Approach Controller Overly Concerned with Speed

Fearless Tower

Fearless Tower

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Jan 1, 2010
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Norfolk, VA
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Fearless Tower
Sometimes I think the sleepy Class C controllers here in Norfolk have a secret desire to be Class Bravo. On my final flight home this morning, the Norfolk Approach controller clears me for the ILS 5 and tells me to maintain my best possible speed (I'm already doing 160 KIAS). He is soooo concerned that he makes me specifically acknowledge that instruction and then tells me 2 more times including the final hand-off to Tower (there was an RJ 20 miles in tow). Before he hands me off, I hear him apologize to the Air Wisconsin guys behind me and tells them to slow to 190.

So I keep my speed up - about 150 on the approach until short final. Buy the time I taxied to the ramp and shut down, the RJ was still about a mile out. WTF? I'm all about helping ATC, but give me a break...this guy was freakin' more than the controllers sequencing me into the congo line at CLT last night.
 
Some controllers go out of their way,to accommodate jet traffic. Just haveli grin and bear it.
 
Just inexperienced controllers. A good vector beats an unnecessary speed restriction any day.

How was the weather this morning? Sucked in north GA. Barely got in.
 
Velocity173 said:
How was the weather this morning? Sucked in north GA. Barely got in.
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It was interesting. I stayed low (5K) to keep out of the ice. Had to use my onboard radar to pick through a few cells.

Last night was the interesting one - I made a brief stop for fuel at Shelby Co (EET) then when I took off, the whole night sky around Birmingham was lit up. Pretty good precip all the way until well east of Atlanta and some light rime....ended up with two chips of paint off the nose from ice coming off the props:mad2:
 
Norman said:
Magic word:

"Unable".
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Saying "unable" doesn't make the other traffic magically disappear, it just means the controller has to do something else. That something else is often vectors and it's generally easier to vector the slower traffic. Just something to be aware of, if you're truly unable to go faster then saying "Unable" is the proper response.
 
Everskyward said:
We got both vectors and a speed restriction this morning...[/QUOT

Sounds like they weren't very efficient vectors.

I laugh when I hear about "best forward airspeed" with a 160 KT Baron and an RJ. I worked 350 KT Hornets in the same pattern with 100 KT HH-46s. It's called pattern extension, pattern reduction, early turn on departure, late turn on departure, altitude separation. Speed restriction should either be used as a last resort or in busy Class B where everyone is coming in on a STAR and it's necessary for traffic flow. Trying to force a pilot into a speed they normally wouldn't fly on final is complete lack of vision on the part of the controller. Not to mention it forces Fearless into an uncomfortable position by flying an unusually high approach speed IMC.
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In the Comanche I was told to slow down for airline traffic in front of me when we were both heading into SAW. You just need a faster plane. :D



Granted, it was a turboprop and not a jet.
 
Norman said:
Magic word:

"Unable".
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How does that work for the request for "best possible speed"?

Best possible is not a cardinal value. I also find(prolly by myself) that "best" as an adjective is not well defined. To me, the pilot in the air, my best possible speed is the speed at which I am most prepared to make a safe landing. To the controller, best possible is some interpretation of the fastest(but not 'best') you can get down the ILS.

Either way they are not congruent understandings.
 
Leaving Yeager field in Charleston WV a controller asked me to expedite my climb. I told him very nicely that my Cherokee was expediting all it could.
 
docmirror said:
How does that work for the request for "best possible speed"?

Best possible is not a cardinal value. I also find(prolly by myself) that "best" as an adjective is not well defined. To me, the pilot in the air, my best possible speed is the speed at which I am most prepared to make a safe landing. To the controller, best possible is some interpretation of the fastest(but not 'best') you can get down the ILS.

