Apprenticeship and Pay?

[redtail]

I always figured volunteering was OK when done for a non-profit. Not so much so for a for-profit business. I found some information here.

http://www.dol.gov/elaws/esa/flsa/docs/volunteers.asp



And here.

http://www.dol.gov/elaws/esa/flsa/docs/trainees.asp

"If all of the following criteria apply, the trainees or students are not employees within the meaning of the Act:

The training, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to that which would be given in a vocational school;

The training is for the benefit of the trainees or students;

The trainees or students do not displace regular employees, but work under close supervision;

The employer that provides the training receives no immediate advantage from the activities of the trainees or students and, on occasion, his operations may even be impeded;

The trainees or students are not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the training period; and

The employer and the trainees or students understand that the trainees or students are not entitled to wages for the time spent in training."


This is exactly as we understood the terms, and we were covered by the employer's insurance if we got hurt or screwed something up. They provided all the safety equipment and demanded that we use it! Including steel toe boots.

 

[Henning]

NOPE! I work with three volunteer organizations. We have a job bank that is filled with all kinds of tasks, some are community service oriented, and some are direct skill training such as the type described by the OP. We have openings for a sheet metal assistant, landscaper, concrete work, etc.

In the case of the OP, as I said, if they paid him he would be instantly fired because the libs(like you) have raised the min wage, and all the associated shyte that official employment requires. That's why there are all kinds of jobs at the volunteer organizations that fall under the 'too low scale' to pay wages.

I'm certain that several of our job bank companies or organizations give money to the volunteers under the table, and I'm fine with that. Anything I can do to keep someone off of unemployment for another month is all good.

.

I'll reprint this from Mari's post, it is illegal what is happening:

Under the FLSA, employees may not volunteer services to for-profit private sector employers. On the other hand, in the vast majority of circumstances, individuals can volunteer services to public sector employers. When Congress amended the FLSA in 1985, it made clear that people are allowed to volunteer their services to public agencies and their community with but one exception - public sector employers may not allow their employees to volunteer, without compensation, additional time to do the same work for which they are employed.

Besides, how the heck does doing free volunteer work keep someone off unemployment?

 

[Mason]

There is a difference between internship and apprenticeship.

 

[Henning]

There is a difference between internship and apprenticeship.

Yes, and servitude as well.

 

[redtail]

Did you go through IBEW, they have one of the best apprenticeship programs out there.

Ok, so upon further reading, it's apparent that I wasn't really an apprentice. I was just in a high school work/study program, to introduce me to the work force and provide valuable hands on experience in my chosen craft.

Thinking back, there were Electricians, Trades helpers and us(unpaid high school newbs).

I was only 17 at the time and definately wasn't putting in 32 to 40 hours, and was under no obligation to work for an agreed period of time after the program concluded. Still, it was a great program to augment the Vo-Tech classes and it did lead to a rewarding career with the company.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apprenticeships
"Most of their training is done while working for an employer who helps the apprentices learn their trade or profession, in exchange for their continuing labor for an agreed period after they have achieved measurable competencies"


Example of a U.S. apprenticeship program
Persons interested in learning to become electricians can join one of several apprenticeship programs offered jointly by the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers and the National Electrical Contractors Association. No background in electrical work is required. A minimum age of 18 is required. There is no maximum age. Men and women are equally invited to participate. The organization in charge of the program is called the National Joint Apprenticeship and Training Committee[3].

Apprentice electricians work 32 to 40+ hours per week at the trade under the supervision of a journeyman wireman and receive pay and benefits. They spend an additional 8 hours every other week in classroom training. At the conclusion of training (five years for inside wireman and outside lineman, less for telecommunications ), apprentices reach the level of journeyman wireman. All of this is offered at no charge, except for the cost of books (which is approximately $200–600 per year(depending on grades). Persons completing this program are considered highly skilled by employers and command high pay and benefits. Other unions such as the Operating Engineers, Ironworkers, Sheet Metal Workers, Plasterers, Bricklayers and others offer similar programs.

