Applied carb heat - nada

mryan75

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mryan75
Hey guys,

Doing a runup yesterday in a Cherokee 180, mag checks fine, pulled the carb heat, nothing. No drop whatsoever in RPM. What are the potential mechanical faults? And (stupid question time) is it possible I had carb ice and that's why there was no drop? I scrubbed figuring it was mechanical, then afterwards wondered if it was ice. Very short taxi, engine had been running maybe 6-8 minutes. It didn't occur to me to keep the carb heat on to see if it cleared and the RPM would actually increase.

ATIS was calling temp +2, dew point -10. Carb ice chart has it barely in the "light icing, cruise or descent power" range, if not just outside it.
 
Doesn't sound like a particularly humid day. Where was your mixture set? If leaned out, recall that carb heat application could indicate a rise in rpm.
 
My guess would ne the same as your initial one... a mechanical issue. Even if you did have ice present, applying carb heat would still show an initial drop in rpm as warm air was applied, and then a rise once the ice starts to clear. As an aside., when applying carb heat as a check for ice, give it time...don't just apply it, verify a drop, then take it out. That can actually cause ice to build up faster. Apply it, check the drop, then wait a while to see if rpms start to climb again.

How does you carb heat control feel? And more or less resistance in the cable? Binding? Looser, as if the opposite end isn't connected to the flap/valve anymore? That would be my first check.
 
My guess would ne the same as your initial one... a mechanical issue. Even if you did have ice present, applying carb heat would still show an initial drop in rpm as warm air was applied, and then a rise once the ice starts to clear. As an aside., when applying carb heat as a check for ice, give it time...don't just apply it, verify a drop, then take it out. That can actually cause ice to build up faster. Apply it, check the drop, then wait a while to see if rpms start to climb again.

How does you carb heat control feel? And more or less resistance in the cable? Binding? Looser, as if the opposite end isn't connected to the flap/valve anymore? That would be my first check.
It was my first flight in a new plane, so I don't really have anything to compare it to. Though I did not feel much resistance when pulling the lever down. I tried it twoce because it did feel weird/no real resistance in the lever. But again, that could be meaningless. Giving it another go today, so we shall see.
 
Doesn't sound like a particularly humid day. Where was your mixture set? If leaned out, recall that carb heat application could indicate a rise in rpm.
Good question, I'm 99.9% sure I went full rich before the runup.
 
Does the lever feel different? Anyhow it needs checking out. It doesn't fail like in the Cessnas when you pull the carb heat knob out and it doesn't stop and you find you've got a foot or more of it in the cockpit.
 
Sounds unlikely that you’d have had ice, and even so, the application of carb heat should have still caused a decrease in RPM regardless. My first inclination says the carb butterfly valve isn’t opening like it should, but it may not be that obvious. Something within the linkage itself must not be operating to spec. Have the mechanic take a peek.
 
Check both ends of the carb heat cable. I'd check to see if the engine end is moving before crawling under the panel.
 
I’ve had this happen on my pa28, the carb heat cable broke apart. It’s metal so it rusted. General wear and tear. Mechanic will need to replace the cable.
 
There's a thread on the piper board that shows when that little bracket that connects cables to the carb heat cable or alternate air door (if injected), gets some slop and fatigue fails. Mine did earlier this year. This picture is from the piper board on a carb heat cable connection. Same bracket as mine on the injected 360. Same failure profile.
20191115_133705.jpeg
 
The last time this happened to me, on the Cardinal, the airbox had detached from the carburetor!
 
There's a thread on the piper board that shows when that little bracket that connects cables to the carb heat cable or alternate air door (if injected), gets some slop and fatigue fails. Mine did earlier this year. This picture is from the piper board on a carb heat cable connection. Same bracket as mine on the injected 360. Same failure profile.
View attachment 79827
This sort of stuff is supposed to be inspected annually or 100 hours, and it takes a lot longer than a year or 100 hours to wear like that. I used to find a lot of stuff ready to fail just because the mechanics didn't look at things too well. I'd find that bellcrank's hole worn right up to the edge of the lever, and the bolt that goes in it would be cut halfway through. Once one finds a couple of items like that, one gets serious about checking the whole airplane real closely to see what else has been ignored.

The carb heat cable, along with the mixture and throttle cables, should be replaced when the engine is overhauled. Vibration, heat, and corrosion all take their toll. That carb heat cable will rattle inside its housing and get a whole series of notches worn in it until it breaks. If it breaks on takeoff, the heat can cause a critical loss of power. If it breaks when you need it to clear carb ice, you might be in for an unscheduled landing.
 
"The carb heat cable, along with the mixture and throttle cables, should be replaced when the engine is overhauled"

I have never seen that done in real life. Nice idea, but getting an owner to actually do it would be an uphill battle.
 