Either way they are not congruent understandings.
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Controller shouldn't be giving a speed adjustment such as "maximum forward airspeed" on final (5 miles) anyway. The restriction is automatically cancelled after approach clearance as well. That's why in the OPs case the controller reiterated the adjustment or restriction after the clearance for the ILS. The OP helped out the controller by maintaining an abnormally high approach speed but once he gets within 5 miles, there's nothing stopping him from slowing up.
 
Velocity173 said:
Controller shouldn't be giving a speed adjustment such as "maximum forward airspeed" on final (5 miles) anyway. The restriction is automatically cancelled after approach clearance as well. That's why in the OPs case the controller reiterated the adjustment or restriction after the clearance for the ILS. The OP helped out the controller by maintaining an abnormally high approach speed but once he gets within 5 miles, there's nothing stopping him from slowing up.
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I think my point is not germane to your point, although you quoted me. "best" <> "fastest". My wife would agree with me on this, however a hooker might find fastest to be most profitable, therefore - best. Two different people, two different interpretations. "Best" is not a cardinal value, and is somewhat open to various interpretations.

In aviation your best speed might be most physically economical, i.e. best glide, or it might be steeper, i.e. best angle climb, or it might be less steep, but faster, i.e. best rate climb. In each case, the best is qualified by a delimiter such as glide, angle, rate. "Best possible" speed where possible is the delimiter is a very poor definition given the two competing needs of the pilot, and the controller. By convention, we know what he means but convention can be problematic. It's prolly why I'm not a controller, and barely a pilot. lol... :)
 
docmirror said:
I think my point is not germane to your point, although you quoted me. "best" <> "fastest". My wife would agree with me on this, however a hooker might find fastest to be most profitable, therefore - best. Two different people, two different interpretations. "Best" is not a cardinal value, and is somewhat open to various interpretations.

In aviation your best speed might be most physically economical, i.e. best glide, or it might be steeper, i.e. best angle climb, or it might be less steep, but faster, i.e. best rate climb. In each case, the best is qualified by a delimiter such as glide, angle, rate. "Best possible" speed where possible is the delimiter is a very poor definition given the two competing needs of the pilot, and the controller. By convention, we know what he means but convention can be problematic. It's prolly why I'm not a controller, and barely a pilot. lol... :)
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No best is not fastest... Fastest could exceed VNE if you're also dropping in altitude. :eek:

For me it depends on conditions. If it is a hot bumpy summer afternoon and I've got kids in the back then best is less than 150 knots. If the air is smooth, late then best is higher. Your first priority is to keeping yourself safe and comfortable.

If it is not working for the controller, they will vector you and resequence you which sucks but c'est la vie!
 
Don't ever ask a li'l Cherokee or 172 for best fwd because you WILL have to vector the 737 5 miles back around anyway. :)

Even if I comply with best fwd, I can give maybe 120 until short final where my GS goes from 110 to 55 quickly. I don't actually mind, though, it is very good exercise in energy management on short final pulling power to idle, dropping speed from 120kt to 65kt, adding full flaps and touching down a few seconds later. Flying is fun! :)
 
Velocity173 said:
Sounds like they weren't very efficient vectors.
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Dunno. We were still with center headed for the arrival. They asked for our speed which was .78m at that point. They had us slow to .76m then .74m, at which time they asked if we could go that slow. No problem. Then they had us transition at 260 knots. I heard them give the other airplane, "no slower than .79m". Finally they gave us 30 right for traffic. I looked at the TCAS and figured out that we were not following someone in trail but we were both headed towards the entry point in the arrival from different angles. I guess that was our traffic anyway. The controller probably just screwed up out closure rate since it was from different directions.
 
He was probably inexperienced. They are doing their best to accommodate everyone. I would recommend moving to a uncontrolled airport but you seem to have gripes about that as well. :rofl:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78902

I have been blown through the final approach course, asked to do 360s, given all kinds of speed restrictions. Just part of using the system. They are doing the best they can to keep everyone safe and on time.
 
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I will maintain best possible speed . . .. they did not issue a speed. And if they gave me anything more than 140kts to the FAF and ANYTHING above 100kt inside the FAF in IMC - i'd say unable.