Trade associations such as the Independent Electrical Contractors and Associated Builders and Contractors also offer a variety of apprentice training programs. Registered programs also are offered by the Aerospace Joint Apprenticeship Committee (AJAC) to fill a shortage of aerospace and advanced manufacturing workers in Washington State.

 

[SCCutler]

Did you go through IBEW, they have one of the best apprenticeship programs out there.

...along with, in most areas, a very long bench full of under-employed journeymen.

 

[gkainz]

Incorrect, and incorrect. Both my kids are on paid internships and have been since they started college. Engineering internships are almost always paid, including room and board in many cases.

My son and daughter-in-law are both working in unpaid internships in Hollywierd. Both have BA Film degrees. Apparently that's the normal path into this industry.

 

[docmirror]

My son and daughter-in-law are both working in unpaid internships in Hollywierd. Both have BA Film degrees. Apparently that's the normal path into this industry.

They should have gone to engineering school.

 

[JHW]

They should have gone to engineering school.

or nursing, or accounting, or...

I never cease to be amazed that young people will make a conscious decision to have a lifetime of poverty.

 

[gkainz]

They are both definitely non-Engineering personality types. So, pursuing their dreams may send them down the path of poverty, but Engineering would send them down a lifetime of frustration, perhaps.

 

[wabower]

The records abound with documented occurrences of lightning striking the privy.
Especially when selling something is involved.

or nursing, or accounting, or...

I never cease to be amazed that young people will make a conscious decision to have a lifetime of poverty.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Mom wants to get rid of him..... He lost his health insurance TODAY...

Actually his Insurance on mom and dad's insurance just expanded to 26 years old.

 

[TMetzinger]

or nursing, or accounting, or...

I never cease to be amazed that young people will make a conscious decision to have a lifetime of poverty.

And yet I constantly run into folks who make less money than I do, and are quite happy!

 

[TommyG]

You need to focus on spending more time working with the a&p. that is the only thing I can see being a benefit to your future. That can be apprenticeship that might be unpaid, but you are actually learning a skill.

 

[JHW]

And yet I constantly run into folks who make less money than I do, and are quite happy!

so do I, but none of them are homeless and destitute, except the ones who are falling down drunk, i guess you can call them happy.

the happiest time of my life was a couple years in college when i didn't make but 10K/year. Roof over my head, beer in the fridge, and my own ercoupe parked (for free) under the wing of a generous soul's king air in his hangar. Life was good.

 

[N801BH]

Actually his Insurance on mom and dad's insurance just expanded to 26 years old.

Maybe.... Not even Pelosi knows that for sure....

The sad part is... if it is true then my increased insurance premium goes to pay for that benefit... and that SUCKS...

 

[Henning]

Ok, so upon further reading, it's apparent that I wasn't really an apprentice. I was just in a high school work/study program, to introduce me to the work force and provide valuable hands on experience in my chosen craft.

Thinking back, there were Electricians, Trades helpers and us(unpaid high school newbs).

I was only 17 at the time and definately wasn't putting in 32 to 40 hours, and was under no obligation to work for an agreed period of time after the program concluded. Still, it was a great program to augment the Vo-Tech classes and it did lead to a rewarding career with the company.

What you did sounds like an internship, it was linked through an academic program at a VoTech school.

 

[Henning]

...along with, in most areas, a very long bench full of under-employed journeymen.

True, but it also depends on how good you are and if you are willing to travel. If you live somewhere with no construction or major industrial program, yep, you'll sit on the bench. If you are willing to travel with the work you can do very well. I know guys in all trades who follow power plant shut down/overhaul cycles and make excellent money and work whenever they want, and there are always openings for skilled guys and gals who are good and willing to work hard. If you're lazy and/or just want to put in your weekly 40 and go home every night, you fall to the whims of your local economy no matter what you do.

 

[Henning]

My son and daughter-in-law are both working in unpaid internships in Hollywierd. Both have BA Film degrees. Apparently that's the normal path into this industry.

Yes it is, that is where I saw a lot of free labor.

 

[Henning]

or nursing, or accounting, or...

I never cease to be amazed that young people will make a conscious decision to have a lifetime of poverty.

