Appeals Court: Cirrus not responsible for plane crash that killed two

Proper result.
 
Looks like the appeals court got it right; at least based on my recollection of product liability law.

The dissenting justice is off base IMO. A contract to train does not give rise to a tort claim if and when the student fails in real life. If the dissenting justice had his way his rule would put a financial premium on being a C student. That obviously ain't right.
 
I read the decision this morning and found the descriptive part about the structure of flight training and the facts of the case to be very well written. I wonder whether the judge (or his clerk) who authored it is in fact a pilot.

I guess after this decision I can't sue my math teacher for the fact that I can't balance a cheque book ;).
 
I read the decision this morning and found the descriptive part about the structure of flight training and the facts of the case to be very well written. I wonder whether the judge (or his clerk) who authored it is in fact a pilot. . . .

The facts are generally copied from the litigants' filings. They are the ones with the experts.

At least that's what my old lady tells me. She's the litigator in the family. As a patent attorney I have to write all my stuff from scratch. By definition there isn't anything to copy from when it comes to inventions. :cornut:
 
I think it only shows that there is a limit what a typical jury can decide. Give them a case with fair amount of technical issues and they completely get it wrong. Good outcome.
 
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This stuff makes me sick... that there would even be a credible debate as to whether Cirrus should be held liable or not.
Let's see this start to happen with cars. That's right, every traffic fatality or accident gets investigated by a federal agency and then lawsuits start rolling in against everybody. The car manufacturer, the driver(s), the driving school, the local government (for failure to post appropriate warning signs, or whatever the tort bar comes up with), the manufacturers of the component parts of the car, the airbag manufacturers whose devices failed to prevent the death: Everybody. Driving a car would become a massive liability. The economy would suffer massively, and new car prices would skyrocket because of liability costs.
Then the public would scream for tort reform, because most people drive cars and can understand that "accidents just happen sometimes" in cars. Right now, with aviation, it's sort of a "beggar thy neighbor" approach to dealing with the "rich people" flying "dangerous" GA planes. This type of story just really makes me upset.
I'm happy the Cirrus won, though. I just wish that it would lead to some broader victory for GA liability reduction, but I don't think it will.
 
It does happen with cars all day, every day.
Really? Someone snuffs it in a car and then the next of kin gets 12 million bucks? And that happens frequently?
Maybe you're right, but I'd think that if that truly happened every day then we'd hear about it in the news a lot more. And I haven't heard about it. (Which is not to say it doesn't happen, of course.)
 
Really? Someone snuffs it in a car and then the next of kin gets 12 million bucks? And that happens frequently?
Maybe you're right, but I'd think that if that truly happened every day then we'd hear about it in the news a lot more. And I haven't heard about it. (Which is not to say it doesn't happen, of course.)

That's so sarcastic and unfounded it doesn't even deserve a response. The plaintiffs next of kin in the Cirrus case didn't get $12M.
 
Really? Someone snuffs it in a car and then the next of kin gets 12 million bucks? And that happens frequently?
Maybe you're right, but I'd think that if that truly happened every day then we'd hear about it in the news a lot more. And I haven't heard about it. (Which is not to say it doesn't happen, of course.)

Double-digit millions are fairly common. At least in terms of verdicts. In terms of actual recoveries - well, that depends on the judgment debtor's ability to pay (and/or the limits of his insurance policy). I can say that I'm awarding you $100M, but if the defendant only has $100K in the bank, that's all you're getting.

Statistically, I have no doubt that they're anomalies - the great majority of cases out there are measured by thousands, not millions. Regardless, <1% of a gigantic sample is still a large number.
 
Double-digit millions are fairly common. At least in terms of verdicts. In terms of actual recoveries - well, that depends on the judgment debtor's ability to pay (and/or the limits of his insurance policy). I can say that I'm awarding you $100M, but if the defendant only has $100K in the bank, that's all you're getting.

Statistically, I have no doubt that they're anomalies - the great majority of cases out there are measured by thousands, not millions. Regardless, <1% of a gigantic sample is still a large number.
That's why the manufacturers are named in the lawsuit whenever possible, much deeper pockets. A drunk driver rear ends a Chevy Malibu and it unbelievably bursts into flames and GM is responsible.

http://www.psandb.com/case-anderson-gm.html

http://www.psandb.com/private_plane_crash_attorneys.html#landmarkresults
 
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I guess after this decision I can't sue my math teacher for the fact that I can't balance a cheque book ;).