The above is my best possible for my airplane and my desire to reconfigure the airplane inside the FAF. . . don't like it - turn me off - land the RJ and then we can chat about it on the ground with the quality control official. I'm AHEAD - I have the priority in the sequence. Especially if you try any shenanigans inside the FAF. . . .

Then you try being fast in the Comanche coming into the class D from the west for a landing to the west at 160 kts over the ground to the pattern - then you get the freaked out ' when were you planning on slowing?"

Lessee - I'm at 2500 coming down 800fpm 4 out entering the pattern at 2000. I'm mostly at idle - when I hit 2000 in 30 seconds I'm gonna level off and with 15" of MP by the time I'm abeam your tower I'll be 100mph, gear down and ready for flaps . . . .what I usually say: "I'll be 85 kts at the tower at 2000'." What I'm thinking is: "just make me right traffic and I'll slide right in . . . "
 
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Fearless Tower said:
So I keep my speed up - about 150 on the approach until short final. Buy the time I taxied to the ramp and shut down, the RJ was still about a mile out. WTF? I'm all about helping ATC, but give me a break...this guy was freakin' more than the controllers sequencing me into the congo line at CLT last night.
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Last time I was at CLT, I was on final and landing on a runway intersecting with another that had a southwest 737 on final. The controller never asked me about speed. I did my usual thing. About a quarter mile final, tower asked if I could stop short of runway xxx. Given that I was on a relatively short final and was flying a plane I didn't have much time in, I replied unable.

ATC acknowledged and immediately issued an instruction to the southwest jet to go around. A very professional voice comes back from the jet to acknowledge the go around, and in the background you can hear the other pilot say "go around! what the hell!"

My airline pilot buddy who was riding shotgun was beside himself laughing. He said they needed the practice.


BTW if I am asked to maintain best forward speed, or to reduce speed I will reply with a number. It lets them know what to expect. Especially with planes like a Swift, no one knows what that is.
 
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Gucci Pilot said:
He was probably inexperienced. They are doing their best to accommodate everyone. I would recommend moving to a uncontrolled airport but you seem to have gripes about that as well. :rofl:
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I do that too. I keep the Waco at Chesapeake (uncontrolled) and the Baron is based at ORF.

'Best' is subjective. I do alot of flying at Class B and C airports around the country....Norfolk is a bit of an oddball. Norfolk is a rather sleepy airport, yet the controllers here get surprisingly stressed out. I was reminded of this as I flew back and forth across the country in the last few days.

Contrast Norfolk to my experience going into CLT last night. Approach had to sequence me into a line of around 7 jets all going to 23. While being vectored, Approach asked what my Indicated Airspeed was and then later asked me to maintain that as long as I could. Without freaking out, it was clear what was needed to not screw up the spacing.
 
Velocity173 said:
What area? ATL was good all day. The mountains with rain / snow & turb wasn't so good.
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That is why I kept going last night to CLT. If I had stopped overnight in Chattanooga, I probably would have been stuck....or had to stay real low and take the long way around the mountains.
 
Fearless Tower said:
That is why I kept going last night to CLT. If I had stopped overnight in Chattanooga, I probably would have been stuck....or had to stay real low and take the long way around the mountains.
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That's what I did today. I had to deviate south around the mountains because the mountains were obscured with snow / rain. Of course I fly a non FIKI plane and I'm no longer current for IFR so I have my restrictions.
 
Fearless Tower said:
That is why I kept going last night to CLT. If I had stopped overnight in Chattanooga, I probably would have been stuck....or had to stay real low and take the long way around the mountains.
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I have had to do that several times going to Nashville in the winter to avoid ice. Go south around the mountains. Adds 30 min to my trip
 
Fearless Tower said:
'Best' is subjective. I do alot of flying at Class B and C airports around the country....Norfolk is a bit of an oddball. Norfolk is a rather sleepy airport, yet the controllers here get surprisingly stressed out. I was reminded of this as I flew back and forth across the country in the last few days.

