anyone skilled at stone masonry? Give me some tips, ideas

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docmirror

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I've got this house that is pretty boring. I'm thinking of doing some flagstone walls up to about 8 feet, and then cap it with cedar T&G to the roof line. I can do the T&G no prob, although I'm getting a bit old to work on the ladder, but I've never done a bit of stone work.

http://www.ccsand.com/products/landscape-materials-a-supplies/flagstone

Looking at the Arizona moss, or the Grand Canyon to give plenty of color variation. Above that will be the med grade Cedar.

Is the stuff supported by any kind of steel framework? I'm going over simple ext grade siding. Do I need to use something to hold the stone up while the mortar sets? How thick do I put the mortar on the back side?

I'm guessing I have to do maybe a 2' layer at a time and let it set so there's no sag. I'm also guessing that I have to be careful about the grouting mix for the gaps, but I really don't have much of a clue.

If you've done vertical flagstone, and can give me some of the 'gotchas' that would be swell. I may wind up just hiring a guy, but I'll see if I can't do it myself. Pretty sure I could do the first layer about 2' up, but I want to go all the way to the top of a std garage height of 7' 10".
 
Google it and you'll find perfect instructions along with pictures. It's absolutely as easy as it looks. 10-12 years ago I put some manufactured (artificial) stone up going by those instructions (and w/ some over-the-phone help of a mason) and it worked great. If you're taking off existing siding, or going over it, you start by nailing on the felt paper. Then you nail on wire mesh for support. With the mesh use a lot of nails (w/ plastic washers), every 5" or so. Unlike laying real masonry, with the faux stone you start at the top and work your way down. With the heavier real stone you will start at the bottom, so make sure you have solid support. As for the thickness of mixing the mortar, just mix it per the instructions, i.e. cake batter thickness. You already know that it dries out fairly quickly so what you put on first is much thinner than the mortar you're scraping from the bottom of the bucket.
 
You will need some metal strips called wall ties. About 1" x6". You nail them through the sheathing into the studs behind and bend them into an "L" shape, so one end is nailed to he structure, the other is sunk into the mortar between the stones, tieing to the structure when the mortar sets. If you are facing a non-masonry wall, no need to load extra mortar behind the veneer.

Speaking of mortar, the consistency you want is like peanut butter. Take a trowel and make a squiggle. If it stays, you're about right, if it fills in, it's too wet. Give the mix time to "slake", that is absorb and distribute the water.

Get a good supply of sawdust.works great for rubbing off the errant mortar off the face of the stone.
With real stone, only work vertically 4 feet at a time before you let the mortar set up overnight. You don't want to squeeze the mortar out of the lower courses. It's kind of fun, like building a giant jigsaw.

I did masonry work summers in college.
Do yourself a favor. Rent a mortar mixer, or hire a helper.
 
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For across the top of the garage door openings, you'll need some heavy angle steel, or lintels, to rest your stone on. Build each side up level, rest the stell on it, then lag bolt it to the structure.
 
I'm just going to do the verticals of the side of the door, not across the top. The top will be cedar right down the three uprights.

I'm wondering how I chose the fit of the stone as I go for a proper gap. I guess I need to chip and prepare some stone before I start the mortar to make it fit right.
 
you cannot possibly be a stone expert unless you spell and pronounce it "masonary".

:)

Other than that, I can offer very little advice in addition to what was offered above.
 
wire mesh....not wire ties.....

I'd start with a vapor barrior....then tack up a wire mesh and parge the wall....then apply the flag stone to the parged wall.
 
Yeah, the pics I got show wire mesh with a standoff nail holding out. Then a layer of mortar with that notched trowel run horizontal to create a bonding surface. Then the stone with a gob of mortar on the back. I don't know how thick to make the gob of mortar on the back. Some say thinner is stronger than thick, and that the stone should be damp and other sites say to use a donut blob with a hole for vacuum in the middle. Sounds complicated. I guess some trial and error is in the plan.
 
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docmirror said:
I've got this house that is pretty boring. I'm thinking of doing some flagstone walls up to about 8 feet, and then cap it with cedar T&G to the roof line. I can do the T&G no prob, although I'm getting a bit old to work on the ladder, but I've never done a bit of stone work.

http://www.ccsand.com/products/landscape-materials-a-supplies/flagstone

Looking at the Arizona moss, or the Grand Canyon to give plenty of color variation. Above that will be the med grade Cedar.

Is the stuff supported by any kind of steel framework? I'm going over simple ext grade siding. Do I need to use something to hold the stone up while the mortar sets? How thick do I put the mortar on the back side?

I'm guessing I have to do maybe a 2' layer at a time and let it set so there's no sag. I'm also guessing that I have to be careful about the grouting mix for the gaps, but I really don't have much of a clue.

If you've done vertical flagstone, and can give me some of the 'gotchas' that would be swell. I may wind up just hiring a guy, but I'll see if I can't do it myself. Pretty sure I could do the first layer about 2' up, but I want to go all the way to the top of a std garage height of 7' 10".
Click to expand...

Pretty sure C&C is the place I got flagstone for a backyard patio in the mid 90's for a house I used to own up in Teller County.

