Any Parents in the Area Please Advise (long)

[Pi1otguy]

I have a cousin in the 2nd grade that I'm going to start hanging out with again (I'm freeing up some time). Given how often his mom tries to find some one to watch him I know that she'll be more then happen for me to take him somewhere. When I take him to the park or wherever I am working towards 3 main points that I feel is important for guys:

1. Hand - eye coordination & general fitness (throw an object with accuracy, shrink the belly)
2. Understand that rules/directions are for his protection
3. Learn to sense and mitigate danger/hazardous situations.

During 2006 and half of 2007 I took him places as my time permitted and made some progress on #1. Most of our outings involved some level of hazard so that #2 and #3 could be worked on. Nothing that truly life threatening. Just enough to cause small cuts, scraps, pain, or panic if he doesn't follow directions. I'd say that about 10 - 25% of the time he comes back with a cut or something his mom can complain about.

For example while leaving a park he ran down a hill covered with woodchips and a few small sturdy trees. I didn't tell him not to run down hill, but that he shouldn't due to slip hazard. Naturally he ran down the hill, slipped and got a few minor cuts and scraps on his legs and arm. Later that night his mom picks him up and is mad that his clothes got dirty and he got hurt but didn't make a really big deal of it. Fine.

A few weeks later I was trying to teach him to swim. I explained that he can not breathe underwater, got in the pool and walked him around so he could see where the deep end is. So as we are in the pool I keep reminding him not to go to the deep end everytime he strayed. I turned around to check the time and as I turn back around I see him heading to the deep end and decide he's got to be able to figure this one out before he gets in trouble. Amazingly he walked until the water was over his head and started to panic. I reached over and yanked him out immediately before he could even swallow any water. He was very upset that night and I expected his mom to be a little mad at me later that night too.

No harm, no foul I thought. His mom took his side as usual and got mad at my short explanation of "Told him to stay outta the deep end. He went to the deep end. He went under. I pulled him out. It's a life lesson." I just didn't care that she was mad because it seemed silly for her to be that upset.

Obviously, she hasn't told me not to watch her kid or explicitly give me limits so I assume she trust me just enough plus he generally enjoys our outings so I suppose I'm treading a thin line that I can't see. Now this year I'm sure we'll go through this stuff over and over as I teach him to ride a bike then take off the training wheels later this year.

Now that you've seen the back story, here is what I want to ask the parents (particularly moms) out there:

1. Are most moms generally this protective WRT minor cuts, dirty clothes, etc from outdoor activities?

2. Is there a way to explain this is part of being a guy? (activities that may cause minor injury)

3. When the training wheels come off I'm pretty sure we will have all sorts of mishaps resulting in cuts, scraps, and possible soreness. Any tips for addressing his mom's sensitivities?

 

[Ken Ibold]

Moms are WAY more sensitive to perceived danger than are dads. Unrelated men are even less so.

By 2nd grade, the kid knows the score. If he wants mom's attention and he knows "boo-boos" get it, well, you have your answer.

My kids are now 13, 11 and 9. We've been through the gamut of physical injuries (except casts). The youngest is rough and tumble. Plastic surgeon has been in his face due to a bicycle accident. He knows what it's like to get a CAT scan after taking a line drive to the face at 40 feet. He's lost fingernails, gotten cuts everywhere.

First kid: Mom and dad wig out over the slightest scratch.
Second kid: You're not hurt that bad. Please be more careful.
Third kid: Leave me alone unless there's blood or flames.

What you have here is a simple case of first child syndrome. You might dial up your supervision just a hair to acknowledge its existence while simultaneously downplaying it to mom. If you get defensive about it she will feed off it, so just dismiss it as "no big deal."

The one exception to this is the swimming incident. If he truly was very upset about it, he got scared. The emotional stuff is more complicated than a skinned knee or splinter in the hand, and you do need to take a bit more care there, if for no other reason than you don't want to make him afraid of the water.

As for getting rid of the training wheels -- that was some of the best fun I've had with my kids.

 

[flyersfan31]

Ken nailed it on the head.

As a stay-at-hom-dad, father of 2 girls, the contrast with mothers is very striking. I'm definitely more apt to sit and watch the kids from afar as they get up on their own after falling. My wife hovers over them to prevent the fall in the first place.

The pay-off with my approach? Well, my 4yr old did a Pete Rose on the driveway. Got up, looked at her hands, said "No blood, daddy." Kept right on going.

Men absolutely have a greater tolerance for the dirt, scratches, and bruises of daily kid life.

HOWEVER, there is always the lingering fear factor in the back of any parent's mind that a non-parent caregiver just isn't going to give 100% care and attention. That's just the way it is. You can't believe that anyone other than you is going to protect your kid they way you would. You can talk to your sister about it until you're blue in the face but it'll never sink in. You'll just have to keep it in mind.

