Any landing you walk away from....

I did something similar right after I passed my check ride. I came in WAY too high and tried to force it down and when things went sideways the brain just kinda locked up and I forgot what to do. If the runway didn't happen to be 250 feet wide I would have done the same as him. I finally remembered to fly the plane and got it back under control somehow without hurting anything.
 
Salty said:
I did something similar right after I passed my check ride. I came in WAY too high and tried to force it down and when things went sideways the brain just kinda locked up
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That's why someone shouldn't be endorsed to solo until their past the brain lock stage.
 
Or be given a certificate, apparently.
 
Bill Jennings said:
That's why someone shouldn't be endorsed to solo until their past the brain lock stage.
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How does a CFI identify, or activate, that brain lock stage during training?

When I learned to cave dive, my instructor would create events during a dive (basically harassing an unsuspecting student while underwater, like knocking your mask off or wrapping a guideline around your fin) for the purpose of inducing stress to see how the student would respond. Does he stay calm and deal with the problem, does he freeze up, does he panic and lose control,....?

When I was learning to fly, though, mostly I was inducing panic in my instructors.
 
Half Fast said:
How does a CFI identify, or activate, that brain lock stage during training?
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I'm not a CFI, nor did I sleep in Holiday Inn Express, but I would hope that a good CFI as the pilot approaches solo waits further into bad events before intervening to see if the student knows how to fix what is wrong, or if they brain lock instead.
 
Half Fast said:
How does a CFI identify, or activate, that brain lock stage during training?

When I learned to cave dive, my instructor would create events during a dive (basically harassing an unsuspecting student while underwater, like knocking your mask off or wrapping a guideline around your fin) for the purpose of inducing stress to see how the student would respond. Does he stay calm and deal with the problem, does he freeze up, does he panic and lose control,....?

When I was learning to fly, though, mostly I was inducing panic in my instructors.
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I'm not a CFI, but I'd imagine the simulated engine out scenarios give a good indication of a student's ability to perform under pressure. Stalls, too. And even normal landings--these all are stressful events for a low-hours student. They're not perfect predictors, but anyone experiencing brain lock with an instructor present is unlikely to be signed off to solo.

I can relate to the cave diving scenarios. While not full cave certified, I did enough, plus a lot of technical wreck diving training, to have been put through the mill with masks knocked off, tank valves turned off, regulators stolen, intentional entanglements, staged silt-outs, and getting really really stuck twice under the watchful eye of an instructor. It saved my bacon a few times on real-world dives.
 
danhagan said:
He failed that too ... but at least this will live somewhere on the internet for eternity awaiting his first job interview:eek::confused:
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Sorta like that guy Hogg if he ever showed up to be a commercial helicopter pilot?
 
Salty said:
Or be given a certificate, apparently.
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for a landing like that? no.. no they should not. Not until they've mastered it and passed the brain lock out portion (which can, and does happen to lots of otherwise competent pilots at some point in their training)

if we knew more about the video might be easier to lay blame on a crappy school, foreign school hours requirements, sloppy CFI'ing, etc. But as it stands, this dude wrecked a plane.. that's not common for a student pilot and is not part of most pilot's experience book. No, I do not want an Uber driver who caused a wreck, and given the choice in a pilot who crashed a plane in training vs one who did not, I'm picking the one who did not.

Salty said:
I finally remembered to fly the plane and got it back under control somehow without hurting anything
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and therein lies the difference. Your runway was wider but you stayed on it. This guy should not have been flying into a narrow runway like that if he wasn't sharp enough to handle it
 
He did better than one of the student pilots doing a first solo in the 150 that I got my retread in - "panicked" (per NTSB) and put it into a plowed field instead of on the runway. NTSB listed the aircraft as destroyed, but it did make a comeback (I flew it a few years after...)
 