They aren't, they are investing their youth in the dream of Hollywood in hopes of making it big. The good ones who prove reliable during their internships end up with very good paying jobs.

 

[bigblockz8]

Actually his Insurance on mom and dad's insurance just expanded to 26 years old.

Well not really. My mom got laid off and none of us have insurance right now. Trying to deal with SS but that's a mess, as usual. Well not having insurance is a lie, we have car insurance

 

[bigblockz8]

A quick update: I brought up a new schedule with the boss and informed him that I cannot come as often because I have to take a (paying) job so that I can pay off my tuition that's still due. He said okay and did not have any questions or comments. As for safety equipment I've been using my shirt over my nose when sand blasting or messing with insulation.Same with solvents and solutions. I need to buy a mask this weekend. Bought a $2 pair of safety glasses but sure don't have the tools for the job! Not buying any beyond my basic set when I'm not being paid. Plus it costs about $12 a day in gas when gas is $3.21, it's at $3.39 right now. Oh well.

BUT, BUT, I did get to fly an informal lesson for 1.5hrs at night last week with an A&P as a bribe for helping him with a plane. A very dirty one. That was a great flight. First night flight too. Silly to want to stay just for the hope of another one of those. Yet I still do.

As far as pay, the opportunity cost is beginning to accumulate. I passed up a job offer that would have been full time (but requires me to drop out of school) that pays 15/hr. because I was told that pay would come in the next couple of weeks.

So $15*40hrs= $600/week * 11 weeks (since the job offer)=$6600, an amount that would have gotten me to solo

 

[N801BH]

....BUT, BUT, I did get to fly an informal lesson for 1.5hrs at night last week with an A&P as a bribe for helping him with a plane. A very dirty one. That was a great flight. First night flight too. Silly to want to stay just for the hope of another one of those. Yet I still do.

Yup... You have been bitten by the flying bug.... badly...

Sorry to inform you but... it NEVER goes away either..

 

[SCCutler]

True, but it also depends on how good you are and if you are willing to travel. If you live somewhere with no construction or major industrial program, yep, you'll sit on the bench. If you are willing to travel with the work you can do very well. I know guys in all trades who follow power plant shut down/overhaul cycles and make excellent money and work whenever they want, and there are always openings for skilled guys and gals who are good and willing to work hard. If you're lazy and/or just want to put in your weekly 40 and go home every night, you fall to the whims of your local economy no matter what you do.

All very, very true.

 

[dukeblue219]

As for safety equipment I've been using my shirt over my nose when sand blasting or messing with insulation.Same with solvents and solutions. I need to buy a mask this weekend. Bought a $2 pair of safety glasses but sure don't have the tools for the job!

Assuming he's being truthful and not just trolling us... anybody want to address this? Good grief.

So $15*40hrs= $600/week * 11 weeks (since the job offer)=$6600, an amount that would have gotten me to solo

You didn't come here for life or financial advise, I know, but it sounds like you and your family have other priorities at the moment. I'm certainly not suggesting that you drop out if you don't have to, but if you DID, and used the money you earned to take flying lessons I'm not sure that would really be the best thing. Get that health insurance taken care of. But, hey, I know you didn't ask, so take it for what it's worth.

 

[N801BH]

Assuming he's being truthful and not just trolling us... anybody want to address this? Good grief.

(As for safety equipment I've been using my shirt over my nose when sand blasting or messing with insulation.Same with solvents and solutions. I need to buy a mask this weekend. Bought a $2 pair of safety glasses but sure don't have the tools for the job)

.

Hmmm. sounds like someone is laying a foundation for a lawsuit..

 

[bigblockz8]

Assuming he's being truthful and not just trolling us... anybody want to address this? Good grief.

Actually the guys with the equipment don't use it. Next time you're in the shop look around for people with safety goggles, face masks, gloves, etc. You won't find any! I do have the heat resistant gloves and that's just about all that anybody uses. Fiberglass in the eye is a pain from what I've been told. As is safety wire that gets cut and hits you in the eye.