 

[TMetzinger]

I had no problems with anything you did but the swimming thing - that was irresponsible.

Putting a kid in a situation where he can get mildly hurt is one thing. Putting a small kid in a situation where he can die (even if you're right there) is something else. And even if you pull him right out, the scare he gets (if simulated drowning is torture, what is REAL drowning?) will stay with him, and wreck the trust you're trying to build.


Mom's are sensitive - they think the fact the kid gets hurt meant you weren't paying attention, and most don't get the fact that you're letting the kid learn where the limits are, especially with first children. Getting the clothes dirty and stuff also translates directly to $$$ - if the clothing gets damaged or really dirty, it won't last as long. Kids clothes are crap nowadays compared to the Keds and Toughskins we used to wear, that you couldn't put holes in with anything less than a jacknife. We used to joke back then in the ambulance crews that for a kid to seriously hurt required a fall from more than three times their height, or enough force to tear their Toughskin jeans. The new stuff rips from sitting down outdoors.

 

[gibbons]

Ken is oh-so-right on this one. Just go to a park and watch kids who fall. Many times they don't cry or know they're hurt until mom (or dad) makes a big deal out of it. We were much more guilty of that with our first than with our second.

That said, when dealing with his mother remember this advice my dad gave me at an early age. "You may be a tough guy and not afraid of much, but you should always be afraid of a momma bear when you mess with her cubs." You've got to respect his mother's concerns, even if you think she's over the top. If it were your wife you'd have much more say in the whole matter of "over-mothering". As it is, you don't.

Finally, your desire to be a positive influence on the child is really admirable. But don't over think it. I'm not sure it's necessary to have any objective when playing with a 2nd grader than to have fun. Don't worry so much about teaching life lessons. Life has a way of doing that with or without you helping it along. Nice job on your part wanting to be involved.

 

[flyersfan31]

I have to disagree with Tim on the pool thing. I've been in that situation myself with my girls. I give'm just enough rope. My oldest went to the bottom twice, but since I was always close to her, I pulled her out as quickly as she went down.

Two ways to deal with the aftermath:
1) Sob and say "OHMIGOD Are you OK??? OH GOD OH GOD I WAS SO SCARED"
2) Wipe their face, hug them, and say "Great job keeping your mouth closed. See, you can go underwater ok, and Daddy is right here to help you. Nice work, just watch your step honey."

As long as you're keeping an eye on them, no problem. Now, turning your back to the pool to talk with your girlfriends, that's a problem. I've saved two little ones in that situation (kids go under, parents not even watching). Would you believe I didn't even get a thanks from one woman who turned around, saw her little darling at the bottom a good 6-8ft away, did nothing but scream, while I strode over and grabbed the little guy. Not even a thank you.

 

[Richard]

Just know you will NEVER ever win against a mom. So don't even 'go there' in the first place.

I have tried to be there for my nephews in the same manner as the OP. The kids and fathers are cool, the mothers consider me dangerous....

Tim, I firmly believe everyone should learn to swim. I learned by my father throwing me into the deep end saying, Sink or swim. Learn by immersion (literally). But I went on to surf large waves, look forward to open water dives (night included), swim competively in HS and college, and played water polo. Plus sail small boats across the Pacific. I have no fear of the water. And I know many who have had similar experiences.

 

[docmirror]

Ken is a good parent, he hit all the right notes. The only thing I'll add is that around 7 or 8, don't try talking down to him. Try some man to man type talk without the swearing, and you'll be surprised how much better it works than 'baby talk' that I hear all to often from moms.

 

[Diana]

Tim, I firmly believe everyone should learn to swim. I learned by my father throwing me into the deep end saying, Sink or swim. Learn by immersion (literally).

My brother had his son, Derrick, start swimming lessons when he was three. Unfortunately, the babysitter wasn't watching him closely enough one day, and Derrick drowned in the swimming pool. He was only a month older than my son. Our boys were close. Our family was devastated. So, I'm probably overly sensitive about this. Attending the funeral of a three-year-old is tough.

 

[Ghery]

As for getting rid of the training wheels -- that was some of the best fun I've had with my kids.

Two 'kids' (well, they're 31 and 27 now). I remember a looooong time ago when the training wheels came off our son's bike. I had been raising them a notch now and then when he wasn't looking and he wasn't having any trouble riding. They were a crutch. I finally said it was time for them to come off and you'd have thought the world was coming to an end. NO! I couldn't take them off. He wouldn't know how to ride! This, coming from the kid, not his mom. She was in on the game with me. I pointed out that they weren't touching the ground and hadn't in ages and took them off. He took off on his bike and never looked back. He must have been around 5 or 6 when that happened. Great fun! Sure increased his radius of action. He'd go a lot farther without training wheels than he would with them (even if they weren't touching the ground). Go figure.

