Anyone own/instruct out of a Champ/Cub/etc?

BellyUpFish

BellyUpFish

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Hey guys-

There is no local tail dragger for rent at our local airport and I've been thinking about buying a Champ or a Cub and am thinking I could also use it to give tailwheel instruction in as well.

I spoke with the airport management about a lease back and they basically laughed me out of the office talking about insurance costs well over $10,000 a year for a tail dragger..

Is this right? Seems crazy. There is another airport ~60 miles from here I rent a Champ for all the time. They're a smaller airport than my local airport and they rent a tail wheel aircraft..

Anyone doing this?

Mind sharing your premiums?
 
BellyUpFish said:
Hey guys-

There is no local tail dragger for rent at our local airport and I've been thinking about buying a Champ or a Cub and am thinking I could also use it to give tailwheel instruction in as well.

I spoke with the airport management about a lease back and they basically laughed me out of the office talking about insurance costs well over $10,000 a year for a tail dragger..

Is this right? Seems crazy. There is another airport ~60 miles from here I rent a Champ for all the time. They're a smaller airport than my local airport and they rent a tail wheel aircraft..

Anyone doing this?

Mind sharing your premiums?
Click to expand...
Insurance premiums really are the killer. You'll likely get quotes from $3,000-5,000 just for dual-only commercial use. The main problem is if you will get enough business for it to spread that out over X number of hours economically. It's hard. I fly a rental Cub with students on a regular basis, but as of right now it's the only tailwheel plane publicly available for rent in probably a 50 mile radius. And to solo it, you have to have 10+ hours of dual and your own insurance. It's a pretty risky proposition, but if you're willing to self insure it's doable. I'm hoping to end up with my own bird in the near future, if things work out. I figure it's only a matter of time before someone does a number on the rental Cub. Yeah, it's risky.
We may be getting some competition soon, but I am wondering if the competition will kill both of us, because if the number of hours flown aren't high enough, then the insurance is unfeasible.

Ryan
 
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Cool. Thanks for the reply. May not be worth the effort to use it for instruction.
 
BellyUpFish said:
Cool. Thanks for the reply. May not be worth the effort to use it for instruction.
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I intend to try on my own in the future... so don't take that as a total discouragement. I just see more of the realities from where I'm at.
Also, if you are thinking about getting into instructing tailwheel, take the advice that my old CFI boss gave me, and get at least a minimum of 100 hours of experience behind your belt before trying to teach someone else. He made me do that, and I'm glad for it. Teaching tailwheel is fun, but it is also a constant challenge.

Ryan
 
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Yeah, we were quoted about 8k on a Cub worth 50k.

Avemco offers a cool CFI-owned training plan, where you are limited to only 4 students at a time, and each much be named for a minimum of 30 days. It prevents churn, and limits their risk in exchange for limited premium. Also, the 4 nameds can solo the plane, and you can bill for-profit.

We pay appx $4800/yr on a C150 for "full ride" coverage, and we have a backup 150 under the Avemco plan for our long-term time builders, and it's appx $1800/yr.

Avemco doesn't do twins (under this program), and they may not do taildraggers either -- but it's worth a quick call to see. The CFI-owned plan is pretty cool for what it is, and fills a nice niche in the market.

$0.02

- Mike
 
RyanShort1 said:
Also, if you are thinking about getting into instructing tailwheel, take the advice that my old CFI boss gave me, and get at least a minimum of 100 hours of experience behind your belt before trying to teach someone else. He made me do that, and I'm glad for it. Teaching tailwheel is fun, but it is also a constant challenge.
Click to expand...

I've been instructing in tailwheels for a couple years, but generally in the owners aircraft, etc. I've got an RV-6 of my own, but I don't do any instruction in it.

schmookeeg said:
Avemco offers a cool CFI-owned training plan, where you are limited to only 4 students at a time, and each much be named for a minimum of 30 days. It prevents churn, and limits their risk in exchange for limited premium. Also, the 4 nameds can solo the plane, and you can bill for-profit.

We pay appx $4800/yr on a C150 for "full ride" coverage, and we have a backup 150 under the Avemco plan for our long-term time builders, and it's appx $1800/yr.

Avemco doesn't do twins (under this program), and they may not do taildraggers either -- but it's worth a quick call to see. The CFI-owned plan is pretty cool for what it is, and fills a nice niche in the market.

$0.02

- Mike
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I'll have to check it out. I was thinking about calling our insurance company tomorrow and seeing what they could do.