 

[douglas393]

Actually the guys with the equipment don't use it. Next time you're in the shop look around for people with safety goggles, face masks, gloves, etc. You won't find any! I do have the heat resistant gloves and that's just about all that anybody uses. Fiberglass in the eye is a pain from what I've been told. As is safety wire that gets cut and hits you in the eye.

Like my mom used to say "it's all fun and games until someone gets poked in the eye."

 

[denverpilot]

My niece is paying $160k for an aviation management degree at a university over 4 years and has no prospects of ever passing a medical. She is now about to graduate with no prospects for a job but with the debt incurred.

ER, or UND? Ouch. I'm assuming ER.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Well not really. My mom got laid off and none of us have insurance right now. Trying to deal with SS but that's a mess, as usual. Well not having insurance is a lie, we have car insurance

Insurance and Interest are the financial surfs of our day.

Almost all forms or insurance is a big rip off. Go with out it. Just eat right, work out, walk and look both ways before you cross the street.

If you can avoid paying insurance followed by interest in your life you will be about 40% better off financially in the long run.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

ER, or UND? Ouch. I'm assuming ER.

Undergrad in a public institution.

Oklahoma U or state whatever is at Norman, OK. That includes the apartment her parents rent for her, car to commute back home on weekends, eating....books, tuition which is no longer cheap......Poor old dad is an Engineer and makes too much for any grants.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Well not really. My mom got laid off and none of us have insurance right now. Trying to deal with SS but that's a mess, as usual. Well not having insurance is a lie, we have car insurance

****, where do you live? This sounds like some 3rd world country or worse, Texas.

 

[N801BH]

Undergrad in a public institution.

Oklahoma U or state whatever is at Norman, OK. That includes the apartment her parents rent for her, car to commute back home on weekends, eating....books, tuition which is no longer cheap......Poor old dad is an Engineer and makes too much for any grants.

I just don't get it................

Where is it written that parents need to fund higher education for kids over 18 ......

My generation was presumed to be "grown up" at 18 and MOST of us funded our own future... ..

Parents like that do NOT get any tears from me....

I have 10 bucks that kid will be living at home 10 years from now..

 

[docmirror]

****, where do you live? This sounds like some 3rd world country or worse, Texas.

http://www.chron.com/news/texas/article/Perry-New-York-governor-envies-Texas-economy-4183224.php

http://www.kcentv.com/story/20554069/google-investing-in-west-texas-economy

http://www.star-telegram.com/2013/01/07/4530607/texas-economic-rebound-boosts.html

Blue state envy. If the rest of the country were doing as well as Texas, we'd have the debt paid off, a gun in every house, and kids would respect their betters.

 

[denverpilot]

Insurance and Interest are the financial surfs of our day.

Almost all forms or insurance is a big rip off. Go with out it. Just eat right, work out, walk and look both ways before you cross the street.

If you can avoid paying insurance followed by interest in your life you will be about 40% better off financially in the long run.

I wouldn't put medical insurance in that category at today's medical prices, unless you're cool with running personal finance as a string of bankruptcies. Many are. It's the economy and relative low value of the dollar.

I'm also a little hard pressed to agree for Term Life for young families, also... their earning power hasn't made it to a point where the kids will be able to go to college and not hold down three jobs if dad or mom are splattered across the Interstate by a semi in a snowstorm.

Have family who lost "mom" at 48. Medical covered the year of cancer treatments, term life made it so "dad" didn't have to work while he was recovering emotionally. Like a lot of folks, he reassessed whether or not going to an office to play database administrator was worth wasting the rest of his life on, after losing "mom", and he semi-retired.

 

[Everskyward]

Almost all forms or insurance is a big rip off.

Until you have the occasion to make a big claim, or two.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

I just don't get it................

Where is it written that parents need to fund higher education for kids over 18 ......

My generation was presumed to be "grown up" at 18 and MOST of us funded our own future... ..

Parents like that do NOT get any tears from me....

I have 10 bucks that kid will be living at home 10 years from now..

I am the only one in my family to get a 4 year college degree, it took me til 30 to do it. I told my son I could help him out if he went directly from HS into College, stayed local and lived at home and went to the public university. So he graduated zero debt as an Electrical Engineer. Job offer before graduation, Paid Internship between Jr/SR year.