 

[rottydaddy]

Moms look at their sons, even when they are grown men, and see a baby.
Sometimes I miss my mother's protective habits, and sometimes I think she's watching over me still.

It's powerful juju, that Mother stuff... don't fight it.

And for what it's worth, unless a kid is proficient swimming in water over his/her head, you should be in the water with them, close by, IMHO.

When I was little and not really swimming yet, my old man managed to get me to jump off a platform into a man-made lake with him in the water (not over his head), ready to help me if necessary- it was scary stuff for me, but he did it right: letting me get a feel for literally jumping into the deep end while being ready to easily pull me up if I panicked (which I did the first few times). After the first time I paddled to the float and hauled myself out, I wondered what the heck I was scared of.

Once I got the hang of it, I was trusted to swim out alone into the lake or the pool or even surf... but not before I showed I could at least get back in to shallow water on my own.
I was lucky my mother really loved swimming; she wasn't overly worried about me in the water... but she watched me and my brother like a hawk, ready to provide rescue and/or first aid, and all that mushy Mother stuff.

 

[Richard]

My brother had his son, Derrick, start swimming lessons when he was three. Unfortunately, the babysitter wasn't watching him closely enough one day, and Derrick drowned in the swimming pool. He was only a month older than my son. Our boys were close. Our family was devastated. So, I'm probably overly sensitive about this. Attending the funeral of a three-year-old is tough.

Oh man, I am so sorry Diana. That is indeed heart wretching.

 

[Pi1otguy]

It's powerful juju, that Mother stuff... don't fight it.

And for what it's worth, unless a kid is proficient swimming in water over his/her head, you should be in the water with them, close by, IMHO.

Duly noted. I guess I'll just have to carefully navigate the 'Mother stuff'. I just thought that maybe you guys had some magical phrase I'm suppose to say (without apologizing) that takes care of this from now into perpituity, but I guess not. I'll just tread carefully and suggest an old set of clothes even though he seems to out grow them before they have a real chance to get damaged.

WRT the pool, I did not leave the pool or anything so careless. I was obviously within arms reach of him since anything else would be careless. I do admit that I didn't immediately stop him because I honestly believed he would turn back or stop when the water reached his chin. I assumed he'd stop and remember he can't breathe underwater but apparently nature did not endow us with too many instincts in early life. He was more actually upset about my lack of emotional sensitivity then the event itself. I genuinely hope I'm not enough of a sadist to water board my own cousin as this entire thread would be a moot point.

Finally, your desire to be a positive influence on the child is really admirable. But don't over think it. I'm not sure it's necessary to have any objective when playing with a 2nd grader than to have fun. Don't worry so much about teaching life lessons. Life has a way of doing that with or without you helping it along. Nice job on your part wanting to be involved.

I suppose having objectives could be over thinking it a bit, but doesn't everyone have some point to these things in addition to fun? Don't parents have social objectives when they have birthday parties or help them out with Valentine's Day? They just don't write them out. Then again I could be expecting too much WRT the last two goals. I just remember how my parents never 'child proofed' anything but instead got me to think about my environment at an early age and spot situations that could hurt me.

 

[ScottM]

Now that you've seen the back story, here is what I want to ask the parents (particularly moms) out there:

1. Are most moms generally this protective WRT minor cuts, dirty clothes, etc from outdoor activities?

2. Is there a way to explain this is part of being a guy? (activities that may cause minor injury)

3. When the training wheels come off I'm pretty sure we will have all sorts of mishaps resulting in cuts, scraps, and possible soreness. Any tips for addressing his mom's sensitivities?

Did you not have a mom??

Heck yeah to all of that. My mom wanted me to sit at home and knit, she thought that until her dying day.

 

[Pi1otguy]

Did you not have a mom??

Yea, but my dad helped her to tone it down from an early age.

 

[Diana]

I just LOVE this photo! It speaks volumes.

 

[TMetzinger]

Just know you will NEVER ever win against a mom. So don't even 'go there' in the first place.

I have tried to be there for my nephews in the same manner as the OP. The kids and fathers are cool, the mothers consider me dangerous....

Tim, I firmly believe everyone should learn to swim. I learned by my father throwing me into the deep end saying, Sink or swim. Learn by immersion (literally). But I went on to surf large waves, look forward to open water dives (night included), swim competively in HS and college, and played water polo. Plus sail small boats across the Pacific. I have no fear of the water. And I know many who have had similar experiences.

Everyone SHOULD learn to swim. Learning by immersion can work on older kids, but it's not recommended for second graders. My daughter (4) is comfortable in the water and has had lessons, but is not yet what I consider a swimmer, and I wouldn't let her go under.

Speaking as a former USCG rescue swimmer and a current Water Safety Instructor - I _still_ think letting your young child learn "the hard way" is counterproductive.