"The carb heat cable, along with the mixture and throttle cables, should be replaced when the engine is overhauled"

I have never seen that done in real life. Nice idea, but getting an owner to actually do it would be an uphill battle.

I insist on that being done.
 
New to you plane? Inspect the carb heat to see where it comes from. There are some crap heat robber setups out there. A not very hot source with a not very highly pressurized system could be anemic.
 
"The carb heat cable, along with the mixture and throttle cables, should be replaced when the engine is overhauled"

I have never seen that done in real life. Nice idea, but getting an owner to actually do it would be an uphill battle.
After we had a throttle cable and a couple of carb heat cables fail in flight in the school, we started doing it. Airplanes and people are worth a lot more than new controls. When I went to work for an aircraft shop, our owners readily agreed to new cables. They're chump change compared to a new engine. And new cables feel so much better, too. No stickiness or roughness. I ran across many corroded cables, or they had their PVC jackets melted off by nearby exhaust components. Or carb heat and mixture cables that were way too short because mechanics had trimmed their worn ends so they could keep using that old cable.
 
Had a Warrior, the end of the arm that controls the flapper broke off where the cable connects.
 
Had a Warrior, the end of the arm that controls the flapper broke off where the cable connects.
Like the picture in post #11, it's a sign of sloppy annuals. This stuff is plenty strong but it needs to be checked and repaired before it breaks. That's what inspections are for. Over the years I became convinced that a lot of owners were either holding the mechanic back so as to save money, or they weren't getting the work they were paying for. Either way it eventually presents a safety problem.

Many airplanes I encountered gave the impression that annuals consisted of little more than oil changes.
 
I am the exact opposite, and tell them to make it perfect every annual. If a part is slightly suspect, change it.
Time for a new engine, cool, but don't just do the engine, make sure everything attached is perfect as well. Good time for the prop to be overhauled, how is the alternator, starter, exhaust, hoses, wiring, cables, and I don't care if the battery seems to be fine still, I replace it every 3 years. Maintenance is a lot cheaper than a failure!
 
I am the exact opposite, and tell them to make it perfect every annual. If a part is slightly suspect, change it.
Time for a new engine, cool, but don't just do the engine, make sure everything attached is perfect as well. Good time for the prop to be overhauled, how is the alternator, starter, exhaust, hoses, wiring, cables, and I don't care if the battery seems to be fine still, I replace it every 3 years. Maintenance is a lot cheaper than a failure!
Yup. I'm always amazed at the number of times I've read of alternator failures (and the occasional starter) on this site. Alternator brushes are supposed to be checked periodically, but it means removing the alternator and opening it. In the flight school most alternators got checked every 500 hours, and the brushes were shot at 1000-1200, so they got replaced at the second 500-hour check. In the G1000 172 I found them 3/4 gone at the first 500, a reflection of the extra load placed on it to drive all the avionics and stuff. I started checking them at 300 hours.

So, some guys will say, why should an airplane's alternator wear out its brushes so fast when the alternator in my car lasts for many years and miles? Well, an alternator is designed to reach its redline at the same time the engine reaches its redline, and redline represents max production capacity for the alternator. The car's engine redlines at 6000 or whatever, and it almost never gets there and when it does it isn't there very long. The airplane's alternator has a much larger pulley driving it, or it has a gearset inside the engine to drive it, and the engine can be at or near redline for very long periods. A 2700 RPM engine is often cruised at 2500, or 93% of its designed max, and so is the alternator at that high percentage, while the car's alternator might be running at 35% or so. Those little brushes are covering a lot more linear feet of slip ring movement in an airplane's 500 hours than it would in the car, and so they wear out far faster.

If the brushes get short enough they pop out of their holder and the little spring behind them runs on the slip ring, arcing madly and burning the slip ring out in very short order. Now you're replacing the entire alternator.

The older starters (like the Prestolites) have a removable brush inspection cover on them. The newer permanent-magnet starters don't, and they're designed to last to TBO. Even in the flight school, with its frequent starts, the PM starters lasted well.

And exhaust! In Canada we have an AD that applies to any airplane that get cabin heat off the exhaust system, and we are supposed to take the heat shroud off the pipe or muffler and closely check the exhaust system for cracks that will let monoxide into the cabin. Any questionable areas are to be pressure checked, and we used to do the pressure check anyway. Low pressure and soapy water. Didn't take long and was much more reliable than just eyeballing the thing. Still, some airplanes don't get looked at too well, and horror stories occasionally arise.

Some exhaust systems are prone to cracking. The 172's lycomings like to crack their exhaust stacks just below the exhaust port on the cylinder, and the muffler is prone to cracking around the stack connections. The turbo 210s have their own AD against some models for 50-hour checks on the exhaust. Turbos are hard on exhaust systems. Looking at the exhaust was one of the first things I did after getting the oil draining and so on. Cracked parts meant getting stuff ordered right away.