You could, however, sue your English teacher for failing to teach you how to spell the word "check."
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:thumbsup:
 
That's so sarcastic and unfounded it doesn't even deserve a response. The plaintiffs next of kin in the Cirrus case didn't get $12M.
I wasn't intending to come off as sarcastic, and I'm sorry if I did. Also, the quote from the story says that "A jury awarded Kosak's next of kin $7.4 million and Prokop's next of kin $12 million."
That's what I was going from. I just haven't heard of a case where a private car crashed and a jury awarded 19.4M in damages.
And my original point was about the perceived exoticism of airplanes, and how I think that exoticism translates into stupidly huge jury findings in tort cases.
Perhaps you disagree.
 
I wasn't intending to come off as sarcastic, and I'm sorry if I did. Also, the quote from the story says that "A jury awarded Kosak's next of kin $7.4 million and Prokop's next of kin $12 million."
That's what I was going from. I just haven't heard of a case where a private car crashed and a jury awarded 19.4M in damages.
And my original point was about the perceived exoticism of airplanes, and how I think that exoticism translates into stupidly huge jury findings in tort cases.
Perhaps you disagree.

The Cirrus verdict was overturned. That's the point of this thread. The award was zero, not $12M.

The automotive verdicts are out there, too. Maybe I'm more sensitive to them as a Detroiter. Off the top of my head the Ford/Firestone tire cases and GM side-saddle fuel tank case come to mind. I don't recall the numbers for the Ford/Firestone cases but some of them probably came out of the trial court at $1M+. The GM case came out at $101M+. That's not a typo.
 
The Cirrus verdict was overturned. That's the point of this thread. The award was zero, not $12M.

The automotive verdicts are out there, too. Maybe I'm more sensitive to them as a Detroiter. Off the top of my head the Ford/Firestone tire cases and GM side-saddle fuel tank case come to mind. I don't recall the numbers for the Ford/Firestone cases but some of them probably came out of the trial court at $1M+. The GM case came out at $101M+. That's not a typo.

Speaking of fuel tanks, there were a bunch of judgements against Ford over the Pinto - not sure what Ford ended up paying out, though. And there's some current litigation over the Police Interceptor Crown Vics, IIRC.
 
The Cirrus verdict was overturned. That's the point of this thread. The award was zero, not $12M.

The automotive verdicts are out there, too. Maybe I'm more sensitive to them as a Detroiter. Off the top of my head the Ford/Firestone tire cases and GM side-saddle fuel tank case come to mind. I don't recall the numbers for the Ford/Firestone cases but some of them probably came out of the trial court at $1M+. The GM case came out at $101M+. That's not a typo.

But how many times are Ford, GM, Chrysler sued for "normal" accidents for not training the new owners? While this Cirrus incident was overturned I don't hear about the big three getting sued because someone blew through a T intersection and wrapped themselves around a tree (CDIT), but the aircraft manufacturers (or carb manufacturers) do get named if someone goes IMC and wraps themselves around a tree.

That's the difference.
 
Speaking of fuel tanks, there were a bunch of judgements against Ford over the Pinto - not sure what Ford ended up paying out, though. And there's some current litigation over the Police Interceptor Crown Vics, IIRC.

Those are also demonstrated issues across the fleet. (See my above post)
 
But how many times are Ford, GM, Chrysler sued for "normal" accidents for not training the new owners? While this Cirrus incident was overturned I don't hear about the big three getting sued because someone blew through a T intersection and wrapped themselves around a tree (CDIT), but the aircraft manufacturers (or carb manufacturers) do get named if someone goes IMC and wraps themselves around a tree.

That's the difference.

Those kinds of lawsuits happen all the time. I saw it firsthand in the legal department of a Big Three US automaker.

Even as a kid in high school I saw it. One of my buddies died when he wrapped his new Trans Am nose first around a tree. Later in the newspaper I learned that a product liability theory, namely defective welds, was asserted as a cause of his death. It was a silly theory IMO, but there it was.
 
