride (and written and oral) were long in the past history.

When MS did port Flt Sim (remember v1.0 with the black and white screen and tachs that went to 6000 rpm?) they finally upgraded reality to something usable around version 3.1. After that, they only took an interest in improving scenery details at the expense of flight realism. The whole thing is a joke now and might give adverse impressions to those who have a passing interest in learning to fly.

:(
 
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Everskyward said:
I have. He's a member here so maybe he'll tell his story. His dad, who is not a pilot, told me that he bought his son an intro ride because of the son's interest in flight sim programs. Now the son is a licensed pilot.
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Mari is referring to me (AFAIK).

I had always played with plane toys as a small child kid but never even thought aviation was my passion, I never though I wanted to become a pilot. Then for my 11th birthday I got Microsoft Flight Simulator X. For the next three years my parents could not get me off of the simulator, I'd spend hours a day just flying. My dad... being fed up with me sitting on the computer all of the time offered to send me on a discovery flight... which, being nervous I declined at first. Later in the week I later agreed though.

So that weekend we went down to the Flying W airport (N14) and I took a discovery flight and fell in love. I started flight training that next week.

Obviously a huge part of this was parental support, but I do think without Microsoft Flight Simulator I would not have, and my parents would not have realized that aviation is my passion.

So yes... I would say Flight Simulator gets people involved with aviation.
 
I personally love simulators. I am currently a student pilot, but I would say simulators have kept my interest up over the years. I spend a good bit of hours flying X-Plane 10 and use/connect to PilotEdge.net . I feel I have learned a lot from the combination. I would say without a doubt, simulators would be a great way to get teens and young adults into aviation. If anything, it will give them an idea what to expect.
 
When I started there were no flight sims, there weren't even any PC's but I did have a Steve Canyon helmet when I was 6.
 
I love simulators, but I also already love and grew up with technology. Learning how to optimize my computer, setup multiple screens, configure USB Rudder Pedals, Yoke, FLight controls and build my own mini instrument panel with a 6 pack that can work in Flight Sim X and X-Plane was fun but its double fun because its what got me hooked on flying when the cost of flying was out of my reach. I could never afford it as a child, as a teen, my parents went through a crazy divorce and then I went out on my own and paid my own way and the only thing I had was my trusty computer and my favorite sim.

I learned ILS Approaches, VOR Navigation, HOw to plot and plan routes using VFR charts and how to read approach plates as well as using VATSIM I flew a virtual airline and integrated with people acting as real ATC.

Very enjoyable..

In a sim I can hit the pattern and try out things.. with a multi monitor setup and using my tablet as a GPS panel I can configure a close visual reference guide to fly outside the cockpit. Then, I can fly aircraft i'll never be able to afford.. A380, fun.. SR 71, awesome. X planes shooting into low orbit? sure.. attempt landing the space shuttle. Heck yeah!

For me its a double win.. I get to play with technology and fly! Would I still prefer to be out in the real deal? you betcha
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Mari is referring to me (AFAIK).

I had always played with plane toys as a small child kid but never even thought aviation was my passion, I never though I wanted to become a pilot. Then for my 11th birthday I got Microsoft Flight Simulator X. For the next three years my parents could not get me off of the simulator, I'd spend hours a day just flying. My dad... being fed up with me sitting on the computer all of the time offered to send me on a discovery flight... which, being nervous I declined at first. Later in the week I later agreed though.

So that weekend we went down to the Flying W airport (N14) and I took a discovery flight and fell in love. I started flight training that next week.

Obviously a huge part of this was parental support, but I do think without Microsoft Flight Simulator I would not have, and my parents would not have realized that aviation is my passion.

So yes... I would say Flight Simulator gets people involved with aviation.
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I had a similar start in aviation. It was Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004 (the last flight sim I had) that really had me addicted to flight sims in high school. I would usually play it on Fridays and weekends (sometimes I think I would sneak and play it during school week). Then when I went to Daniel Webster College's ACE Camp in August 2008 (after just one flight lesson over there), I really wanted to learn to fly. Sport Pilot lessons started the next year.
 
