AOPA Pilot Town Hall Meeting

955

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Robbie Culver (955)
Okay, I must have missed the post...

Went to the meeting - nice to meet a couple of you there. Our group from UGN was well-represented. Stick & Rudder "south" with about 14 of us total.

As usual, great to see Phil talk and reminds me we have the right man fighting for us...
 
Mike made sure his voice was heard! He was sitting in the front row and was the one that Phil happened to call on to speak about why their flying activities had been severely curtailed.

Mike and I were a little bummed that Phil didn't get together with the ASN volunteers for dinner beforehand like he has in the past. This is the first time I've had them use the electronic polling devices. During the Q&A afterward, he seemed to give reasonable answers; not just promising the moon. When someone asked about decreasing the size of the Presidential TFR, Phil said something to the extent of "yeah, it'd be nice, but it's not something we're going to concentrate on in the next year or two."

There was some of the usual User Fee talk, but they also talked about the cost of fuel, security restrictions, environmental concerns, and a few other topics. Didn't hear him say much (or anything) about the English proficiency, ethanol in mogas, or specifically about the TSA requirements to check in, though he certainly alluded to the latter topic.


On a positive note, Phil seemed very interested in getting more pilots out there. They actually gave away a free flight lesson to all the non-pilots who hadn't already had a flight lesson or gotten their student pilot certificate. (They had promoted the Project Pilot aspect of the meeting and took prospective students into another room.)
 
I brought up the "we can't hear you" Chicago approach. I'm going to brief the air traffic rep to at least get the FAA to deny what we all know - the hostility is there and we have the worst service in the country.
 
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I brought up the "we can't hear you" Chicago approach. I'm going to brief the air traffic rep to at least get the FAA to deny what we all know - the hostility is there and have the worst service in the country.

Mike

I was sitting behind you one row to your left. Part of the UGN gang.

Do have to say, I am not experiencing the same problem. When I've requested flight following they do answer, and only say no on peak times. When I've been IFR I've gotten decent treatment, fair routing, and nthing I'd complain about.

YYMV obviously based on your feedback - but I am glad you raised it at the meeting - it may make AOPA at least think about it...

I'm still trying to arrange an Operation Raincheck visit, but no luck so far...
 
I was at the meeting also and for the most part, have to agree with Robbie. ATC will always answer, but not necessarily provide the service requested (VFR flight following). IFR they have to provide service (not necessarily honor a specific routing request).

That said, although I've experienced few problems, I must agree that during peek periods, ATC service in the Chicago area (VFR/IFR) can be less than friendly.
 
I was at the meeting also and for the most part, have to agree with Robbie. ATC will always answer, but not necessarily provide the service requested (VFR flight following). IFR they have to provide service (not necessarily honor a specific routing request).

That said, although I've experienced few problems, I must agree that during peek periods, ATC service in the Chicago area (VFR/IFR) can be less than friendly.

Oddly enough, I get the route I request when I leave UGN south to EON (Peotone) when headed east from the area. I know many will go VFR down the lakefront and pick it up at Gary, I prefer not to go down the lakefront. (Especially when Joshua Bean is in the back in his car seat!)

Coming back - different story. File what I want, always get "955, are you ready to copy your new clearance?" when I am around South Bend, or sooner.

And invariably it is EON - JOT - Radar Vectors to UGN. Almost every time it's between ARR and DPA then north before they give me the heading into UGN.

I know many others disagree, some strongly, but as busy as they are, I think I am treated fairly and try to see both sides of it.

My 2 cents (or less).
 
I was at the meeting also and for the most part, have to agree with Robbie. ATC will always answer, but not necessarily provide the service requested (VFR flight following). IFR they have to provide service (not necessarily honor a specific routing request).

That said, although I've experienced few problems, I must agree that during peek periods, ATC service in the Chicago area (VFR/IFR) can be less than friendly.

Less than friendly? It's institutional hostility.

There were reports that C90 doesn't even know how to handle VFRs. A VFR into O'Hare was told to talk to tower who told the plane it had to talk to approach and this went on for several cycles.