But how many times are Ford, GM, Chrysler sued for "normal" accidents for not training the new owners? While this Cirrus incident was overturned I don't hear about the big three getting sued because someone blew through a T intersection and wrapped themselves around a tree (CDIT), but the aircraft manufacturers (or carb manufacturers) do get named if someone goes IMC and wraps themselves around a tree.

That's the difference.

Neither Ford, GM, or Chrysler provide training for drivers of their products. Cirrus does. Paul Bertorelli has blog post up at AvWeb putting this in the 'no good deed goes unpunished' category.
 
Neither Ford, GM, or Chrysler provide training for drivers of their products. Cirrus does. Paul Bertorelli has blog post up at AvWeb putting this in the 'no good deed goes unpunished' category.

It IS kind of ironic that in the setting of this particular suit they would have been better off doing it like Cessna in the 'good old days' when the salesman would take you up for a lap around the pattern when you traded in your 172 for a 210 and cut you loose for the cross-country trip home.
 
But how many times are Ford, GM, Chrysler sued for "normal" accidents for not training the new owners? While this Cirrus incident was overturned I don't hear about the big three getting sued because someone blew through a T intersection and wrapped themselves around a tree (CDIT), but the aircraft manufacturers (or carb manufacturers) do get named if someone goes IMC and wraps themselves around a tree.

That's the difference.

Different standard of performance?

The auto industry has developed automatic parallel-parking devices that two years ago were the exclusive province of Lexus drivers, but are now available in a Ford Escape.

There are plenty of old Comanches that have handbrake levers. There are plenty of Comanches that have toe brakes on the pilot's side and nothing but rudder pedals on the passenger side. Not a fair comparison.

How many GA singles have anti-lock brakes?
 
It IS kind of ironic that in the setting of this particular suit they would have been better off doing it like Cessna in the 'good old days' when the salesman would take you up for a lap around the pattern when you traded in your 172 for a 210 and cut you loose for the cross-country trip home.

If you show up at the local Ford dealer with a used F-150, they're not about to talk you out of trading up to a F-350.

In the good old days, the local Cessna salesman would do the same thing. Your kidding yourself if you think any 172 owner got denied their 210 except for a credit check.
 
That's why the manufacturers are named in the lawsuit whenever possible, much deeper pockets. A drunk driver rear ends a Chevy Malibu and it unbelievably bursts into flames and GM is responsible.

http://www.psandb.com/case-anderson-gm.html

http://www.psandb.com/private_plane_crash_attorneys.html#landmarkresults

Yup.

People with a significant number of assets will occasionally ask about "liability planning." Worried about things like car accidents and looking like targets. It's a legitimate concern. Fancy legal stuff is great and can be very useful in the right circumstances, but I usually tell people that they're best off with a good insurance policy from a reputable company.

... I just haven't heard of a case where a private car crashed and a jury awarded 19.4M in damages.
....

I have firsthand knowledge of a few car accidents with damages in this range (I'd prefer not to go into details). Statistically, they're very rare, but again, think about how many lawsuits are filed - means that they're fairly common.

In tort law, there are a few principal forms of damage that are calculated (keep in mind that this is fairly general). First are "economic damages" - medical expenses, wages lost in the past or in the future, etc. Depending on who and what you've got (let's say the CEO for Coca-Cola with grievous injuries who can never work again and who had 20 years of work left before him), you've got a potentially huge number here. These damages could also be called "OK, you ----ed me up, do what you can to fix me" - we call them "economic" because we can easily put a number on them (i.e., I made $X/year, and I wasn't able to work for a year, so you owe me $X).

Second are "noneconomic damages" - pain and suffering, loss of enjoyment of life, loss of consortium (isn't that a nice, polite, term for it), etc. These can also be large, but you don't really see them until you get into very serious injuries or death. Obviously, these damages are a lot harder to put a number on and, despite everything we hear in the news, juries generally don't give out very high numbers in this category.

Third are punitive damages. Many, if not most, jurisdictions have severely restricted these (no more than $250K, or no more than what is awarded in "actual" damages, etc.).

But, these days, in my experience, in personal injury law most of your damages are going to come from the economic category. And, chances are that it will be insurance companies suing each other under the names of their insureds, rather than the individuals suing each other. As in, if you run me over and my insurance pays me benefits, my insurance company might turn around and sue your insurance company to recoup that amount. Although we might be the named parties, you and I would really be more like witnesses in that case - we wouldn't be calling the shots, and we might actually not want there to be lawsuits at all.