JasonM said:
I personally love simulators. I am currently a student pilot, but I would say simulators have kept my interest up over the years. I spend a good bit of hours flying X-Plane 10 and use/connect to PilotEdge.net . I feel I have learned a lot from the combination. I would say without a doubt, simulators would be a great way to get teens and young adults into aviation. If anything, it will give them an idea what to expect.
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I agree. I think it's an excellent idea!

I've been interested in aviation for as long as I can remember (4 years old). My father would bring us down to Newark Airport to watch the planes and I was in heaven.

Coming from a poor family, as a kid in the 70's, finding money for flight lessons was not going to happen. However, in 1982 as a young teen, I saved up enough money to buy my first computer, a Commodore-64. Followed by an Amiga-500, then an IBM compatible.

I soon discovered the world of flight simulation. Solo Flight, MSFS 3.0, Sublogic, and numerous combat sims. I was hooked for life:D. I think I've probably bought almost every Flightsim title released! :lol:

I rarely use them now due to family life, work and lack of time. I think the last one I've flown was DCS A-10C (awesome sim). Wish I had time to get into the DCS P-51 sim.

MSFS & X-Plane taught me a hell of a lot about aviation. More than I would have learned without them. Yes I love reading books and magazines but there's nothing like having a Yoke/stick, Rudder pedals & Throttle hooked up to a PC sim (other than the real thing).

In 1998 at the age of 32, I finally could afford to start flight lessons and passed my checkride the following year. Flightsims have played a very important part in my journey toward fulfilling my childhood dream of becoming a pilot!

I'll never forget taking off, landing and doing touch & go's at Meigs Field, flying around the Good Year blimp! Too bad I never got a chance to do that in real life:mad2:
 
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wickedsprint said:
As a kid I played flight sims BECAUSE I was in love with aviation. I don't think playing a sim will generate flight interest.
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That's probably a valid observation. But I'm pretty sure that if the interest already exists, access to a good PC sim might intensify that interest enough to translate the interest into action, especially if the experience included a brief presentation on how to proceed in that direction.
 
MSPAviator said:
As a kid I devoured books about airplanes, played Flight Simulator on the first on the Apple IIe, and later on the IBM compatible 486 running MS-DOS.

I remember understanding what DME was and wondering why anybody would use carburator heat, since it gave you less power. I also crashed into the Chicago skyline alot.
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Did you ever manage to fly between the antennas on the Hancock Tower? It took me several tries before I managed that. Another "game" my friends and I played was flying the biplane inverted through the hangar in the WWII context.
 
I started out around 6 when my dad got me FS99. I didn't know what I was doing but I liked flying in loops and slowly I began to find "real" sim flying more fun than goofing around. Landings came first then holding altitude followed by autopilot and VORs. A year ago I had the epiphany that I could actually do all this for real, and then I just bugged my parents for 6 months trying to convince them it is safe. So I would say all of my interest in aviation came from my love of simulators. Also, multiplayer is a great way to develop radio skills, since it is very similar to real world ATC.
 
gismo said:
Did you ever manage to fly between the antennas on the Hancock Tower? It took me several tries before I managed that. Another "game" my friends and I played was flying the biplane inverted through the hangar in the WWII context.
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:rofl: I think I gave up after a few tries.

I remember flying between the twin towers in NY! That was a popular thing in the early versions of MSFS. Kind of scary thought in retrospect :(
 
When my son was 11 or so I bought him a nice FSX set-up with CH Products controls - yoke, pedals, throttle quadrant. He never used it although, of course, he loves his favorite games. Sold it recently after having it sit in the closet for two years. Yet he is happy to go flying with me, he loved flying the CTLS, and I imagine he will want to be a pilot in the future.

Personally, I do not like much sims either but I loove to fly. I am not worried about him wanting to do more flying when he is older.

So, I don't think it matters much one way or the other, myself.
 
tinerj said:
Student getting out of his first flight (totally unimpressed):

"Flight Simulator is a lot more exciting and fun."
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Seanaldinho said:
*cough* bullsheet
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That is an exact quote of a student getting out of a plane on a young eagles day. And he was talking to a friend and giving his opinion.