A friend of mine and I were thinking about buying something that excels at low and slow and we started thinking about giving instruction in whatever we wound up with, since we're both CFI's.
 
Bellyup, did I meet you at Billy's hangar the other day?
 
I think that instructing in it is one thing, but letting a student solo is what will put your insurance premium in Class E airspace.

Doc
 
MBDiagMan said:
I think that instructing in it is one thing, but letting a student solo is what will put your insurance premium in Class E airspace.

Doc
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Absolutely. I know a couple of TW instructors who won't permit solo flight.

$4500/year insurance premium for part time dual just doesn't add up.
 
dmccormack said:
Absolutely. I know a couple of TW instructors who won't permit solo flight.

$4500/year insurance premium for part time dual just doesn't add up.
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It doesn't really make sense, but it can get that high pretty easily, especially depending on the plane, and the hull value. A Cub for instance may have a higher a hull value than a 172...

Ryan
 
dmccormack said:
That quote ($4500) was for Flight instruction coverage only -- not hull.

:yikes:
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Parker Woodruff gave me a lower quote than that for dual-only for a Chief I'm interested in. Just am not sure I'm quite as financially solvent as I want to be just yet. I want to have it paid off cash outright, and a reserve first. The Chief I'm looking at also has a low oil pressure issue, which might be an expensive fix. The price is still reasonable, even with that...

Ryan
 
Yes low oil pressure is almost always a sign of bearing and journal wear, which means overhaul time.

Doc
 
MBDiagMan said:
Yes low oil pressure is almost always a sign of bearing and journal wear, which means overhaul time.

Doc
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It's a 65hp and it's possible that it's just the pump area on the back. Could be as cheap as a $1500 fix. If it's the bearings, I would be better off looking for a different plane. I could probably pick this one up for <$10,000.

Ryan
 
If I were to instruct/rent in a tail dragger I always thought it should be structured as a club... The students/renters would have to buy a share in the plane... It would be self insured for hull damage by the shares in the bank.... Public liability insurance would be bought by the club with each owner paying their share of the annual premium...
Now, I have not attempted to pitch Avemco on this, but with a low cost plane as the club's first, the numbers might work... Possibly in a few years the plane could be upgraded as the owner's hourly fees accumulate...

I know there are folks at my airport asking for tail dragger time... As the recession grinds on you would think demand for flight time would continue to get worse, but demand seems to be rising just a bit this summer compared to 3 years ago... Our local mechanic has the only plane for rent in the area, C172... It flew over 50 hours last month...


As an aside... I just bought a working farm and I am in the process of separating the house and garage from the farmland and selling them so I have been talking to the township inspectors, zoning, etc... In talking with the township assessor he told me that the rate of house sales is pretty much steady ( low of course)... But what he is really noticing more is that the the sales that are happening are changing hands at above the assessed value by 10%-15%... (In my case the property changed hands at more than a 15% increase) So then he has to increase the taxes on the house and the new owners have a fit.... He is thinking it is time to ask for a new state evaluation of properties in the township.. (boy, that will make him popular)

denny-o
 
No Champ or Cub, but we do have a S-LSA Rans S7, rents for $165 an hour and you must have 10 hours dual in it before you can rent it.
 
My lofty goal is to get my CFI before I retire four years from now. I would LOVE to do tailwheel training and will move toward that goal, but I fully expect that insurance cost will prevent me from doing so.

My plan at this point is to buy a decent VFR 150 as a trainer. I know of several people in my remote area that are begging for an opportunity to get their tailwheel endorsement. Their problem is not so much finding a tailwheel instructor, rather finding a tailwheel plane in which to train and solo.

Doc
 
Dean said:
No Champ or Cub, but we do have a S-LSA Rans S7, rents for $165 an hour and you must have 10 hours dual in it before you can rent it.
Click to expand...

Wow. $165/hour? That's crazy.

MBDiagMan said:
My lofty goal is to get my CFI before I retire four years from now. I would LOVE to do tailwheel training and will move toward that goal, but I fully expect that insurance cost will prevent me from doing so.

My plan at this point is to buy a decent VFR 150 as a trainer. I know of several people in my remote area that are begging for an opportunity to get their tailwheel endorsement. Their problem is not so much finding a tailwheel instructor, rather finding a tailwheel plane in which to train and solo.

Doc
Click to expand...

Just do it. :)
 
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