When Bruce was sent into the Class B without clearance, he told them he needed "the magic words." and got "I have magic words. Squawk VFR remain clear of Class Bravo." When he called he heard them say "that ^%&* is on the phone."

You know. We just don't understand.
 
Less than friendly? It's institutional hostility.

There were reports that C90 doesn't even know how to handle VFRs. A VFR into O'Hare was told to talk to tower who told the plane it had to talk to approach and this went on for several cycles.

When Bruce was sent into the Class B without clearance, he told them he needed "the magic words." and got "I have magic words. Squawk VFR remain clear of Class Bravo." When he called he heard them say "that ^%&* is on the phone."

You know. We just don't understand.
One of the few times I got FF I got a vector into bravo. I was happy, it would shorten my trip but to make sure I asked 'verify cleared into bravo'. I then got an earful form the controller about when he gives me a vector it is an implied clearance, yadda, yadda, yadaa. I think someone heard him and corrected him because before I even had a chance to just acknowledge (all I was going to do) he said 'but of course you are right to verify if VFR'.

Last week I was in a flight of two on the lake front. Aircraft 1 mile ahead got FF, so I tried, got 'unable' then he was dropped less than a minute later.

The only reliable FF on the lake front is from Midway tower and Gary Tower.

For IFR I have only gotten a ground hold a couple of times. On that respect they are pretty good. clearance is always south to EON at 3000. Returning it is the EON to JOT to DPA route.

C90 is understaffed. They use that as their excuse to not do FF. But what they should be doing is not making GA mad but getting us on their side to get more staffing so that they can also handle FF. It would make the whole airspace safer.
 
VFR from 10C or 3CK, I have always ( 8 or 10 times) gotten courteous service from C90. That said, the most pleasant and most useful service has always been from Midway controllers. ( even when north of Navy pier)
PWK can either be very crabby or very pleasant, nothing in between.
 
I'm still trying to arrange an Operation Raincheck visit, but no luck so far...
Who are you trying to visit? ZAU, C90, ORD tower? I may be able to get you talking to someone who could help. If you want MDW tower, Mike Dreger may be able to put you in touch with the right person. If you want ZAU, ApacheBob may be able to help, too.
 
Do have to say, I am not experiencing the same problem. When I've requested flight following they do answer, and only say no on peak times.

The *only* time I've ever gotten flight following from C90 was at midnight on a Sunday night.

Rumor has it they've been much more accommodating recently, but only because the newbie trainee controllers are getting all the VFR's on a separate frequency to practice. :hairraise:

ATC will always answer, but not necessarily provide the service requested (VFR flight following). IFR they have to provide service (not necessarily honor a specific routing request).

No, and no, and no.

I've had them not answer at all a couple times. Usually they will at least say unable, but as noted above, the only off-peak time they seem to have is at midnight on a Sunday.

Oh, and they don't *have* to provide IFR service unless you're taking off or landing inside their airspace. Those of us from outside their airspace get routed way out and around so that we never talk to them. For example - MSN-LOM is 655nm. Going via the south end of the lake to stay over land is 683. Going via the normal eastbound routing we get out of Madison, via KELSI, is 731. 50nm out of my way because C90 won't talk to me either VFR or IFR except Sundays at midnight. Even reasonable routings like V177 (MSN-JVL-JOT) that stay out of the Bravo are refused.

Midnight on a different Sunday was also the ONLY time I've gotten an IFR clearance that took me into C90 airspace - And I mean, the part where you talk to them, not the Bravo itself. (Clarification: I did get cleared direct MSN from over VPZ, which took me through the Bravo at 6,000 feet directly over the top of ORD - But that's the only time I've ever even talked to Chicago Approach IFR, as normally Center will route us so that C90 never talks to us).

There were reports that C90 doesn't even know how to handle VFRs. A VFR into O'Hare was told to talk to tower who told the plane it had to talk to approach and this went on for several cycles.