I happen to disagree, too. But the student certainly meant what he said.

So flight simulator can be counter productive in enticing young people into true aviation.
 
tinerj said:
That is an exact quote of a student getting out of a plane on a young eagles day. And he was talking to a friend and giving his opinion.

I happen to disagree, too. But the student certainly meant what he said.

So flight simulator can be counter productive in enticing young people into true aviation.
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I know we tend to think that the computer is at fault but the type of kid that prefers computers over real life would likely be a couch potato in any era, computer or no. Personally, I think they get over it.
 
I could see someone thinking flying around on a sim shooting rockets and dogfighting is more fun then a benign flight in a spamcan. At least when you factor in the cost/hassle factor of each.
 
I was playing a flight simulator game on the old Commodore-64 (yup, I'm that old a student)...I can't remember it triggering any particular desire to do the real thing (though that was economically impossible anyway for me growing up), it was just fun flying around London or Berlin chasing Me-109s.

In hindsight, I should have spent a lot more time doing touch & goes than shooting up the Jerries -- that would have saved me some serious money later in life... :rofl:
 
Only a very small percentage of people will ever fly PIC for real, it doesn't matter what else they do or don't do along with it. Of those that do or will fly for real, AV SIMs and Radio Controlled aircraft can play both recreational and educational roles quite effectively in many ways, including cost factors.

Most dedicated recreational sim operators don't want to or just can't deal with all the demands of real flight and they can have a more "exciting" time to them on their computer screen, because their recreational standards are substantially lower than those required in actually doing a demanding activity for real.

Massive numbers of Av Sim buyers/operators do provide some amount of strengthening of GA, in that the purchase of those computerized systems provides employment and income to many people, a significant fraction of which are real pilots, attracted to AV SIMs by certain commonalities with real flying.
 
I doubt very much that it's necessarily the best way to get people into aviation to start with, because they can teach bad habits during initial training when eyes need to be outside of the airplane. Without a training curriculum and a supervisor, you can be as lazy and unsafe as you want in a PC-based simulator. What skills will transfer then? This is coming from someone who has been playing these games since MSFS 2.0.

The FAA has done studies on whether PC based FTDs transfer flying skills as far back as the 90s. The conclusion is that they do, but when used as an actual training aid--with instruction--and not a toy. They also found that instrument flying skills have the best transfer rate.
Dave Krall CFII said:
Most dedicated recreational sim operators don't want to or just can't deal with all the demands of real flight and they can have a more "exciting" time to them on their computer screen, because their recreational standards are substantially lower than those required in actually doing a demanding activity for real.
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With military simulator "serious games" there is an opportunity to play at stuff that an even smaller percentage of people will ever have access to. Unfortunately there are no standards--even people who dig the whole military dress up thing are approaching it from the standpoint of gaming.

There are aspects of the flight sim and "serious game" communities that would take pages and pages to analyze. Suffice it to say that the line has become blurred enough for there to be academic research focused on how to define what is a "serious game" and what is a simulator. There are companies out there who make training software for the government, then repackage it and sell it in "game form" with classified material, if any, ripped out. (ex: VBS2, DCS, Steel Beasts, etc) Then there are dual-purpose home use packages like X-Plane which get used as the basis for commercial FTDs.
Massive numbers of Av Sim buyers/operators do provide some amount of strengthening of GA, in that the purchase of those computerized systems provides employment and income to many people, a significant fraction of which are real pilots, attracted to AV SIMs by certain commonalities with real flying.
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Agreed, but engineers and hard science types are already overrepresented in the GA community. It may be a correlation and not a cause.
 
tinerj said:
Student getting out of his first flight (totally unimpressed):

"Flight Simulator is a lot more exciting and fun."
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This is completely possible, especially if the discovery flight was in a Cessna 172 and the flight sim plane was a P51 Mustang.