One of the only two go arounds I was compelled into doing the plane veered to the right just before touchdown. I think it was a weird wind gust but whatever the reason full power with full flaps just ten feet or so above the weeds was unnerving. It all worked out but you can always go around. Until you can’t.
 
AggieMike88 said:
.... and that's why go around cannot be over emphasized
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No kidding.

I have an older video of mine up on youtube where I had something similar going on, but ended up immediately executing a go around after very briefly touching the ground. I'm not proud of it, I needed to stay low for longer and didn't which led to being uncomfortable close to some trees for a few seconds, but ultimately the next landing was much better.
 
woodchucker said:
One of the only two go arounds I was compelled into doing the plane veered to the right just before touchdown. I think it was a weird wind gust but whatever the reason full power with full flaps just ten feet or so above the weeds was unnerving. It all worked out but you can always go around. Until you can’t.
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I trained in a C-152 here in the SW in summer and with the CFI on board we were at max weight with only 14-16 gallons of fuel. That said, he liked pushing mid afternoon flights to contend with winds out here. Our "go-arounds" consisted of often "re-settling" back on the runway ... he loved calling a go-around just as the mains rolled on ... required being aligned with the runway at all times or bad things would happen.
 
steingar said:
What I really, really don't get. Ok, the guy pranged an airplane. OK, he had a Go Pro camera running. Were it me the first thing I would have done is erase the damn footage, not put it on youtube!
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The first thing I might have done would be to shut off the fuel, mags, and master before worrying about grabbing the camera.
 
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Needs more epaulets on those shoulders. Forgot to check for them on preflight.

Looking he was trying to Put the Plane down with about 90kts of speed!
 
So the $64k question is was that the end of his professional aviation pursuits or is he still hoping to get a flying job someday?

Followup question: If you're a chief pilot and his resume came across your desk and a google search of his name brought you to that video, do you still consider hiring him?
 
Juliet Hotel said:
Followup question: If you're a chief pilot and his resume came across your desk and a google search of his name brought you to that video, do you still consider hiring him?
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Some of the first job low pay operations will hire anyone that walks in the door. If he lives through that he will be Ok.

(as long as he makes it through flight training)
 
Maybe he can get a job with the LLC that owns 731NR...

(too cruel?)
 
Looked gusty, and he was hot. I thought he wasn't bad until he touched down and expected to stay down, but he needed to shed 20 or more knots. I'm thinking students should not be using video cameras on solos, but that's just me.
 
It looks like he put in left rudder just before he left the runway. I would have been standing on that right rudder during that.
 
PaulS said:
It looks like he put in left rudder just before he left the runway. I would have been standing on that right rudder during that.
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Until he went off the runway he had the option to get back in the air and go around... but that’s the difference between going for the ride and being in control ...
 
PaulS said:
Looked gusty, and he was hot. I thought he wasn't bad until he touched down and expected to stay down, but he needed to shed 20 or more knots. I'm thinking students should not be using video cameras on solos, but that's just me.
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I'd be fine with them using cameras. It wasn't the camera that made the plane way too fast on landing.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
I'd be fine with them using cameras. It wasn't the camera that made the plane way too fast on landing.
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Yeah, I'm not an instructor so it doesn't matter what I think, but if you notice, he just crashed an airplane, what's the first thing he does?
 
I think for a student there's too much distraction to be operating cameras. If the instructor took care of the cameras and the student focused on flying, I think there's value there.
 
Salty said:
I think for a student there's too much distraction to be operating cameras. If the instructor took care of the cameras and the student focused on flying, I think there's value there.
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Agreed, while an instructor is there, I think it's great. But alone, I've had mounts come loose during take off, cameras beeping during critical phases, they can be a distraction.
 
Salty said:
I think for a student there's too much distraction to be operating cameras. If the instructor took care of the cameras and the student focused on flying, I think there's value there.
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Are you familiar with GoPros? You mount it in the back, you turn it on. You're done. Go fly, retrieve sd card when finished.
 