He also worked 3/4 time during first 3 years of college, for me running a store and managing employees and I only paid him $10 per hour, bit over minimum wage so I feel it was a wash. My only contribution was a used car I gave him at high school graduation which would last for 4 years (free and clear so he wouldn't have payments), room and board at home and about $1200 per semester tuition back then.

If he elected to go away to college he would have been on his own for that hit, likewise if he went to Private college out of state.

My sister married a Petroleum Engineer and there daughter is an only child too. So they made the same deal with their daughter but her degree was only offered in OKC 150 miles from home. Dad tried to get her into Engineering but she wouldn't here of it. So the extra housing, transportation, tuition was bit higher and her being a girl they gave her a new Mustang car for safety of course. I can see why they contributed so much. I don't know if she has debt or not. I am sure they helped her no more than they could afford. He delayed retirement till this year now that she graduated.

I think Parents should help kids go through college but only if they can afford to do so and they want to. I don't believe in debt which rules out a lot of choices. Just cuz dad pays for it doesn't mean you can go to Pepperdyne in Malibu and have a wonderful party for four years.

My older son by almost 10 years, we paid his way (about Jr yr) until he got a girlfriend and moved into a nice luxury apartment and borrowed money for some new furniture while mom and I were scrimping......he got the boot financially and never quite forgave me for it. But that is the way the Italian cookie crumples some times.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

http://www.chron.com/news/texas/article/Perry-New-York-governor-envies-Texas-economy-4183224.php

http://www.kcentv.com/story/20554069/google-investing-in-west-texas-economy

http://www.star-telegram.com/2013/01/07/4530607/texas-economic-rebound-boosts.html

Blue state envy. If the rest of the country were doing as well as Texas, we'd have the debt paid off, a gun in every house, and kids would respect their betters.

I like to visit Arlington and Dallas. Especially when I don't get a gun pulled on me.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

I wouldn't put medical insurance in that category at today's medical prices, unless you're cool with running personal finance as a string of bankruptcies. Many are. It's the economy and relative low value of the dollar.

Nate: anytime there is an easy payer whether it is an insurance that noone watchs the invoices for or a big fat government credit or loan or grant you will have hyper inflation and bubble in that area. Student loans/cost of college for one example; Health insurance (no one checks the bills so gouging became paramount); easy loans....enough said. If there were no insurance on health then everything in health would have to be priced so that the average person could pay it out of checking or at least put it on the visa and none of this $100k operation crap for 2 hrs in an operating room. I will never buy that much of that is about malpractice either. It is a big circle of corruption. Everyone in insurance is getting rich everyone buyin insurance are have nots.

I'm also a little hard pressed to agree for Term Life for young families, also... their earning power hasn't made it to a point where the kids will be able to go to college and not hold down three jobs if dad or mom are splattered across the Interstate by a semi in a snowstorm.

I would not buy term life for a young family unless my wife is an orphan with no family and I had no family. My mother raised four kids without help from a man. Of course we all worked from 15 years old but that taught us values. I don't get this If I die you are better off than if I am alive business....

Sorry about mom but dad just might have been better off if need forced him to get back to work....I don't know but it is hard to say if Insurance was a blessing or curse. My step dad died from over drinking. he was a good man and mom loved him greatly and she ached like no ones business for years. But she worked her way through it. She had too. She could have lived with any of us five adult kids but she chose to live alone and work.

IMO take that extra $600 per year and add it to your 401K or pension or what have you, if yo don't know how to invest it then double payment down on your mortgage.

The only real security is a free and clear home which you can afford to maintain and keep no matter what happens to your family. Five people in my family (sons and siblings) all have 100% paid off homes/cars. A lot can happen to a person when they are debt free and they just soldier on.

I'll never have to worry if the insurance company decides to pay my claim.

We over estimate risk and we over pay for insurance. Smart people have known this and sold us insurance from the early ages. They are wealthy.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Until you have the occasion to make a big claim, or two.

I guess we do not have to ask what industry you or your spouse work in?