Wow, that brings back memories. I loved that home (was my first house)...
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Wait a minute, are talking about real stone, stone tile or the fake stuff? Ain't no way real 2" thick random flagstone is sticking to the wall with a parged mesh. Sounds like you're talking about stone tile or fake stuff. The stuff you use for floors isn't the stuff you use for walls.

http://www.northernstonesupply.com/products/building_stone/building_stone.html
Click to expand...

Real stone. I've been advised that the fake stuff does not hold up well in direct sunlight, and this is a SW exposure in a sunny area. Maybe this stuff?

http://www.northernstonesupply.com/...aic_full_veneer_packaged_material_photos.html

But it says 'veneer' which is confusing.
 
docmirror said:
Real stone. I've been advised that the fake stuff does not hold up well in direct sunlight, and this is a SW exposure in a sunny area. Maybe this stuff?

http://www.northernstonesupply.com/...aic_full_veneer_packaged_material_photos.html

But it says 'veneer' which is confusing.
Click to expand...

Veneer just means it's a facing and not structural. Fr'instance, brick homes today are only a single course of brick veneer surrounding a wood structure, where in the old days, real brick home walls were three or more structural courses thick.

Most of the stone walls you see are concrete block faced with 2" or more stone "veneer".
 
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One of my rentals has cement board.....parged....with the fake stuff stuck to that. And it's stayed stuck for +10 years with no cracks....and looks like the day it was stuck up. :D

And....my FIL's house has flag stone veneer...like mentioned above with the wire mesh nailed/screwed to the wood structure....and 2-3" stone stuck to the parged wall (using N brick lock mortar). ...so, your mileage may vary. :goofy:

but....those walls face the west....so...
 
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Everyone is correct if using natural stone. Wire lath "parged" as you are calling it and wall ties BOTH. It is essential to get the cement/masonry sand mix ratio correct. If it were me, I would use cultured stone as opposed to natural. If you use natural stone, set it with Portland cement. If you use cultured stone, use mortar instead. Done correctly, either product should give you years of trouble free service. Done wrong either one will fall off sooner rather that later.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
docmirror said:
I'm just going to do the verticals of the side of the door, not across the top. The top will be cedar right down the three uprights.

I'm wondering how I chose the fit of the stone as I go for a proper gap. I guess I need to chip and prepare some stone before I start the mortar to make it fit right.
Click to expand...

You might also consider a finished stone (or engineered cement) arced header over the door with keystone feature that can be plain or adorned. Whether you put stone or wood above that is still open for choice that way.
 
docmirror said:
Real stone. I've been advised that the fake stuff does not hold up well in direct sunlight, and this is a SW exposure in a sunny area. Maybe this stuff?

http://www.northernstonesupply.com/...aic_full_veneer_packaged_material_photos.html

But it says 'veneer' which is confusing.
Click to expand...

Bah, the fake stuff holds up just fine. Or at least mine has for over a decade with no sign of fading at all. And it's much lighter (less heavy) that the real stuff and the back side is textured to get maximum contact with the mortar. Stop by a shop that sells it and you can take a look in person. Around here the folks at the shops are incredibly knowledgeable and helpful. Not so much at Lowe's and HD.
 
Gerhardt said:
Bah, the fake stuff holds up just fine. Or at least mine has for over a decade with no sign of fading at all. And it's much lighter (less heavy) that the real stuff and the back side is textured to get maximum contact with the mortar. Stop by a shop that sells it and you can take a look in person. Around here the folks at the shops are incredibly knowledgeable and helpful. Not so much at Lowe's and HD.
Click to expand...

OK, I'll check it out. Maybe it's improved since the first stuff was out. I was going to use real stone, but if the fake stuff is cheaper and lighter, I can always go for that. I'm meeting a mason next week and we'll go over the choices.
 
docmirror said:
I've got this house that is pretty boring. I'm thinking of doing some flagstone walls up to about 8 feet, and then cap it with cedar T&G to the roof line. I can do the T&G no prob, although I'm getting a bit old to work on the ladder, but I've never done a bit of stone work.

http://www.ccsand.com/products/landscape-materials-a-supplies/flagstone

Looking at the Arizona moss, or the Grand Canyon to give plenty of color variation. Above that will be the med grade Cedar.

Is the stuff supported by any kind of steel framework? I'm going over simple ext grade siding. Do I need to use something to hold the stone up while the mortar sets? How thick do I put the mortar on the back side?

I'm guessing I have to do maybe a 2' layer at a time and let it set so there's no sag. I'm also guessing that I have to be careful about the grouting mix for the gaps, but I really don't have much of a clue.

If you've done vertical flagstone, and can give me some of the 'gotchas' that would be swell. I may wind up just hiring a guy, but I'll see if I can't do it myself. Pretty sure I could do the first layer about 2' up, but I want to go all the way to the top of a std garage height of 7' 10".
Click to expand...

Be cautious... the work itself is easy, as is designing it, but many jurisdictions require an engineer approved set of plans for masony walls higher than 4', and it can affect any future insurance claims.

In other words, find an engineer buddy who'll sign off on your drawings. :)
 
We make products used for molds by several large manufactured veneer stone companies.
It is usually a dyed concrete using very stable inorganic (mineral) dyes. All the ones I have been to have wall sections exposed for years. Based on how much is manufactured it must be very popular. They also usually have decades long warranties.

Have fun. Installing that stuff is way too much if a P.I.T.A
 
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