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SToL said:
Are you familiar with GoPros? You mount it in the back, you turn it on. You're done. Go fly, retrieve sim card when finished.
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ROTFL

You obviously are not familiar with goPros, and you're ignoring behavior like what is shown in this video. His focus was not in the right place. It's painfully obvious that the only thought running through his mind during this disaster was the camera.

I've been flying a lot with GoPros lately. Not sure if I've have two flights in a row where something didn't go wrong with something.
 
Salty said:
I think for a student there's too much distraction to be operating cameras. If the instructor took care of the cameras and the student focused on flying, I think there's value there.
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If he had been operating a camera, then I'd agree. But the camera was just stuck to the back of the seat. I'm not sure what you think you saw, but he never looked at the camera.

He landed in a slip, which means he had in right aileron and left rudder for alignment, he obviously didn't release the left rudder on nose wheel touchdown. I'll bet he doesn't do that again, so I'm ok if he learns from this.
 
bflynn said:
If he had been operating a camera, then I'd agree. But the camera was just stuck to the back of the seat.

He landed in a slip, which means he had in right aileron and left rudder for alignment, he obviously didn't release the left rudder on nose wheel touchdown. I'll bet he doesn't do that again, so I'm ok if he learns from this.
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Operating the camera was higher on his list than operating the aircraft. As has already been mentioned he didn't shut off fuel, mags, master. He grabbed the camera.
 
PaulS said:
Yeah, I'm not an instructor so it doesn't matter what I think, but if you notice, he just crashed an airplane, what's the first thing he does?
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He reaches for the camera. Which is proof of absolutely nothing.
 
Salty said:
ROTFL

You obviously are not familiar with goPros, and you're ignoring behavior like what is shown in this video.

His focus was not in the right place. It's painfully obvious that the only thought running through his mind during this disaster was the camera.
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I'm pretty sure that since I own two GoPros and have been using them for about 8+ years, I'm pretty familiar with them and I have no problem with mine other that poor battery life. But YMMV, obviously.

And now you're a mind reader too. Good to know. You could have said, "It's painfully obvious that the only thought running through his mind AFTER this disaster was the camera." and there would have been no debate. Otherwise, it's simply your speculation.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
He reaches for the camera. Which is proof of absolutely nothing.
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I beg to differ, it's proof his mind is on a stupid camera rather than the problem at hand. He just crashed an airplane, in which he is still sitting, battery switch on, mags hot, fuel switch on, possibly a breached tank and who knows what else. His first impulse should be looking for a fire from a breached tank, securing the airplane OR getting the F out of the airplane he just crashed. I use go pros in my airplane, I guarantee should I ever be as unfortunate as this guy was, the last thing I will think of is those stupid cameras.
 
Salty said:
It's painfully obvious that the only thought running through his mind during this disaster was the camera.
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I see absolutely nothing in the video which gives even the slightest indication of that much less making it painfully obvious.

I've been flying a lot with GoPros lately. Not sure if I've have two flights in a row where something didn't go wrong with something.
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Did you try to land way too fast or otherwise end up with an NTSB reportable incident during any of those flights?

I've been observing something that I think is a relatively common human nature trait in some of my direct reports at work lately. And that is that we kind of assume that we ourselves are above average in terms of talent and aptitude and at the same time we assume those whom we've never met are below average up to and until we've met them and talked with them, at which point we form an opinion based on metrics that we've actually observed.

You've tried to use a go pro in flight and have had trouble with it working correctly. You haven't allowed any of that to ever distract you to the point causing a crash because you're just that gat d*mn good at what you do. But this schmuck? Clearly he was having trouble with his gopro functioning properly (even though the video would suggest it was working fine) and clearly that malfunction was the thing that distracted him enough to cause him to have a landing incident because lets face it, he sucks that much.