You'll hear about things like daughters suing mothers after car accidents - chances are that this is the daughter's health ins. co. suing Mom's auto. ins. co.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, but I hope it sheds a little light.
 
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People with a significant number of assets will occasionally ask about "liability planning." Worried about things like car accidents and looking like targets. It's a legitimate concern. Fancy legal stuff is great and can be very useful in the right circumstances, but I usually tell people that they're best off with a good insurance policy from a reputable company.

That's the thing. I can cover 99.9% of automotive claims through a liability umbrella for relatively little money. As a private pilot, I can't buy that level of coverage for an aircraft even for a lot of money.
 
That's the thing. I can cover 99.9% of automotive claims through a liability umbrella for relatively little money. As a private pilot, I can't buy that level of coverage for an aircraft even for a lot of money.

Don't take this personally, but you're probably a better driver than you are a pilot. At least compared to the risk pools you're put into.

You always have the ability to fly without hull or liability coverage, as long as you're not a renter.
 
You always have the ability to fly without hull or liability coverage, as long as you're not a renter.
Interesting, I did not know it. Is it true, no matter what state? I assume that would be true as long as the aircraft is paid for because otherwise a lender would require me to purchase hull insurance.
 
You always have the ability to fly without hull or liability coverage, as long as you're not a renter.

Why would I want to do that ? It would put my modest net-worth immediately at risk (on the liability side) and I would stand to risk a lot more than I am comfortable with on the hull side.

Yes, I can buy insurance on a plane. I just cant buy an amount of insurance I would be comfortable with.
 
Interesting, I did not know it. Is it true, no matter what state? I assume that would be true as long as the aircraft is paid for because otherwise a lender would require me to purchase hull insurance.

I don't know of any state that has the aviation version of an SR-22 law.

A lender may require you to have hull insurance, but that's not a statutory requirement. Bank of Amerika could require you to wear a pink thong every time you slip the surly bonds of earth, and as long as you sign their loan docs, you have to play by their rules. They could also require you to take off with an I-Pad, which depending on your manliness could be even worse than the pink thong requirement.
 
Why would I want to do that ? It would put my modest net-worth immediately at risk (on the liability side) and I would stand to risk a lot more than I am comfortable with on the hull side.

Yes, I can buy insurance on a plane. I just cant buy an amount of insurance I would be comfortable with.

That's a classic, "can't do the crime, don't do the time" argument.
 
Different standard of performance?

Not at all. In neither example was it about lacking performance or ability of the vehicle. It was about lacking performance of the driver/pilot. Anti-lock brakes don't mean anything if you don't attempt to engage them.
 
Don't take this personally, but you're probably a better driver than you are a pilot. At least compared to the risk pools you're put into.

You always have the ability to fly without hull or liability coverage, as long as you're not a renter.
You can opt out of hull coverage if no lienholder requires it but many if not most states require liability insurance to some level for all private aircraft owners. And personally I believe that whether or not liability coverage is legally required there's a moral imperative to have at least a minimal amount.
 
You could, however, sue your English teacher for failing to teach you how to spell the word "check."
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:thumbsup:

Weilke is likely not a US American. "Cheque" is the correct spelling in Canada and the UK, and probably most of the rest of the Commonwealth.

Dan
 
You could, however, sue your English teacher for failing to teach you how to spell the word "check."
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:thumbsup:

Actually, you should actually do so...your English teacher misinformed you as to the proper spelling of cheque.
 
Weilke is likely not a US American. "Cheque" is the correct spelling in Canada and the UK, and probably most of the rest of the Commonwealth.

Dan

I know. We've been through this before with other poorly-educated folks on the board. I find they are most often Canadian.
 
I know. We've been through this before with other poorly-educated folks on the board. I find they are most often Canadian.
The British empire is no longer the centre of the universe. :D
 
I know. We've been through this before with other poorly-educated folks on the board. I find they are most often Canadian.

Let me draw you a map:

The language is called "English". The word English derives from the word "England". England is a country that occupies the south (with the exception of the the western portion composed of Wales) of the island of Great Britain.

In this country of England, an instrument instructing your bank to pay a third party out of funds that you have on deposit therein is called a "cheque".
:cornut:
 
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