I came back to aviation, in part through an experience playing, of all things, "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas" on a PS2 console. There's a scenario where you steal a plane out of a hanger and fly it to some drug lord or something, I don't remember exactly. What I discovered was that I could return to that airport and fly anything there. I never finished the missions. I would just login, steal a plane and fly around LA for hours. :rofl:

I eventually bought X plane, CH Products yoke, throttle quadrant and pedals and began my pursuit of aviation. I'm now flight training, but I goof around with X plane still from time to time. How else can I fly an Ercoupe and do turns about a point around the Washington monument?

The simulators can stimulate interest and even represent an access point to flying, because in my case,the only stumbling block to interest was access.
 
All this said, I wonder how the transition from FSX to Flight has been for engaging people in GA. The newer Flight has a more "video-game" feel, but it really seems to capture the small-airport, bush-flying essence of GA. Now, I would never use it to practice, but the game is geared more towards a short XC over beautiful terrain than it is towards flying an F18 at Mach 2 and snagging the cable on the deck of a carrier.
 
video games are not a good way to get kids interested in anything other than more video games.
 
JHW said:
video games are not a good way to get kids interested in anything other than more video games.
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Disagree. For those of us who grew up before video games were invented, who read books about flying? Who watched movies or TV shows? A certain number of these people graduated from reading and watching to doing. Many didn't, but that's the way it will be with video games too.
 
gismo said:
Did you ever manage to fly between the antennas on the Hancock Tower? It took me several tries before I managed that. Another "game" my friends and I played was flying the biplane inverted through the hangar in the WWII context.
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Haha, I never tried that. I did attempt to take off a 747 at Meigs and see how fast I could go in the Learjet in a dive. Mostly I played games like Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe and Pacific Air War. I played some jet sims too like Falcon and MiG-29 but I preferred cranking and banking dogfights to selecting targets and fire & forget missiles.
 
All this said, I wonder how the transition from FSX to Flight has been for engaging people in GA. The newer Flight has a more "video-game" feel, but it really seems to capture the small-airport, bush-flying essence of GA. Now, I would never use it to practice, but the game is geared more towards a short XC over beautiful terrain than it is towards flying an F18 at Mach 2 and snagging the cable on the deck of a carrier.
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Given that Flight was cancelled...probably not much.

The killing off of MSFS is an indication of how the market is doing. 14 years ago, the flight sim genre was a big deal in the game industry. These days it is a niche market. The best we got was Lockheed Martin buying it, hiring part of the ACES team and relabeling it.
 
Everskyward said:
Disagree. For those of us who grew up before video games were invented, who read books about flying? Who watched movies or TV shows? A certain number of these people graduated from reading and watching to doing. Many didn't, but that's the way it will be with video games too.
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well, lets take a look at the post that came after yours:

MSPAviator said:
Haha, I never tried that. I did attempt to take off a 747 at Meigs and see how fast I could go in the Learjet in a dive. Mostly I played games like Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe and Pacific Air War. I played some jet sims too like Falcon and MiG-29 but I preferred cranking and banking dogfights to selecting targets and fire & forget missiles.
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does this sound like someone who is motivated by the game to go out and practice airspeed control in a piper tomahawk ?
 
JHW said:
well, lets take a look at the post that came after yours:

does this sound like someone who is motivated by the game to go out and practice airspeed control in a piper tomahawk ?
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Sure sounds like MSP was motivated enough to become a pilot eventually.
 
When I went for my discovery flight (C172) and had my first look at the panel, I instantly recognized all of the flight instruments, thanks to years of MSFS.

My biggest wake up call was how bumpy flying can be! All of those years on the PC made me think flying was mostly smooth:lol:. When I started lessons, it took me awhile to get accustomed to the bumps, enough to actually concentrate!

The second thing was learning to use the rudder. MSFS didn't do much in the way of teaching proper use of the rudder. X-Plane did much better but I didn't get X-Plane until after I started flight lessons.
 
Headspace said:
Given that Flight was cancelled...probably not much.

The killing off of MSFS is an indication of how the market is doing. 14 years ago, the flight sim genre was a big deal in the game industry. These days it is a niche market. The best we got was Lockheed Martin buying it, hiring part of the ACES team and relabeling it.
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No Flight is still a thing even though ACES was canned. Just not what most pilots consider a true simulator.
 
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