Two experienced pilots, in fact, one of whom was being flown to ORD to pick up a Citation that was there. Approach->Tower->Approach->Tower->Approach->Tower, 6 different frequencies, until finally the last Tower controller called up C90 and told them what to do. (I bet it was Dean, who has worked OSH a number of times...) But, of course, this was a VFR *into ORD* which probably doesn't happen much.

Yes, I know they're busy and understaffed - But so is the rest of the world, and I've been cleared into every other Bravo I've ever asked.
 
Who are you trying to visit? ZAU, C90, ORD tower? I may be able to get you talking to someone who could help. If you want MDW tower, Mike Dreger may be able to put you in touch with the right person. If you want ZAU, ApacheBob may be able to help, too.

"Yes.":yes:

In order of preference C90, ZAU, and ORD. Call me greedy.

Well - interesting conversation and it goes to prove there is no one consistent answer. We fly under around and near the Class Bravo - part of life here, like it or not.
 
Government service at its best. :rolleyes:
 
From my experience, I'd like to think times are changing....:dunno::yes:
In roughly 15 tries, they only couldn't hear me once. That is between the above mentioned 126.8 VFR position, and 119.35/133.5 even at 6PM on a Thursday.....

Of course, now that I said that, I'll never get service again, but times could be changing....:fcross:



Purdue
 
OK, I give. What the hell is C90? :dunno: AirNav doesn't know either.


I believe "C90" is the FAA's internal designator for Chicago Approach.
 
"Yes.":yes:

In order of preference C90, ZAU, and ORD. Call me greedy.

Well - interesting conversation and it goes to prove there is no one consistent answer. We fly under around and near the Class Bravo - part of life here, like it or not.
See your PM. I'd be interested in touring either C90 or ORD myself.
 
I believe "C90" is the FAA's internal designator for Chicago Approach.
Yes, C90 is Chicago TRACON (Approach). ZAU is Chicago ARTCC (Center). (AU stands for Aurora, where the town where it is located.)
 
IFR they have to provide service (not necessarily honor a specific routing request).

The *only* time I've ever gotten flight following from C90 was at midnight on a Sunday night.

Oh, and they don't *have* to provide IFR service unless you're taking off or landing inside their airspace. Those of us from outside their airspace get routed way out and around so that we never talk to them. For example - MSN-LOM is 655nm. Going via the south end of the lake to stay over land is 683. Going via the normal eastbound routing we get out of Madison, via KELSI, is 731. 50nm out of my way because C90 won't talk to me either VFR or IFR except Sundays at midnight. Even reasonable routings like V177 (MSN-JVL-JOT) that stay out of the Bravo are refused.
They don't have to provide any service. I have a friend in a King Air who went to pick up his IFR clearance in the air and was told "unable". (http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=201066&postcount=19)

I sometimes get flight following from C90, but more likely I don't try until I'm out by RFD. Last year I was having trouble with my XPDR leaving RFD. They couldn't read it, but I got flight following from them based on primary and they handed me off to Chicago, who allowed me into the 30NM ring. They were eventually able to pick up the XPDR around Aurora.

After 11PM I've been known to actually get cleared into ORD Class B, so it doesn't surprise me that you were able to get FF then.
 
Grant - thanks! I also tried a guy from NATCA whose card I had on file from an AOPA seminar in Northbrook. I'll let you know if it works.

RFD is infamous for bad XPNDR reception - I was told (at that same AOPA seminar) that their equipment is the oldest in Illinois. They complain about my transponder almost every time I work with them - same as when I transition DPA from north to south down the Rt 59 flyway at 2500. Seems to be some shadow there...
 
Grant - thanks! I also tried a guy from NATCA whose card I had on file from an AOPA seminar in Northbrook. I'll let you know if it works.
Jeff Richards at ZAU?
RFD is infamous for bad XPNDR reception - I was told (at that same AOPA seminar) that their equipment is the oldest in Illinois. They complain about my transponder almost every time I work with them - same as when I transition DPA from north to south down the Rt 59 flyway at 2500. Seems to be some shadow there...

The shadow is probably from the big hills we have out there. Not!:rofl:
 
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