I think I've been in agreement with you on most things you've posted, but I have to part company on this one I'm afraid. There is no question that he was way behind the plane and totally gooched the landing. But unless you can show me evidence that every other student who ever curled up a plane during a botched landing made sure the absolute first thing they did after the plane stopped moving was turn off the fuel valve and switch off the master, that dog just ain't gonna hunt for me.

Lookup the Citation submarine at Bader field on the youtubes. That guy was clearly behind the airplane when he landed. And he clearly got out of the airplane after the movement stopped without turning off the fuel valves or the master or the ignitors. And at least as far as we can tell, he did not have any kind of camera in the cockpit distracting him during landing.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
I see absolutely nothing in the video which gives even the slightest indication of that much less making it painfully obvious.

Did you try to land way too fast or otherwise end up with an NTSB reportable incident during any of those flights?

I've been observing something that I think is a relatively common human nature trait in some of my direct reports at work lately. And that is that we kind of assume that we ourselves are above average in terms of talent and aptitude and at the same time we assume those whom we've never met are below average up to and until we've met them and talked with them, at which point we form an opinion based on metrics that we've actually observed.

You've tried to use a go pro in flight and have had trouble with it working correctly. You haven't allowed any of that to ever distract you to the point causing a crash because you're just that gat d*mn good at what you do. But this schmuck? Clearly he was having trouble with his gopro functioning properly (even though the video would suggest it was working fine) and clearly that malfunction was the thing that distracted him enough to cause him to have a landing incident because lets face it, he sucks that much.

I think I've been in agreement with you on most things you've posted, but I have to part company on this one I'm afraid. There is no question that he was way behind the plane and totally gooched the landing. But unless you can show me evidence that every other student who ever curled up a plane during a botched landing made sure the absolute first thing they did after the plane stopped moving was turn off the fuel valve and switch off the master, that dog just ain't gonna hunt for me.

Lookup the Citation submarine at Bader field on the youtubes. That guy was clearly behind the airplane when he landed. And he clearly got out of the airplane after the movement stopped without turning off the fuel valves or the master or the ignitors. And at least as far as we can tell, he did not have any kind of camera in the cockpit distracting him during landing.
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so we disagree. I think the fact that he even remembered the camera at all, but not to turn the gas off says a lot. I think students are already easily distracted, and I’ve seen first hand students screwing with cameras and missing the point of the lessons.
 
Salty said:
so we disagree. I think the fact that he even remembered the camera at all, but not to turn the gas off says a lot. I think students are already easily distracted, and I’ve seen first hand students screwing with cameras and missing the point of the lessons.
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Yep we disagree. On this anyway. ;)
 
NTSB Factual Report
On July 24, 2005, about 1430 Alaska daylight time, a wheel ski-equipped Cessna 185 airplane, N332DG, sustained substantial damage when it nosed over after departing the runway during the landing roll at the Talkeetna Airport, Talkeetna, Alaska. The airplane was being operated as a visual flight rules (VFR) local area sightseeing flight under Title 14, CFR Part 135, when the accident occurred. The airplane was operated by Doug Geeting Aviation Inc., Talkeetna. The airline transport certificated pilot, and the two passengers, were not injured.
 
I think a lot of people are assuming he knew to turn off the gas and the mixture, master. I’m pretty sure if I had done this on my solo, I would not have thought about it.
 
SToL said:
NTSB Factual Report
On July 24, 2005, about 1430 Alaska daylight time, a wheel ski-equipped Cessna 185 airplane, N332DG, sustained substantial damage when it nosed over after departing the runway during the landing roll at the Talkeetna Airport, Talkeetna, Alaska. The airplane was being operated as a visual flight rules (VFR) local area sightseeing flight under Title 14, CFR Part 135, when the accident occurred. The airplane was operated by Doug Geeting Aviation Inc., Talkeetna. The airline transport certificated pilot, and the two passengers, were not injured.
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?
Interesting twist. Can you provide the evidence that leads you to connect this report to the video in question?
 
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