Contrast Norfolk to my experience going into CLT last night. Approach had to sequence me into a line of around 7 jets all going to 23. While being vectored, Approach asked what my Indicated Airspeed was and then later asked me to maintain that as long as I could. Without freaking out, it was clear what was needed to not screw up the spacing.
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Yeah...Norfolk isn't use to handling the volume of traffic that Charlotte handles. I wouldn't expect them to be as sharp with sequencing as the guys at Charlotte.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Contrast Norfolk to my experience going into CLT last night. Approach had to sequence me into a line of around 7 jets all going to 23. While being vectored, Approach asked what my Indicated Airspeed was and then later asked me to maintain that as long as I could. Without freaking out, it was clear what was needed to not screw up the spacing.
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Yep, had that at CLT, too (along with "turn off as soon as possible"). He's also got multiple runways.

My guess is that the ORF controller is still learning how to deal with a mix of traffic.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
He was probably inexperienced. They are doing their best to accommodate everyone. I would recommend moving to a uncontrolled airport but you seem to have gripes about that as well. :rofl:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78902

I have been blown through the final approach course, asked to do 360s, given all kinds of speed restrictions. Just part of using the system. They are doing the best they can to keep everyone safe and on time.
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This is my impression as well. I hear the "best possible speed" request quite often going into HWD. The reason is that they have to suspend approaches into OAK 30 to let an IFR into HWD 28L. I figure they are slipping me in and if I could get down fast enough they wouldn't have to break me off and wait for a bigger window. So, I don't have a problem doing it.
 
noahfong said:
I figure they are slipping me in and if I could get down fast enough they wouldn't have to break me off and wait for a bigger window. So, I don't have a problem doing it.
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I don't usually have a problem with it either, but in this particular case I was already inbound on the approach doing 160 and the RJ was at least 20 mile behind me. The request was serious overkill. I wasn't exaggerating when I said I was shutdown at the FBO before he crossed the threshold.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I don't usually have a problem with it either, but in this particular case I was already inbound on the approach doing 160 and the RJ was at least 20 mile behind me. The request was serious overkill. I wasn't exaggerating when I said I was shutdown at the FBO before he crossed the threshold.
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Ah...sorry I missed that. Sounds like he will get more comfortable with the spacing because you helped him out. He probably owes you one.
 
Fearless Tower said:
So I keep my speed up - about 150 on the approach until short final. Buy the time I taxied to the ramp and shut down, the RJ was still about a mile out. WTF? I'm all about helping ATC, but give me a break...this guy was freakin' more than the controllers sequencing me into the congo line at CLT last night.
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I'm not a Trekkie but a "given her all I got captain" may have been appropriate
 
docmirror said:
How does that work for the request for "best possible speed"?

Best possible is not a cardinal value. I also find(prolly by myself) that "best" as an adjective is not well defined. To me, the pilot in the air, my best possible speed is the speed at which I am most prepared to make a safe landing. To the controller, best possible is some interpretation of the fastest(but not 'best') you can get down the ILS.

Either way they are not congruent understandings.
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Best forward speed changes a bunch, depending on the weather, airport and situation. When I was flying the 1900, if it was VMC, it wasn't much of a challenge to do barber pole to about 1nm outside the marker and still configure and fly a stable approach.

Know your airplane, know what you can do.
 
Not sure what you were flying, but CRJ's have an unusually high Vref. He might've just been anticipating compression on final.
 
I wish Ellsworth approach would learn to ask for speeds. I get tired of either holding or being vectored 20 miles away when I could easily do 150 on the approach. Sigh.
 
Z06_Mir said:
I wish Ellsworth approach would learn to ask for speeds. I get tired of either holding or being vectored 20 miles away when I could easily do 150 on the approach. Sigh.
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Next time just say, "Hey approach, I can do 150 if it will help things along"
 
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