Are copies of logs OK

1

182driver

Pre-Flight
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182driver
I am pilot in the middle of a very detailed pre-buy inspection of a 1976 182P. The plane looks good, but it has missing log books – sort of. There are laminated copies of ALL of the logs from day 1, but the actual original logs are missing. Is that a factor, given that the copies of the log books are complete?

I think the current owner did not realize that he has copies and not originals.

I chatted with the previous owner, a helicopter and Citation pilot who spoke highly of the plane. He knew about the logs when he bought the plane a while ago. He had excellent reasons for buying and for selling and said he would buy the plane back if his circumstances changed again.

My mechanic spoke to the owner before that. He is an IA who bought the 182 for his son's instrument training. He copied and laminated the logs because they were in such bad shape, but he doesn't seem to really remember if he copied the originals or a copy - that was 5 or 6 years ago and it was too many years and too many planes ago. This IA said that the owner before him was "just a pilot" who probably knew that airplane logs existed, but not much more. I can only conjecture on what happened to the originals.

I have the actual originals from 1999 on, but laminated copies of the logs before that. I have the FAA CD also, and everything seems to line up with them. Since 1999, the plane got new radios, new paint, and new engine (now past TBO) so all the really major stuff is covered. It is going to get a new or rebuilt engine pretty soon, if I proceed with the purchase.
I'm not at all worried about the condition of the plane. My mechanic (a good friend) did a full annual on it instead of the customary pre-purchase inspection.

I just don't want to take a bath if I end up having to sell. (My current plan is to NEVER sell the plane, but stuff can happen.)

What would you do if you were considering buying such a plane or were asked to inspect it?
This is something of a cross post because I'd like to get the opinion of the mechanics out there.
 
All that matters is the information, not that the paper is authentic. In my opinion the majority of the information is useless, too. The airplane is what's important. Logs don't make it better or worse.
 
Why would you repost the question when your original question has already been answered in the first thread?
 
This is something of a cross post because I'd like to get the opinion of the mechanics out there. Part of the point is getting multiple opinions. I probably chose the wrong forum in the first place and would have only posted it here if I had been smarter; sorry about that.
 
182driver said:
This is something of a cross post because I'd like to get the opinion of the mechanics out there. Part of the point is getting multiple opinions. I probably chose the wrong forum in the first place and would have only posted it here if I had been smarter; sorry about that.
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FWIW, some of the posters on that thread were A&P IAs and at least one former FAA ASI.
 
The FAA is perfectly happy with photocopies of the originals as long as there's no question of their authenticity. See FAA Orders 8120.3G and 8900.1. What they would be less happy with would be a hand copy with no real certainty that they really are true copies of the original. If some individual mechanic doing an annual doesn't like that, referring them to the local FSDO should fix that problem.
 
Thanks. I don't have any way to PROVE that they are true copies that were not altered, so that sounds like it is at least something of an issue.
 
182driver said:
Thanks. I don't have any way to PROVE that they are true copies that were not altered, so that sounds like it is at least something of an issue.
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If I grabbed five or six friends and some blank logbooks and rewrote every entry and then scuffed up the books s bit, would you really be able to PROVE that they weren't the originals?

I think you are making a bigger deal out of this than it really is, or are you having cold feet about buying?

It's okay if you are. Many of us have been there.
 
182driver said:
Thanks. I don't have any way to PROVE that they are true copies that were not altered, so that sounds like it is at least something of an issue.
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It would be best if whoever did the copying signed a statement that they were true copies of the originals and had the signature notarized, but that's not always an option, especially ex post facto. OTOH, as long as they look like true copies of the original, nobody's going to argue about it, and I think that's not all that hard to tell if one has looked at many aircraft logs.
 
No, no cold feet about buying. Kind of the opposite. I've seen on these pages that people hesitate to walk away from a plane that they can tell is a problem. I appreciate the chance to get the opinions of people who can be objective since they have nothing riding on the decision. In this case, it may not be a black and white decision either, since I could offer less for the plane if the prevailing opinion was that it is worth less. This community pretty much represents the same market I would be selling into if I had to sell later, so the opinions count.

There's no chance at this point to get the person who copied to vouch for them.
 
182driver said:
No, no cold feet about buying. Kind of the opposite. I've seen on these pages that people hesitate to walk away from a plane that they can tell is a problem. I appreciate the chance to get the opinions of people who can be objective since they have nothing riding on the decision. In this case, it may not be a black and white decision either, since I could offer less for the plane if the prevailing opinion was that it is worth less. This community pretty much represents the same market I would be selling into if I had to sell later, so the opinions count.

There's no chance at this point to get the person who copied to vouch for them.
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If you buy this airplane, when the day comes to sell it, you will find people that might make an issue of it, but in my opinion, those people are likely not serious buyers. In other words, if it isn't the logs, they'd find some other pointless reason to attempt to argue a rock bottom price.
 
After getting lots of opinions from here and even from 3 aircraft appraisers who are friends of friends, I bought the plane. Most people thought that only having copies of the logs is no issue, but a few did say it would be harder to sell - pretty much what Fearless Tower said. One of the appraisers did say that he personally would not buy the plane because he has seen too much fraud in the industry (what a shame) but he did say that most of the market would probably be OK with it. Thanks for all the help, everybody!
 
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