Looking closely at stuff during annuals is never fun. It's boring. But it's what a mechanic is paid to do.
 
Yup. I'm always amazed at the number of times I've read of alternator failures (and the occasional starter) on this site. Alternator brushes are supposed to be checked periodically, but it means removing the alternator and opening it. In the flight school most alternators got checked every 500 hours, and the brushes were shot at 1000-1200, so they got replaced at the second 500-hour check. In the G1000 172 I found them 3/4 gone at the first 500, a reflection of the extra load placed on it to drive all the avionics and stuff. I started checking them at 300 hours.

So, some guys will say, why should an airplane's alternator wear out its brushes so fast when the alternator in my car lasts for many years and miles? Well, an alternator is designed to reach its redline at the same time the engine reaches its redline, and redline represents max production capacity for the alternator. The car's engine redlines at 6000 or whatever, and it almost never gets there and when it does it isn't there very long. The airplane's alternator has a much larger pulley driving it, or it has a gearset inside the engine to drive it, and the engine can be at or near redline for very long periods. A 2700 RPM engine is often cruised at 2500, or 93% of its designed max, and so is the alternator at that high percentage, while the car's alternator might be running at 35% or so. Those little brushes are covering a lot more linear feet of slip ring movement in an airplane's 500 hours than it would in the car, and so they wear out far faster.

If the brushes get short enough they pop out of their holder and the little spring behind them runs on the slip ring, arcing madly and burning the slip ring out in very short order. Now you're replacing the entire alternator.

The older starters (like the Prestolites) have a removable brush inspection cover on them. The newer permanent-magnet starters don't, and they're designed to last to TBO. Even in the flight school, with its frequent starts, the PM starters lasted well.

And exhaust! In Canada we have an AD that applies to any airplane that get cabin heat off the exhaust system, and we are supposed to take the heat shroud off the pipe or muffler and closely check the exhaust system for cracks that will let monoxide into the cabin. Any questionable areas are to be pressure checked, and we used to do the pressure check anyway. Low pressure and soapy water. Didn't take long and was much more reliable than just eyeballing the thing. Still, some airplanes don't get looked at too well, and horror stories occasionally arise.

Some exhaust systems are prone to cracking. The 172's lycomings like to crack their exhaust stacks just below the exhaust port on the cylinder, and the muffler is prone to cracking around the stack connections. The turbo 210s have their own AD against some models for 50-hour checks on the exhaust. Turbos are hard on exhaust systems. Looking at the exhaust was one of the first things I did after getting the oil draining and so on. Cracked parts meant getting stuff ordered right away.

Looking closely at stuff during annuals is never fun. It's boring. But it's what a mechanic is paid to do.

Thanks for being one of the good ones, and caring.
I've been very happy with the shop I use, it is a small place with only two people, they co-own it, and truly care. A while ago I sent the 520 that's been sitting in my garage for many years, after replacing it in my Bonanza, with a factory new engine, away to the factory for a full rebuild. Come January while I go away on Vacation, my plane goes in for not just an annual, but basically a rebuild, the engine that will be coming out surpassed TBO long ago and is on condition. It's still running perfectly, but I deem it time for a fresh engine anyway, and I already have the new goodies that attach to it, everything basically, including a new exhaust system. I have many boxes, and the engine should be back soon, and my new prop. Screwing around with maintenance to me is just as bad as flying drunk and blindfolded...it is dangerous!
 
Some of those parts almost look like they are taking a jet of exhaust gas; that nut almost looks all sooted up?
That's aluminum "smoke." When aluminum parts fret against other aluminum parts or steel parts, aluminum powder is the result, and it ozidizes real quick into that black dust. You can sometimes see it on the outside of an airplane, a streak of black behind a rivet head that shows that the rivet is loose and vibrating or the aluminum skin is grinding against it as air loads pull at it. The airflow pulls the dust aft, making the streak.

smoking-rivets-small-225x300.jpg
 
very familiar with smoking rivets and aluminum oxidization, it's the pattern that caught my attention, Dan. Thanks.
 
I bet the hose from the muff to the heat box has fallen off.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR PARTICIPATION IN THIS FORUM!

A few days ago I helped my mechanic do my Powerflo exhaust inspection. It was raining afterwards so a post maintenance flight check was not done until today. I noted on run up that there was no RPM drop. I posted my own question about this and have been reading. As soon as I saw this response, I knew it was what the problem was.


I am a new pilot and love being involved in the maintenance. When my mechanic took the orange hose off the one box, he bent it up out of the way. This hose was not reconnected before we closed up! I was there for everything and would not have been triggered to recognize this was the issue without you posting this years ago. I figure a measure of thanks was required! I likely would have been weary for a while, spoke to my mechanic, or even gotten a response about this issue. But, I also might have flown into a carb ice situation and had bad things happen. So,

THANK YOU!
 
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